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betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.
Funkyterrance wrote:betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.
I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
KraphtOne wrote:i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"
AAFitz wrote:KraphtOne wrote:i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"
I play trench so much now, I actually say shit, I didnt realize it wasnt trench!
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
Dukasaur wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
I'd say it's the opposite.
Trench plays out much more like a real wargame. Risk (and regular Risk-based CC) is basically an abomination, in that as long as your troops are winning, you can continue advancing indefinitely. This leads to the Escalating Sweep, which I do admit is a great high, but it's not the way normal Avalon Hill or any other normal wargames play out. In most (non-Risk) wargames troops have a finite movement (or impulse, or some other term) and cannot move more than their specified movement in a turn. That might not be exactly what Trench is, but it's closer to it that freewheeling escalators.
So, I would say that non-Trench is counter-intuitive to a new player, and Trench, where once you capture an area you have a decent chance to hold it for a while, is much more what a regular person would expect from a wargame.
Just_essence wrote:But if you are used to Risk, Trench Warfare is the more counter-intuitive way to play.
Funkyterrance wrote:Dukasaur wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
I'd say it's the opposite.
Trench plays out much more like a real wargame. Risk (and regular Risk-based CC) is basically an abomination, in that as long as your troops are winning, you can continue advancing indefinitely. This leads to the Escalating Sweep, which I do admit is a great high, but it's not the way normal Avalon Hill or any other normal wargames play out. In most (non-Risk) wargames troops have a finite movement (or impulse, or some other term) and cannot move more than their specified movement in a turn. That might not be exactly what Trench is, but it's closer to it that freewheeling escalators.
So, I would say that non-Trench is counter-intuitive to a new player, and Trench, where once you capture an area you have a decent chance to hold it for a while, is much more what a regular person would expect from a wargame.
Opposite of what, specifically?
I'm assuming you mean the part about a new player not having a chance in a trench game?
Yes.
If so, my original point was that most people come here knowing how to play risk at least as it exists as a board game and therefore have the basic tools needed to play a non-trench game. Everyone who has played the RL version is aware of what happens when an escalating game progresses
No.
but different types of reinforcements/spoils are one thing, trench warfare is more a less a whole new and different animal.
Dukasaur wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:Dukasaur wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
I'd say it's the opposite.
Trench plays out much more like a real wargame. Risk (and regular Risk-based CC) is basically an abomination, in that as long as your troops are winning, you can continue advancing indefinitely. This leads to the Escalating Sweep, which I do admit is a great high, but it's not the way normal Avalon Hill or any other normal wargames play out. In most (non-Risk) wargames troops have a finite movement (or impulse, or some other term) and cannot move more than their specified movement in a turn. That might not be exactly what Trench is, but it's closer to it that freewheeling escalators.
So, I would say that non-Trench is counter-intuitive to a new player, and Trench, where once you capture an area you have a decent chance to hold it for a while, is much more what a regular person would expect from a wargame.
Opposite of what, specifically?
I'm assuming you mean the part about a new player not having a chance in a trench game?
Yes.
If so, my original point was that most people come here knowing how to play risk at least as it exists as a board game and therefore have the basic tools needed to play a non-trench game. Everyone who has played the RL version is aware of what happens when an escalating game progresses
No.
but different types of reinforcements/spoils are one thing, trench warfare is more a less a whole new and different animal.
I had played Risk before coming to CC, but never escalating; always just normal flat-rate risk. Escalating is something I only discovered on CC. I know my experience is not typical and escalating is actually more common, but I guess the limited sample of people I met in my life is a statistical anomaly.
But in any case Risk is a children's game; an entry-level oddity that one plays until one discovers real wargames. But once you do start playing real wargames, like Avalon Hill's Stalingrad or Avalanche's Third Reich, you soon learn about movement limits and troop impulses, and even if you never play any wargames and only study war through books, still you can't escape the notion that an army can only move so far in a day, and the Risk idea that you can rush from Hong Kong to Dakar in a single turn is counter-intuitive.
Still, even if Risk was your only exposure to wargaming, normal flat rate risk still requires three or four turns to clean up after you have achieved dominance. Not like escalating at all.
(And trust me, I'm not knocking Esc. I love the feeling of an escalating sweep! It's just something new that I discovered after joining CC, not what I expected.)
KraphtOne wrote:i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"
Funkyterrance wrote:Opposite of what, specifically?
I'm assuming you mean the part about a new player not having a chance in a trench game? If so, my original point was that most people come here knowing how to play risk at least as it exists as a board game and therefore have the basic tools needed to play a non-trench game. Everyone who has played the RL version is aware of what happens when an escalating game progresses but different types of reinforcements/spoils are one thing, trench warfare is more a less a whole new and different animal.
generalhead wrote:There are probably so many trench games out there due to there is a trench medal now.
maasman wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:Opposite of what, specifically?
I'm assuming you mean the part about a new player not having a chance in a trench game? If so, my original point was that most people come here knowing how to play risk at least as it exists as a board game and therefore have the basic tools needed to play a non-trench game. Everyone who has played the RL version is aware of what happens when an escalating game progresses but different types of reinforcements/spoils are one thing, trench warfare is more a less a whole new and different animal.
I think you're oversimplfying how standard the rules of risk are for people. Every time I meet new people that play, they have different rules. I have yet to meet a person that has used the exact same ruleset as another person assuming they haven't met. To say any random new person coming here is knowledgeable about the basic CC settings is foolish.
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