The Pope / Biden laying down the law!!!

[saxitoxin]

Duk is right. Massachusetts was founded as a Puritan homeland. The point was not religious freedom, the point was freedom from Roman and Canterbury influence. Until like the 1740s only members of the state church could serve in the Great and General Court.

America evolved into a bastion of economic and intellectual liberty, but with a realization that those things could only exist in a society free from Popery. Which is one reason Jefferson was so adamant about the evils of the Roman cult. Religious tolerance was designed chiefly to stop communal infighting among Protestant denominations, prevent an interstate religious civil war, and free the Quakers and Amish from persecution. Only with the 14th Amendment did it come to equate with our contemporary ideas of religious freedom.

Rhode Island continued to have a state church until the Dorr Rebellion in the 1840s.

Popery finally became semi normalized when we needed to import vast numbers of Irish and Italians to settle the frontier and the Irish and Italians corrupted the national mindset and caused the nation to degenerate, culminating in the election of JFK who nearly led the nation off the cliff of nuclear war in service to his Jesuit master, probably forcing Gen. Curtis LeMay and patriotic officers to intervene to conclude his term in office.

[mookiemcgee]

Does Saxi consider himself a religious person? Is he Atheist or Agnostic? Or perhaps... he considers himself to be a god?

[saxitoxin]

Does Saxi consider himself a religious person? Is he Atheist or Agnostic? Or perhaps... he considers himself to be a god?

You don't need to enjoy broccoli to recognize it is healthy for people. You can smoke while still accepting it's unhealthy.

Protestantism has been demonstrated as the most effective doctrinal foundation for a nation and should be promoted. Clericalism is dangerous and should be merely tolerated. Religious belief or non-belief can exist independent of acceptance of those two facts.

[mookiemcgee]

I don't recommending smoking broccoli, the chlorophyll is really bad for you when inhaled.

fwiw it was just a sincere question and wasn't intended to be pointed towards the ongoing conversation in this thread.

EIP 4844 tomorrow, Proto danksharding bitches!!! get ready for ETH L2 season to blow up over the coming months.

THIS IS A DUNE THREAD

[jusplay4fun]

The USA was founded on religious FREEDOM,

A fantasy you like to tell yourselves..

Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics,

Yes, Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics, by enlightened Englishmen. Long before the Revolution, Maryland was taken over by Protestants who swarmed its borders, used electoral tricks to seize power, and then changed its constitution to ban Catholics from political office and resume the persecution that Catholics had come there to be free of.

Massachusetts, as a refuge for what was called the Puritans (or Pilgrims).

Massachusetts was such an intolerant theocracy that at least two other colonies -- Connecticut and Rhode Island -- had to be founded as refuges for Puritans fleeing from persecution by their own brethren in Massachusetts.

Arguably New Hampshire could fall into that category also, as it was settled under Mass's hegemony by people who didn't really want to be harassed by the Thought Police in Boston.

New York, New Jersey, and Delaware were commercial enterprises by the Dutch and the Swedes that were stolen by the British through raw force.

The Carolinas and Georgia were founded explicitly as places for rich white farmers to exploit slave labour. Virginia was originally settled for different reasons, but fell into the slavery camp early on.

PA became so for Quakers (Friends of Jesus)

This is the only one of the original 13 where your thesis holds more-or-less true. Pennsylvania stands alone as the only one that was fairly true to its stated goals of religious tolerance (although even there, "religious freedom" still only meant "religious freedom for Christians").

One part of the religious freedom was that the dominant group wanted religious freedom for themselves, but not for others.

Truest thing you've said. The so-called "religious freedom" of the original colonies in most cases only meant for their dominant power group, and almost always involved intolerance and persecution for everyone else.

You post mostly a difference of interpretation of the facts, Duk. Yes, I am aware of the situation in Maryland, but did not see the need to bring that up; you did and good for you. That Massachusetts was intolerant: NO DOUBT. Some or most New England colonies were founded by those fleeing religious tyranny in MA; yes, little doubt.

