Map Organization Project [Ver 3 - Pg 13]

Topics that are not maps. Discuss general map making concepts, techniques, contests, etc, here.

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What is your favorite category?

Theme (Classic, Abstract, ect)
14
27%
Territories
12
24%
Image Size
0
No votes
Complexity
16
31%
Age
3
6%
Other (POST)
2
4%
Categories are stupid and we should only have A-Z and Rating
4
8%
 
Total votes : 51

Postby Coleman on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:41 pm

Well, until you can teach us how to bring horses to water and make them drink we are forced with just bringing them to water.

Also unless someone gets a wild hair up their ass to include every feature we've defined in a map well enough for it to pass the foundry no new player is going to see every single feature all at once.
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:43 pm

DiM wrote:
yeti_c wrote:DiM - you're arguing for arguings sake here - you know full well that having an attack line is easier to understand than something written somewhere else on the map saying "All Docks attack each other"...

I was merely suggesting a different name - if you can come up with a better one - feel free - if not - then STFU.

If you'd've drawn all those lines over AOM it wouldn't've gotten through the Foundry.

C.


exactly my point because those lines would have made the map really confusing whereas a simple explanation sorts all problems. BUT according to you and coleman the map is actually more complex because it has that explanation instead of lines. this is what puzzles me. you actually manage to make things more confusing with your strange inventions.


NO NO NO NO...

You miss the point... there are 10 Ports in AOM and 10? docks in AOM...

So each Dock not only borders 20 other territories but also the 2-3-4 that it actually touches...

How can you not see that is more complicated than a territory that connnect to 2 3 4 territories with a line to another territory?

Anyways - I can't be arsed to argue anymore - I'm off to bed.

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Postby fireedud on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:52 pm

Coleman wrote:Also unless someone gets a wild hair up their ass to include every feature we've defined in a map well enough for it to pass the foundry no new player is going to see every single feature all at once.


I should try that... once I get a good program.
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Postby WidowMakers on Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:52 pm

yeti_c wrote:
DiM wrote:
yeti_c wrote:DiM - you're arguing for arguings sake here - you know full well that having an attack line is easier to understand than something written somewhere else on the map saying "All Docks attack each other"...

I was merely suggesting a different name - if you can come up with a better one - feel free - if not - then STFU.

If you'd've drawn all those lines over AOM it wouldn't've gotten through the Foundry.

C.


exactly my point because those lines would have made the map really confusing whereas a simple explanation sorts all problems. BUT according to you and coleman the map is actually more complex because it has that explanation instead of lines. this is what puzzles me. you actually manage to make things more confusing with your strange inventions.


NO NO NO NO...

You miss the point... there are 10 Ports in AOM and 10? docks in AOM...

So each Dock not only borders 20 other territories but also the 2-3-4 that it actually touches...

How can you not see that is more complicated than a territory that connnect to 2 3 4 territories with a line to another territory?

Anyways - I can't be arsed to argue anymore - I'm off to bed.

C.
yeti_c is correct. DiM listen. He is not saying that AOM is bad, he is saying it is more complicated. That is not a bad thing, it is just a fact. Stop arguing.

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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:40 am

and i'm saying it's not more complicated. or perhaps we have a different opinion on what complicated means.

let's further detail the matter.

having a water route is simple but saying in the legend this connects to that is considered a gimmick that makes the map complicated.

so on classic we have a line from brazil to africa. if we remove that line and add 2 docks and say in the legend brazil dock connects to africa dock then the classic maps becomes complicated?

on aom we have the explanation in the legend but if i remove that and add lines back and forth between the ports the map is no longer gimmicky but classic?

this is what you're basically saying. and i strongly disagree because in some cases a legend instruction can simplify then map not make it harder to understand. and the aom is the perfect example. remove the explanation and add lines and in theory it will no longer have the ranged attacks gimmick but in reality it will be much harder to understand because of the graphical layout.

and that's the problem of the complexity quantification you people are trying to do here. what's complex for a map is actually simple for another and a gimmick here can make life easier while on another map it can make it harder. complexity of maps is not something you can decide regarding judging by terit numbers number of gimmicks and stuff like that. a map with no gimmicks can be hard as hell and most people won't have the slightest idea what to do while a map with lots of gimmicks can be so user friendly and it can have a game flow that people will instantly comprehend and thus be considered a damn easy map.

