[Official] Freestyle Changes -- Give us your feedback!

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Do you approve of these changes?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:59 pm

Yes
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No
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Total votes : 95

[Official] Freestyle Changes -- Give us your feedback!

Postby lackattack on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:31 am

As discussed many times in this forum, the most pressing issues with freestyle games stem from the "anti-double-turn block":

The player who triggers a new round is not allowed to take a second back-to-back turn and must wait for someone else to begin their turn.

I am thinking of changing it as follows:

The player who triggers a new round is not allowed to take a second back-to-back turn and must wait for either someone else to end their turn or half of the round to pass.

Let's say Player A went first the previous round and is blocked, waiting for Player B to go.

The first change, extending the block to the end of the Player B's turn (instead of the beginning), is designed to prevent situations where Player A conquered a continent he can't hold and lurks around waiting for Player B to begin his turn, at which point Player A will immediately refresh, click Begin Turn, and gets the bonus before Player B has time to attack.

The second change, timing out the block after 12 hours (or 2.5 minutes in a speed game) is designed to prevent situations where Player B delays his turn to the last minute in order to block Player A from playing at all. Another solution, the "rolling 24 window", would have been to extend the time for Player A to 24 hours after Player B ends his turn. The reason I'm chosing against this is that (a) it is harder to program and (b) it can lead to longer rounds, up to 48 hrs.

I think these two changes will balance out freestyle so it is more fair, but is still flexible and still allows players to use timing to their advantage. Please post your feedback here, before the changes are set in stone (well nothing is really set in stone, but I do plan to put this in the upcoming update).

And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.
Last edited by lackattack on Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:39 am

What happens in the instance...

Player B starts his turn after 11 hours and 40 minutes... and finishes his turn after 12 hours and 20 minutes...

Can Player A start his turn after 12 hours?

C.
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Postby Sven Hassel on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:45 am

i think a better option would be something on the line of sequential-freestyle, i mean if i take my turn, i'm allowed to finish of my turn, before anybody can take theirs.

you can leave the current freestyle system, because many players already made a strategy of playing this type of freestyle, and implement a new style.
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Postby The1exile on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:52 am

yeti_c wrote:What happens in the instance...

Player B starts his turn after 11 hours and 40 minutes... and finishes his turn after 12 hours and 20 minutes...

Can Player A start his turn after 12 hours?

C.


Unless I'm mistaken, player A could take their turn from 11 hours and 40 minutes, since player B started theirs?
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:53 am

The1exile wrote:
yeti_c wrote:What happens in the instance...

Player B starts his turn after 11 hours and 40 minutes... and finishes his turn after 12 hours and 20 minutes...

Can Player A start his turn after 12 hours?

C.


Unless I'm mistaken, player A could take their turn from 11 hours and 40 minutes, since player B started theirs?


lackattack wrote:The first change, extending the block to the end of the Player B's turn (instead of the beginning)


C.
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Postby lackattack on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:54 am

yeti_c wrote:Player B starts his turn after 11 hours and 40 minutes... and finishes his turn after 12 hours and 20 minutes...

Can Player A start his turn after 12 hours?

Yes

Sven Hassel wrote:i think a better option would be something on the line of sequential-freestyle, i mean if i take my turn, i'm allowed to finish of my turn, before anybody can take theirs.

Freestyle w/locks will come in another update, not this one :)
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:55 am

Sven Hassel wrote:i think a better option would be something on the line of sequential-freestyle, i mean if i take my turn, i'm allowed to finish of my turn, before anybody can take theirs.

you can leave the current freestyle system, because many players already made a strategy of playing this type of freestyle, and implement a new style.


This would still need these fixes though - as otherwise people would be able to take double turns - and of course they would be definitiely be able to block out other users to the end of the turn...

If you ask me though the Seq-Free game would need the rolling clock idea - as if someone started a turn with 1 hour left - they could block out the rest of the pool.

C.
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Postby wicked on Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:13 am

First of all, thanks Lack for asking before implementing so that we can discuss all possible scenarios.

So basically this gives everyone a minimum 12 hour window within to take their turns? From what I've seen of the freestyle fanatics, they usually know exactly when their opponent is online, so could manipulate the new 12 hour clock to occur when their opponent is offline/asleep. Granted, it seems more fair than the current system, but is still open for manipulation IMO. Lemme get some caffeine flowing and I'll think about it some more.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:17 am

I like it the way it is.
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Postby The1exile on Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:19 am

wicked wrote:First of all, thanks Lack for asking before implementing so that we can discuss all possible scenarios.