The religious freedom I cite is 1) not perfect and 2) diverse 3) not a straight line, and 4) was mostly freedom from the official state religion of the Church of England. Freedom from Religious persecution that Europe experienced is my main point. We did not have a slaughter of one religious group by another as happened in great numbers in Europe. Intolerance did exist, but the USA was much better than Europe. The Bill of Rights and, specifically, the separation of Church and State are my key supporting points. The Bill of Rights happened due mostly to Jefferson and Madison in Virginia, which for the most part was dominated by the Church of England and rich white plantation owners (as Duk basically stated). Does Canada have anything like the Bill of Rights? I will plead guilty of not knowing.

That Protestantism is the best, as per saxi allegation: mostly fantasy by him, like that the sky is falling fantasy. The domination by any Protestant group can have negative impacts and is easily proven by the MA experience, especially the witch trials in Salem. The huge intolerance of the Puritans is more proof of saxi's fantasy.

Europe was during the time 1500-1800 (approximately) was torn apart by religious intelerance, persecution, and killings. And do not forget the Inquisition. The USA avoided MOST of that, but some of that, especially intolerance, bled into the USA. That is my main point, that and the Bill of Rights. To me, these spell religious freedom, but NOT perfect freedom. The fight in Europe, mostly western Europe, was the fight over which form of Christianity would dominate. (The religious battles in Eastern Europe were fought mostly by three main factions: Muslims, Orthodox, and Catholics. There may have been Prostestants, but I am not aware of a significant historical presence in Eastern Europe.)

[saxitoxin]

That Protestantism is the best, as per saxi allegation: mostly fantasy by him, like that the sky is falling fantasy.

To clarify, I merely said that Protestantism is superior to Catholicism. You're free to disagree, just realize you're staking out a novel position that puts you not only in disagreement with me but with all of the founders of this country, including Thomas Jefferson (whom you weirdly discard as some random guy, as opposed to the intellectual father of the country), who all viewed Popery as at-odds with the nation's founding ethos. Catholicism -- by effectively rejecting the Priesthood of All Believers and Sola Scriptura, and ordaining the pope's henchmen as interlocutors of Jesus Christ - is anti-republican.

Jefferson was doubtfully even Christian and he agreed that Catholicism was a foreign and malign influence.

"We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition."
- Jefferson - https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 06-02-0446

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty."
- Jefferson - https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 07-02-0167

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government."
- Jefferson - https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 07-02-0011

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty."
- Jefferson - https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 07-02-0167

You're not American if you owe your first allegiance to the high priest of hocus pocus, seated on his throne in Rome.

[bigtoughralf]

Sounds like the average founding father to me. No wonder it took the US more than 200 years of existing before it would allow black people to get on the same bus as white people.

...

It is argued by some that Moslem nations still have slaves today.

You are absolutely obsessed aren't you. I say something about racial segregation in the US, and your response is 'what about Muslims'.

jp, are you one of the people in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oi1JdSPcIc0

[Pack Rat]

Sounds like the average founding father to me. No wonder it took the US more than 200 years of existing before it would allow black people to get on the same bus as white people.

...

It is argued by some that Moslem nations still have slaves today.

You are absolutely obsessed aren't you. I say something about racial segregation in the US, and your response is 'what about Muslims'.

jp, are you one of the people in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oi1JdSPcIc0

His hatred for non-whites and whites who don't bow down to the philosophy of fascism aka MAGA is crystal clear.

[ConfederateSS]

Duk is right. Massachusetts was founded as a Puritan homeland. The point was not religious freedom, the point was freedom from Roman and Canterbury influence. Until like the 1740s only members of the state church could serve in the Great and General Court.

America evolved into a bastion of economic and intellectual liberty, but with a realization that those things could only exist in a society free from Popery. Which is one reason Jefferson was so adamant about the evils of the Roman cult. Religious tolerance was designed chiefly to stop communal infighting among Protestant denominations, prevent an interstate religious civil war, and free the Quakers and Amish from persecution. Only with the 14th Amendment did it come to equate with our contemporary ideas of religious freedom.