you can't simply say this gimmick is hard and this is not and then separate all maps based on that. it wouldn't be true.


imagine a map with 3 terits. 3 islands. 1 starts as neutral. the other 2 are for the players. each starting island has an auto deploy bonus and the third neutral island is a resource that also gives a bonus but it also has decay on it. the starting terits can bombard eachother and can one way range attack the neutral island. there's also an objective of holding the island and your starting point to win.
add some confusing names like rrr1$@jjj and YYY^^^4hu and according to your calculation that would be one hell of a complex map.
you have bombardments, one way, ranged attacks, objective, starting neutrals, conquest gameplay, strategic resources, autodeploy, decay, confusing names and i reckon i can squeeze a few more gimmicks in there. would that map be complex or simple? i say it's pretty darn simple. according to your calculations it would be the most complex map ever since it has 10 gimmicks.
and please don't tell me such a map would not get quenched cause we aren't talking about that here.
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Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:52 am

DiM you are just being ridiculous. You are taking this to the extreme to try and prove a point that you maps are not complex. BUT THEY ARE!!!

Adding docks between Brazil and north Africa in Classic would make it more complex because now you need to read somewhere what it means. Plus can the other docks from Great Britain and Greenland now attack Brazil and North Africa? Now you need to explain that too.

AOM is more complex because when you look at the map and have never played it before, you need to read and study the map before you understand how it works.

Even with the basic understanding of the game, Classic can be looked at for 10 seconds and there are no questions about gameplay. Sure strategies will develop the longer you play the game but the initial learning curve for classic, Great Britain, Brazil,... is very low.

Your maps the learning curve is high.
Again I am not saying that makes them bad I am saying that makes them complicated.

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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:14 am

WidowMakers wrote:DiM you are just being ridiculous. You are taking this to the extreme to try and prove a point that you maps are not complex. BUT THEY ARE!!!



i'm not talking about my maps in particular i used them as an example because i saw coleman say they have ranged attacks and i didn't know what those were.

read again this bolded part

so on classic we have a line from brazil to africa. if we remove that line and add 2 docks and say in the legend brazil dock connects to africa dock then the classic maps becomes complicated?


then answer this question:
on aom we have the explanation in the legend but if i remove that and add lines back and forth between the ports the map is no longer gimmicky but classic?


and then read my opinion on that matter:

this is what you're basically saying. and i strongly disagree because in some cases a legend instruction can simplify then map not make it harder to understand. and the aom is the perfect example. remove the explanation and add lines and in theory it will no longer have the ranged attacks gimmick but in reality it will be much harder to understand because of the graphical layout.



and after all that please read again my conclusion:

and that's the problem of the complexity quantification you people are trying to do here. what's complex for a map is actually simple for another and a gimmick here can make life easier while on another map it can make it harder. complexity of maps is not something you can decide regarding judging by terit numbers number of gimmicks and stuff like that. a map with no gimmicks can be hard as hell and most people won't have the slightest idea what to do while a map with lots of gimmicks can be so user friendly and it can have a game flow that people will instantly comprehend and thus be considered a damn easy map.

you can't simply say this gimmick is hard and this is not and then separate all maps based on that. it wouldn't be true.



and study my example:


imagine a map with 3 terits. 3 islands. 1 starts as neutral. the other 2 are for the players. each starting island has an auto deploy bonus and the third neutral island is a resource that also gives a bonus but it also has decay on it. the starting terits can bombard eachother and can one way range attack the neutral island. there's also an objective of holding the island and your starting point to win.
add some confusing names like rrr1$@jjj and YYY^^^4hu and according to your calculation that would be one hell of a complex map.
you have bombardments, one way, ranged attacks, objective, starting neutrals, conquest gameplay, strategic resources, autodeploy, decay, confusing names and i reckon i can squeeze a few more gimmicks in there. would that map be complex or simple? i say it's pretty darn simple. according to your calculations it would be the most complex map ever since it has 10 gimmicks.
and please don't tell me such a map would not get quenched cause we aren't talking about that here.


i don't give a rusty dime if my maps are considered complex or simple, all i care is that the organization project must provide an easy to understand, easy to use way for people to comprehend the maps. and so far you guys are making things way too complicated. unnecessarily complicated.
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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:28 am

AoM is more complicated... its next to impossible to determine just what your bonus will be with all the +1 +2 and multipliers etc let a lone all the other players bonuses... i often just attack a port because I know it will increase my bonus, but I never know by how much...