So basically this gives everyone a minimum 12 hour window within to take their turns? From what I've seen of the freestyle fanatics, they usually know exactly when their opponent is online, so could manipulate the new 12 hour clock to occur when their opponent is offline/asleep. Granted, it seems more fair than the current system, but is still open for manipulation IMO. Lemme get some caffeine flowing and I'll think about it some more.


Wouldn't the onus be on the player who has to get on in the 12 hour period to make sure they're not? After all, freestyle forced turn missing is only really effective in places with 2 players left, so if you know that you won't be on 12-24 hours later, don't take your turn then.

I know i'm not making much sense but i definitely mean something :?
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Proposed FreeStyle Changes

Postby Aerial Attack on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:57 am

I like these changes !

That would make freestyle more "playable" for people who are more used to sequential/fair turns.

This would still allow someone to play every day at their 4:00 PM (16:00) coffee break.

Round 1 (Max End Day 2 15:59)
Day 1 16:00 Coffee Player STARTS Turn 1
Day 1 16:10 Coffee Player ENDS Turn 1
Day 1 18:00 Free Player STARTS Turn 1
Day 1 18:10 Free Player ENDS Turn 1

Round 2 (Max End Day 2 18:09)
Day 2 6:10 Free Player STARTS Turn 2
Day 2 6:20 Free Player ENDS Turn 2
Day 2 16:00 Coffee Player STARTS Turn 2
Day 2 16:10 Coffee Player ENDS Turn 2

Round 3 (Max End Day 3 16:09)
Day 2 18:00 Free Player STARTS Turn 3
Day 2 18:10 Free Player ENDS Turn 3
Day 3 16:00 Coffee Player STARTS Turn 3
Day 3 16:09 Coffee Player ENDS Turn 3

Notice that Free Player was not able to take Turn 4 before Coffee Player took Turn 3. So, the window is still effectively 24 hours (and fair). The double turns now only occur when Coffee player starts a round (allowing Free Player to go twice before Coffee player logs back in). In order for Free Player to get another double turn, Coffee Player would have to take a double turn or miss a turn.

NOTE: Coffee Player does run the possibility of eventually not having much time to TAKE a turn. This is due to the fact that each successive day - the round potentially ends a few seconds or minutes earlier than the previous [max limit would be 24 hours exactly].
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Postby oVo on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:58 am

I too like freestyle the way it is, with all the quirks of it's play. It would seem that just eliminating 1v1 freestyle games is a simpler solution to the "late play tactic" that some employ. What's the point of freestyle with just two players anyway?

Freestyle games with a bunch of players --particularly speed games-- can be totally nuts anyways and I only do them occassionally. For me the particular tactics that are available only with freestyle are what makes it special and players who don't appreciate them should stay with sequencial.
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Postby spiesr on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:51 am

B is okay, but A goes against the very idea of freestyle...
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Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby thedude13 on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:15 pm

I play a lot of 1-on-1 Freestyle games and I would hate if the rules were changed. If I am player A and I'm waiting for player B to start his turn so I can start my turn to get my bonuses before I loose them, chances are, if player B is fast enough, he has plenty of time to start his turn AND attack before I can start my turn. Especially since there is a refresh limit that only permits you to refresh every three seconds. Include that plus browser lode time and time to move cursor from "Refresh Map" to "Begin Turn" and player B has at least a six second head start on player A, which trust me, is plenty of time to screw another player.

Besides, a 1-on-1 Freestyle game is the only true speed game for a non-premium player. Taking that away from us, which is what you guys will be doing if you change the rules, would be total crap; unless you guys decide to extend the "Speed Game" option to the non-premium players.

With that said, I LOVE Conquer Club and I am voting everyday on MPOGD.com and can't wait till it wins. I am also referring as many people as I can. So again, I am asking you to not change a thing, except for the hole "Speed Game" thing. Thank you for the great website and thank you for your time an consideration.

Sincerely,
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Re: Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby lackattack on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:16 pm

oVo wrote:It would seem that just eliminating 1v1 freestyle games is a simpler solution to the "late play tactic" that some employ.

Eliminate 1v1 freestyle!? Every freestyle game eventually boils down to 1v1 :roll:

thedude13 wrote:...chances are, if player B is fast enough, he has plenty of time to start his turn AND attack before I can start my turn. Especially since there is a refresh limit that only permits you to refresh every three seconds. Include that plus browser lode time and time to move cursor from "Refresh Page" to "Begin Turn" and player B has at least a six second head start on player A, which trust me, is plenty of time to screw another player.

I agree that Player B could bust up Player A if he's quick. But I'd bet that much of the time Player B doesn't know that Player A is lurking.