Rhode Island continued to have a state church until the Dorr Rebellion in the 1840s.

Popery finally became semi normalized when we needed to import vast numbers of Irish and Italians to settle the frontier and the Irish and Italians corrupted the national mindset and caused the nation to degenerate, culminating in the election of JFK who nearly led the nation off the cliff of nuclear war in service to his Jesuit master, probably forcing Gen. Curtis LeMay and patriotic officers to intervene to conclude his term in office.

--------Still waiting what the professor(jp) has to say about a Catholic Irishman stealing the White House from Nixon in 1960 A.D...With dead people voting in Chicago, that fact has already been proven...They would take names off of grave markers,in Chicago elections, the dead would vote more than 2/3 times each...With the Chicago mayor and Illinois Gov. handing the election to Jfk...That should of been a 2000 A.D.,Florida,style election...where the Supreme Court steps in...
---------But Saxi...The Irish didn't settle the frontier...They were slaves going east to west, with the Chinese slaves going west to east...Beaten as every layer of track was laid down...To open the trans con. railway.....After that...Irish don't apply signs everywhere...So much for settling the West...I think it was hard to elect a Catholic...Because, many thought, The Pope would be running America...through The President, taking orders from GOD/via The Pope...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[jusplay4fun]

Jefferson was a great thinker and a key Founding Father. Yes, all that. I never disputed any such thing, saxi. And he was instrumental in getting the Bill of Rights written:

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom is a statement about both freedom of conscience and the principle of separation of church and state. Written by Thomas Jefferson and passed by the Virginia General Assembly on January 16, 1786, it is the forerunner of the first amendment protections for religious freedom.

What saxi's fails to consider is that democracy as practice in the young USA, as Jefferson lives and writes, was NEW and EXPERIMENTAL. Of course, no nation had ...... (name it, including priests)... AND free civil government because NO ONE did it successfully UNTIL US. PERIOD.

saxi posted:

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government."
- Jefferson - https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 07-02-0011

As I said before, religious freedom was not immediate, had many experiments and failures, BUT is HERE NOW.

To me the KEY is that the USA experimented with religious freedom and did so successfully, IN THE LONG RUN and up to NOW, as evidenced by 1) our relatively long history; 2) The Bill of Rights, and 3) the emulation of our constitution and form of government (in many areas and including religious freedom) by many nations.

ALSO: The Protestant work ethic has been very helpful in building this nation, the USA, to be as great as it is today. However, having different viewpoints has been a major factor in American politics for a long time and also contributes to our Greatness. Today it seems that some, like saxi, want to return to the intolerance of the Puritans of Massachusetts and exclude and denigrate the views of others.

The JFK election of 1960 is another indication of the tolerance of people in this nation, when his Catholicism was questioned. Their is evidence of election fraud, but, give Richard Nixon credit, he did not dispute it. Nixon understood that fighting the election result would have been divisive for this nation. This is VERY UNLIKE the actions and words of the spoiled brat and sore loser Donald Trump in 2020.

[saxitoxin]

Most of the condemned in Salem were truly guilty of witchcraft.

[ConfederateSS]

-----In 2000 A.D...A.D...Al Gore was screwed the same way Nixon was..1 State, 1 Gov...Who just happens to be , the Winner's Brother and son of a former President... ...Trump has the right to challenge... Hillary has never accepted Trump won fair and square in 2016 A.D...It is not crying to challenge the election...Here in Detroit, there was some freaky sh*t going on at the count at Cobo Hall/Wayne County...Trump isn't spoiled....Trump is a typical loud mouth New Yorker...They're all Jackasses...
-------- But like Nixon, who lost, and came back to win 2 terms....Trump is coming back to win, and pull a Grover Cleveland....Who and the hell , would of ever thought that would ever happen again..... Thank the Democrats for that(not the old school Dems. ,the New Democrats, Radical LEFT)...Think about it...If they didn't cheat in 2020 A.D...Trump wins....He would be done in January...Mike Pence would be running against...Gov. Newsom,Cali.... Newsom would kick Pence's ass... Democrats only have themselves to blame... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[Pack Rat]