AoM is a decent map, I am currently in round 26 in a 6 player game that could go either way... but the fact is, this map would be unplayable without BOB. Thats not a bad thing, just a complicated thing.
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Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 am

DiM wrote:i don't give a rusty dime if my maps are considered complex or simple, all i care is that the organization project must provide an easy to understand, easy to use way for people to comprehend the maps. and so far you guys are making things way too complicated. unnecessarily complicated.
Completly agree. I am working on a pic to show how I think the map screen should look.

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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:01 am

mibi wrote:AoM is more complicated... its next to impossible to determine just what your bonus will be with all the +1 +2 and multipliers etc let a lone all the other players bonuses... i often just attack a port because I know it will increase my bonus, but I never know by how much...

AoM is a decent map, I am currently in round 26 in a 6 player game that could go either way... but the fact is, this map would be unplayable without BOB. Thats not a bad thing, just a complicated thing.



are you serious? it's actually really really simple and i've seen lots of players on this map that don't use bob. in fact this and realms are the only maps i can safely play without bob when i don't have firefox available. but since i made them i guess i don't matter. anyway the point is that yes it's more complicated to tell the bonuses than classic but it's still very easy. just look if a guy has resource pairs then see what factories markets and ports he has and add +1 or +2. easy as pie.

just like siege. if a guy has a camp look to see if he also has the gate and add to that. the only difference is that on aom you have more adding to do.
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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:02 am

WidowMakers wrote:
DiM wrote:i don't give a rusty dime if my maps are considered complex or simple, all i care is that the organization project must provide an easy to understand, easy to use way for people to comprehend the maps. and so far you guys are making things way too complicated. unnecessarily complicated.
Completly agree. I am working on a pic to show how I think the map screen should look.

WM


well at least we agree that this is becoming too damn complicated.

looking forward to the screen.
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Postby rebelman on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:16 am

if anyone wanted proof how nuts the foundry people are (or at least some of them) a read of this thread should do the trick :lol:
Don't now why people on here don't like being cooks, remember under siege: A former SEAL, now cook, is the only person who can stop a gang of terrorists when they sieze control of a US Navy battleship.
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Postby bryguy on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:16 am

rebelman wrote:if anyone wanted proof how nuts the foundry people are (or at least some of them) a read of this thread should do the trick :lol:


i agree :roll:
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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:19 am

rebelman wrote:if anyone wanted proof how nuts the foundry people are (or at least some of them) a read of this thread should do the trick :lol:


true i think yeti and coleman should receive one of these for christmas:
and they even come in diff colors :P (<--- yeti is gonna be pissed when he sees it's color not colour)


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Postby Coleman on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:35 am

We don't need to borrow any clothes from you DiM.
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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:38 am

Coleman wrote:We don't need to borrow any clothes from you DiM.


i don't need them. lately i've been wearing nothing but this:

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it's kinda hard eating with a straw but it makes my eyes look nice :lol:
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Postby Herakilla on Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:24 pm

dim stop being an arse lol and just admit that your maps are complex! afterall i dont think you made them specifically for the newer players now did you *wags finger*
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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:38 pm

Herakilla wrote:dim stop being an arse lol and just admit that your maps are complex! afterall i dont think you made them specifically for the newer players now did you *wags finger*


shut up. and go play with a rubber duck. *hands hera a rubber duck*

i'm not saying they aren't complex. i'm saying they aren't as gimmicky as coleman says they are. merchants has 2 gimmicks. one way borders (ports to docks) and starting neutrals (pirate cove) that's all. the rest (strategic resources and ranged attacks) are inventions meant to create even more confusion.
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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:just like siege. if a guy has a camp look to see if he also has the gate and add to that. the only difference is that on aom you have more adding to do.


more adding... uh yeah... I dont want to manually add anything close to the bonuses in my current game.

