SteamWorks

by **Victor Sullivan** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:55 pm

I thought this was about Steamworks, not zimmah's ex! :lol:

(Thanks for the Cheeto fix btw :mrgreen:

)

-Sully

by **DiM** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:59 pm

muahahaha. bloody good work. it's genius.

by **zimmah** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:46 pm

DiM wrote:muahahaha. bloody good work. it's genius.

why exactly tho my ex?

by **grifftron** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:17 pm

DiM wrote:
grifftron wrote:What a beautiful map. The only thing that stuck out to me was the region bonuses in the key area, for some reason i don't like how the colors or should i say the regions are represented color wise in the key... could this change? other then that at the moment it is beautiful.

-griff

thank you for the kind words.
could you please be more specific about the minimap? are the colours too bright? too dark? too strong? are the lines too thick/thin?

Thick my be the word, i want to say "sloppy" without being too mean, maybe thinning them out would work?

-griff

by **DiM** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:31 pm

grifftron wrote:
DiM wrote:
grifftron wrote:What a beautiful map. The only thing that stuck out to me was the region bonuses in the key area, for some reason i don't like how the colors or should i say the regions are represented color wise in the key... could this change? other then that at the moment it is beautiful.

-griff

thank you for the kind words.
could you please be more specific about the minimap? are the colours too bright? too dark? too strong? are the lines too thick/thin?

Thick my be the word, i want to say "sloppy" without being too mean, maybe thinning them out would work?

-griff

ah, i think i understand the issue. it was raised up before. the minimap is a direct scale down of the big map. so the borders which look wiggly and natural in the big image become sloppy/pixelated in the small one because the size is so darn small. i guess the only solution would be to actually hand-draw the minimap thus losing the fine details that make it look sloppy and give those lines a more rounded fluid look.
i'll give it a go and post the results.

by **DiM** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:32 pm

zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:muahahaha. bloody good work. it's genius.

why exactly tho my ex?

i simply admired his sketching talent. i could never do that.

by **DiM** on Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:56 pm

V17:
*fixed "cheetos"
*all the borders on the minimap were redrawn and i hope they look less pixelated/sloppy/wobbly
*reduced opacity of the legend border cogs
*moved isle of wight in the legend.

Click image to enlarge.

by **Telvannia** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:43 am

Sorry i have not really got time to read through the whole topic so i just hope these things have not come up yet:
Firstly, love the map dim.
Secondly, for the minimap is it worth just showing the continent borders? I think it would make it look a lot more clear, also i think the colour, outline and position should be enough to tell which continent is which.
Are you planning to put army circles on this map? I reckon they would spoil it and it should be clear enough without them.
Would it look better with a lower opacity legend border, it may be a optical illusion but it looks more opaque than the border round the map and it might look better at the same level of opacity.

That is about it, i will try and come back with some more suggestions at some point.

Tel.

P.S. I reckon you should make cambridge +10 :lol:

by **zimmah** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:58 am

DiM wrote:
zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:muahahaha. bloody good work. it's genius.

why exactly tho my ex?

i simply admired his sketching talent. i could never do that.

nono i mean why did you use my ex as your avatar in the frst place?

by **zimmah** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 am

DiM wrote:V17:
*fixed "cheetos"
*all the borders on the minimap were redrawn and i hope they look less pixelated/sloppy/wobbly

mnimap looks better now but i'd move the island of wight a little bit more to the south, it appairs to be connected to the land in the minimap.

by **DiM** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:37 am

Telvannia wrote:Sorry i have not really got time to read through the whole topic so i just hope these things have not come up yet:
Firstly, love the map dim.

thanks, i appreciate it.

Telvannia wrote:Secondly, for the minimap is it worth just showing the continent borders? I think it would make it look a lot more clear, also i think the colour, outline and position should be enough to tell which continent is which.

if others think so then i'll remove the inner borders. it's no problem.

Telvannia wrote:Are you planning to put army circles on this map? I reckon they would spoil it and it should be clear enough without them.

no army circles. if you look a few pages back you'll see i have army numbers on the map and they're perfectly visible.

Telvannia wrote:Would it look better with a lower opacity legend border, it may be a optical illusion but it looks more opaque than the border round the map and it might look better at the same level of opacity.

you're right, i'll lower it just a tad. i replaced v17 in the post above with a new image to accommodate this change

by **DiM** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:39 am

zimmah wrote:nono i mean why did you use my ex as your avatar in the frst place?

i didn't. somebody was playing against you, or was planning to do it. and asked me to make that avatar in case you lost so he/she could give it to you to wear.

by **DiM** on Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:39 am

zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:V17:
*fixed "cheetos"
*all the borders on the minimap were redrawn and i hope they look less pixelated/sloppy/wobbly

mnimap looks better now but i'd move the island of wight a little bit more to the south, it appairs to be connected to the land in the minimap.

done. see image above. i changed it to reflect this change and telvannia's legend border opacity.

by **DiM** on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:01 pm

any thoughts regarding the current gameplay? is it done? can this go forward?