-----In 2000 A.D...A.D...Al Gore was screwed the same way Nixon was..1 State, 1 Gov...Who just happens to be , the Winner's Brother and son of a former President... ...Trump has the right to challenge... Hillary has never accepted Trump won fair and square in 2016 A.D...It is not crying to challenge the election...Here in Detroit, there was some freaky sh*t going on at the count at Cobo Hall/Wayne County...Trump isn't spoiled....Trump is a typical loud mouth New Yorker...They're all Jackasses...
-------- But like Nixon, who lost, and came back to win 2 terms....Trump is coming back to win, and pull a Grover Cleveland....Who and the hell , would of ever thought that would ever happen again..... Thank the Democrats for that(not the old school Dems. ,the New Democrats, Radical LEFT)...Think about it...If they didn't cheat in 2020 A.D...Trump wins....He would be done in January...Mike Pence would be running against...Gov. Newsom,Cali.... Newsom would kick Pence's ass... Democrats only have themselves to blame... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Hillary Clintin in fact made a call to Trump to congratulate on winning. Here is her full concession speech....I know facts are hard to swallow among the GQP people.

[jusplay4fun]

Most of the condemned in Salem were truly guilty of witchcraft.

Not true; simply more saxi fake news.

[ConfederateSS]

-----In 2000 A.D...A.D...Al Gore was screwed the same way Nixon was..1 State, 1 Gov...Who just happens to be , the Winner's Brother and son of a former President... ...Trump has the right to challenge... Hillary has never accepted Trump won fair and square in 2016 A.D...It is not crying to challenge the election...Here in Detroit, there was some freaky sh*t going on at the count at Cobo Hall/Wayne County...Trump isn't spoiled....Trump is a typical loud mouth New Yorker...They're all Jackasses...
-------- But like Nixon, who lost, and came back to win 2 terms....Trump is coming back to win, and pull a Grover Cleveland....Who and the hell , would of ever thought that would ever happen again..... Thank the Democrats for that(not the old school Dems. ,the New Democrats, Radical LEFT)...Think about it...If they didn't cheat in 2020 A.D...Trump wins....He would be done in January...Mike Pence would be running against...Gov. Newsom,Cali.... Newsom would kick Pence's ass... Democrats only have themselves to blame... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Hillary Clintin in fact made a call to Trump to congratulate on winning. Here is her full concession speech....I know facts are hard to swallow among the GQP people.

--------She called Trump...Doesn't mean she means it...She has gone on shows saying she won in 2016 A.D...Try again Packy Rodent...It is o.k.for dems. to think they won ...but not republicans...Stacy Abrams still thinks she is the current gov. of Georgia...It's o.k. she is a democrat ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[jusplay4fun]

saxitoxin wrote:
Most of the condemned in Salem were truly guilty of witchcraft.

My reply:

Not true; simply more saxi fake news.

Now I have time to post evidence to refute saxi's fake news:

Restoring good names
In the years following the trials and executions, some involved, like judge Samuel Sewall and accuser Ann Putnam, publicly confessed error and guilt. On January 14, 1697, Massachusetts’ General Court ordered a day of fasting and soul-searching over the tragedy of Salem. In 1702, the court declared the trials unlawful. And in 1711, the colony passed a bill restoring the rights and good names of many of the accused, as well as granting a total of £600 in restitution to their heirs. But it wasn’t until 1957—more than 250 years later—that Massachusetts formally apologized for the events of 1692. Johnson, the accused woman exonerated in July 2022, was left out of the 1957 resolution for reasons unknown but received an official pardon after a successful lobbying campaign by a class of eighth-grade civics students.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a-brief-history-of-the-salem-witch-trials-175162489/

Refutation of saxi's fake news about Salem witches and the Witch Trials:

To what degree did one’s socioeconomic position play a part in the trials? Were any of the “elite” ever named as witches, or was this primarily the plight of the agrarian community? I find it sickly amusing that the trials were quickly squelched when the governor’s wife was named. Was this simply a precursor to Boston politics as usual?