Aoria Castle (5) Xi Castle (5) Aoria Castle and Rhit Village (1) Aoria Castle and Fick Village (1) Aoria Castle and Haet Village (1) Aoria Castle and Duht Village (1) Aoria Castle and Mat Village (1) Aoria Castle and Qasr Village (1) Aoria Castle and Sler Village (1) Xi Castle and Rhit Village (1) Xi Castle and Fick Village (1) Xi Castle and Haet Village (1) Xi Castle and Duht Village (1) Xi Castle and Mat Village (1) Xi Castle and Qasr Village (1) Xi Castle and Sler Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Rhit Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Fick Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Haet Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Duht Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Mat Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Qasr Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Sler Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Rhit Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Fick Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Haet Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Duht Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Mat Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Qasr Village (1) Wheat Field, Bakery and Sler Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Rhit Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Fick Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Haet Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Duht Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Mat Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Qasr Village (1) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Sler Village (1) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Aoria Castle (2) Corn Mill, Corn Farm and Xi Castle (2) Wheat Field, Bakery and Aoria Castle (2) Wheat Field, Bakery and Xi Castle (2) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Aoria Castle (2) Gold Mine, Coin Mint and Xi Castle (2)

and thats just one player.

maybe its intuitive to you... but i simply can't play it without computational help (Bob)
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Postby DiM on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:02 pm

mibi wrote:maybe its intuitive to you... but i simply can't play it without computational help (Bob)


could be.
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Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:11 pm

OK here we go. Sorry for the big images but i wanted to get the full effect. I have designed and reorganized several of the current and new screens that will go along with the new map organization project.

All of these screens are made up and the ratings I put under each map were random. So please do spam the thread and complain that your favorite map only got 1 star out of 5. It is just an example. (I know someone will post a stupid comment now just because I asked not to)

SO here we go.

Map Select Screen
Here are the new features:
-5 star rating - This shows the current player rating of the map on a level of 0-5 stars. If you have played a particular map you can click on the stars and you will be taken to the Map Rating & feedback screen (see below)
-Map Info link-This link takes you to a new page on the site where the information to the particular map resides. (see below)
-Sort by A/Z and Rating- I added this just to show where we could put the sort button and what it might look like.
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When you click on a map the image shows up just like now. However, there is an added link the the map information page (see below)
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Map Rating and Feedback Screen
Here a player can pick the rating they would like to give a map and leave a short post about why they liked/disliked/enjoyed/ the map. This information will then be viewable on the map information page.
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Map Information Page
This page contains most of the vital information about a particular map. If a map is confusing, a player can come here and rad up on what different gameplay attributes or gameplay styles are best suited for it.

The gameplay gimmicks are listed and are able to be linked ot the main glossary listed int eh help section or instructions at th top of the site. (See below)
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Map Gameplay Features
This is the main list of different gameplay features (gimmicks). In each map info page the gimmicks will be linked to this page. That way if a player does not understand how a particular map is played, they can read the map info and then get a clearer understanding of each aspect of the map but reading the actual definition of the gimmick.
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Well That is it. I know it is a big post but I wanted to get the actual experience out there.

Any suggestions? I probably will not update the pics but it might get the discussion moving towards a more defined solution.

WM
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Colonel WidowMakers
 
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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:23 pm

I have to disagree with some of those ratings.
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Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:23 pm

mibi wrote:I have to disagree with some of those ratings.
:D

Well I guess that wraps this up. Mibi's comments are all we needed.

WM
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Colonel WidowMakers
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:25 am
Location: Detroit, MI
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Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (11) Map Contribution (21) General Contribution (14)

Postby Kaplowitz on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:26 pm

If you have never played a map, would it go to the back? b/c this might encourage people to never try new maps cause its always at the bottom; i realize you can choose A-Z...but idk.
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Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:32 pm

Kaplowitz wrote:If you have never played a map, would it go to the back? b/c this might encourage people to never try new maps cause its always at the bottom; i realize you can choose A-Z...but idk.
I don't know what you mean. Go to the back of what?

The ratings are based off of everyone ranking the map. So thousands of people will be voting (0-5) and leaving map feedback. You can only leave a rating 1 time per map. SO if you sort by rating, the maps with the highest rating (MAX 5) will be at the top and so on down to the lowest.

And you will be able to change your rating in the future if you wish (just like the current feedback system).

WM
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Colonel WidowMakers
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:25 am
Location: Detroit, MI
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (11) Map Contribution (21) General Contribution (14)

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