by **TaCktiX** on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:36 pm

The CA's are presently discussing this map's gameplay. I'll be honest in saying I'm still not satisfied, but I need to get you a solution you can apply instead of vague discomfort.

by **DiM** on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:53 pm

TaCktiX wrote:The CA's are presently discussing this map's gameplay. I'll be honest in saying I'm still not satisfied, but I need to get you a solution you can apply instead of vague discomfort.

i hope it's about balancing the current gameplay and not changing it altogether because you're not a fan of the type of gameplay i'm aiming for.
if it's stil about this:

TaCktiX wrote:You'll certainly accomplish the "quick and dirty" you're aiming for, but it's not a gameplay I find interesting, nor of the flavor you normally create with a few simple concepts.

then i'm sorry but i'm not willing to give up on my quick and easy to understand gameplay just because my other maps have been more complicated.
just thought i'd put this forward before you waste your time to come with a totally different gameplay that i won't be using.

cheers.

by **Tisha** on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:45 pm

It'd be unfair to require that..

by **TaCktiX** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:30 am

Not asking for a revamp, and after talking with isaiah and Oliver, here's what we're seeing as the main problem:

- The map is near symmetrical.

Consider that only islands vary in size, while every island has a balloon and a port, and all islands but two have engine and steam right next to each other. Symmetry has been proven time and time again to be a dice-fest of doom (see: Chinese Checkers). So here's what we're suggesting:

- Remove some balloons and some ports from the map. Instead of one each per island, have a mix of an island with only a port, only a balloon, and maybe a couple with both. That will force more asymmetry and alleviate some of the bonus cramping that your smaller map is causing.
- Split out more engines and steams from each other. Yes, small islands, but with one fewer icon on most islands, splitting them should be more feasible. As stated above, only two islands have a split. That way it could be a possibility of someone taking an engine on one island, jumping a boat, and taking steam on another without necessarily having to worry about someone's already-existent pair.

The former I consider a requirement to get this Gameplay stamped. The latter would be nice for mixing the symmetry back out of things more.

by **DiM** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:31 pm

not all continents have 1 port and 1 balloon. some of them have either 2 ports + 1 balloon or 1 port+2 balloons. this+ the variation in size + the layout of the terits makes each island pretty different. for example, if i get 1 terit in northwest and 1 terit in east i'm 100% certain i'm going to focus on the northwest continent as it will be much easier to take and hold.
so clearly i don't consider the map to be as symmetrical as you make it appear i am willing to do the following changes, confident that it will diversify the gameplay even more:
1. remove port from chesshire. and reduce northwest bonus to just +1
2. move engine from surry to berkshire and move the balloon from berkshire to surry
3. move engine from sommerset to wiltshire
4. move engine from leicester to nottingham

V18

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:09 pm

You don't have any island with only ports... How about removing the balloon from either Surry or Glocester?

by **zimmah** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:01 pm

How about moving the engine from westmorland to cheshire?

by **DiM** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:44 pm

zimmah wrote:How about moving the engine from westmorland to cheshire?

yeah sure. it won't matter that much as the island will still have just 1 entry point.

natty_dread wrote:You don't have any island with only ports... How about removing the balloon from either Surry or Glocester?

that would make a bit of a puzzle in deciding the right bonuses. if i lower the continent by 1 then it's too much. if i leave it unchanged it's not right either.

however i will do something else. remove port from east riding and transform the balloons from northumberland and west riding into ports. that would make northeast continent a place with 5 terits and 2 entry points (both ports) and i can lower it to +2 from +3. this way i will get the all-ports island and at the same time keep the bonuses balanced.

V18.1

Click image to enlarge.

by **zimmah** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:29 pm

DiM wrote:
zimmah wrote:How about moving the engine from westmorland to cheshire?

yeah sure. it won't matter that much as the island will still have just 1 entry point.

yes, but in theory someone could take the engine and the balloon, and force someone to have that extra steam, without getting access to the engine.

by **DiM** on Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:04 pm

zimmah wrote:
DiM wrote:
zimmah wrote:How about moving the engine from westmorland to cheshire?

yeah sure. it won't matter that much as the island will still have just 1 entry point.

yes, but in theory someone could take the engine and the balloon, and force someone to have that extra steam, without getting access to the engine.

good point

by **iancanton** on Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:11 am

TaCktiX wrote:I see every game on this map boiling down to the same set of "engine/steam, engine/steam" with the occasional grab for Oxford to eliminate or setback someone else, with counterbalancing only in the form of forcing excess steam or removing bonus pairs entirely.

gimil wrote:it feels more like a 'DiM lite'. It has all signs of a good map by DiM but designed with the intention for smaller games.

i think both TacktiX and gimil have hit the nail on the head here. while the gameplay is somewhat limited in variety, there's just about enough there to serve as an introduction to the earlier DiM maps.

i find the negative steam bonus unclear. what happens if u have 2 engines and 3 steam? do u receive only a -3 bonus or both +2 and -3?

ian.