In most witchcraft cases, the status and sex of the witch had much to do with who was accused. It began that way with 1692 Salem, but eventually became much more democratic as to who was accused. Many men were accused, as were a number of church members and upper-class types, including Philip English, one of the colony’s richest men. It is true that there was talk of several high-placed people being witches, such as Governor Phips’s wife, but this was only noted by bystanders after the height of the witchcraft hysteria was over. However, rich or influential persons who were accused could often find means of escape, such as bribing.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/salem-interactive/

Aftermath and closure
Although the last trial was held in May 1693, public response to the events continued. In the decades following the trials, survivors and family members (and their supporters) sought to establish the innocence of the individuals who were convicted and to gain compensation. In the following centuries, the descendants of those unjustly accused and condemned have sought to honor their memories. Events in Salem and Danvers in 1992 were used to commemorate the trials. In November 2001, years after the celebration of the 300th anniversary of the trials, the Massachusetts legislature passed an act exonerating all who had been convicted and naming each of the innocent,[106] with the exception of Elizabeth Johnson, who was cleared by the Massachusetts Senate on 26 May 2022, the last conviction to be reversed, after pressure from schoolchildren who discovered the anomaly.[107]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

And, of course, saxi chooses to ignore this post because he CANNOT REFUTE my evidence.

[saxitoxin]

There is indisputable proof of the existence of Bigfoot that no one can challenge.

[Dukasaur]

She has gone on shows saying she won in 2016 A.D.

You have an example to offer?

[mookiemcgee]

There is indisputable proof of the existence of Bigfoot that no one can challenge.

[insert picture of Dukusaur here]

[jusplay4fun]

There is indisputable proof of the existence of Bigfoot that no one can challenge.

And, of course, saxi chooses to ignore my previous post because he CANNOT REFUTE my evidence.

And he now avoids the discussion of Catholicism, the main point of this thread, as he cannot refute me further on that topic, too.

saxi will eventually want to turn this into another Dune Thread.

[Dukasaur]

Actually, a religious thread, by its very nature, is a Dune thread.

Frank Herbert largely wrote Dune as a study of the dangers of following a messiah.

All religions to a greater or lesser degree show us those dangers. Dune brings them into focus.

[ConfederateSS]

She has gone on shows saying she won in 2016 A.D.

You have an example to offer?

-------This is the thread of the Pope/Faith...But since you don't believe or have faith Duk...O.K....But you know I can't post videos/etc...So if you could...
----------Every show I have seen her in...She must have opened with that every day at the class she taught...
----------But here is one(I am sure she opened with this every time/on her speaking tour)....She went on a speaking tour across the USA...Here is a clip...
----------Just type in...Clips of Hillary Clinton saying she won(you could have already done this) the 2016 A.D. Election...1st one that pops up...youtube...Hillary talking in Inglewood ,California,speaking tour(Fox News/Business)...How the election was stolen from her...Please Post it here Duk...Thank You Kindly...The world would be a better place...If People would just have a little faith(everyone/I wasn't referring to you)...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[2dimes]

Are you referring to this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04

[ConfederateSS]

Are you referring to this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04

-----Yes, ...But she sings the same tune where ever she speaks...
---------- So , Trump has every right, to sing the same tune about 2020 A.D. ....... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
----------Thank You Kindly 2dimes...I like it, because if you watch the whole thing.... Selling tickets for $2.00... ....All the money they have taken from people.... Couldn't they just once...Do something for free... ...I like how you did it 2dimes...Unlike Packy Rodent, people don't have to see her face, unless you go to the clip......