I added a pole... please vote your mind :D
Last edited by lackattack on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby unriggable on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:18 pm

I support this measure, as it has happened to me many-a-time on doodle earth.
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Postby firth4eva on Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:13 pm

reverend_kyle wrote:I like it the way it is.


for the first and probably only time

QFT

if this does get implemented please make it an additional option and not a whole change to freestyle.
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Postby thedude13 on Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:03 pm

OK, I see your point, and I have no problem with those rules applied to a non 1-on-1 Freestyle game (which I'm sure the rules would have to be implemented to all Freestyle games, not just on ones over two players) however, like I said before, those rules would kill any chance of a true speed game for us non-premium players.

Since, most-likely, those rules will be implemented; what, if any, are our chances of getting "Speed Games" extended to all players. Now, eventually I plan on becoming a "Premi" when the time is right, but others will not be so fortunate. What will the ever do if they want a fast action game?

Sincerely,
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Postby Clive on Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:48 pm

lackattack wrote:Eliminate 1v1 freestyle!? Every freestyle game eventually boils down to 1v1 :roll:


Not if it's assassin...

lackattack wrote:Another solution, the "rolling 24 window", would have been to extend the time for Player A to 24 hours after Player B ends his turn. The reason I'm chosing against this is that (a) it is harder to program and (b) it can lead to longer rounds, up to 48 hrs.


I like this idea best.
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Re: [Official] Freestyle Changes -- Give us your feedback!

Postby AK_iceman on Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:54 pm

lackattack wrote:As discussed many times in this forum, the most pressing issues with freestyle games stem from the "anti-double-turn block":

The player who triggers a new round is not allowed to take a second back-to-back turn and must wait for someone else to begin their turn.

I am thinking of changing it as follows:

The player who triggers a new round is not allowed to take a second back-to-back turn and must wait for either someone else to end their turn or half of the round to pass.

Let's say Player A went first the previous round and is blocked, waiting for Player B to go.

The first change, extending the block to the end of the Player B's turn (instead of the beginning), is designed to prevent situations where Player A conquered a continent he can't hold and lurks around waiting for Player B to begin his turn, at which point Player A will immediately refresh, click Begin Turn, and gets the bonus before Player B has time to attack.

I'm not sure I like this one... I like the fact that hardcore players can pull tricks like this. However, when Player B is unaware that Player A is online and waiting, that is a little unfair. Implement the "Show Players Online" suggestion and keep the turns the way they are.

lackattack wrote:The second change, timing out the block after 12 hours (or 2.5 minutes in a speed game) is designed to prevent situations where Player B delays his turn to the last minute in order to block Player A from playing at all. Another solution, the "rolling 24 window", would have been to extend the time for Player A to 24 hours after Player B ends his turn. The reason I'm chosing against this is that (a) it is harder to program and (b) it can lead to longer rounds, up to 48 hrs.

I think these two changes will balance out freestyle so it is more fair, but is still flexible and still allows players to use timing to their advantage. Please post your feedback here, before the changes are set in stone (well nothing is really set in stone, but I do plan to put this in the upcoming update).

And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.

Excellent. Like wicked mentioned, there is still room for abuse, but that window is considerably smaller. But I like the fact that this idea keeps the freestyle rounds to a maximum of 24 hours. I support this idea.
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Re: Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby wicked on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:18 pm

lackattack wrote:I agree that Player B could bust up Player A if he's quick. But I'd bet that much of the time Player B doesn't know that Player A is lurking.


I added a pole... please vote your mind :D



I don't agree. When we were testing speed games, we played some freestyle, and try as I might, I couldn't break up someone if they where there waiting for me to start the next round. And I have a pretty fast connection. If I were playing freestyle and saw the other person online, I'd be in that game hitting refresh every second. ;-)

Oh and about the pole, how about a new one with these options:

-support changes as is
-support a change but not this one (or noth both of them)
-keep it the way it is
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Re: Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby The Fuzzy Pengui on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:20 pm

wicked wrote:If I were playing freestyle and saw the other person online, I'd be in that game hitting refresh every second. ;-)


And then waste another second clicking "Ok" on the box that say's "Please don't click refresh so quickly" :lol: ;-)
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Re: Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby wicked on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:21 pm

The Fuzzy Pengui wrote:
wicked wrote:If I were playing freestyle and saw the other person online, I'd be in that game hitting refresh every second. ;-)


And then waste another second clicking "Ok" on the box that say's "Please don't click refresh so quickly" :lol: ;-)


Nope, I'm not running AJAX, so can click refresh as much as I want w/o annoying popups. :wink:
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Postby thedude13 on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:21 pm

I agree with AK_iceman 100%. In fact, I recently started a thread about the "showing players online" idea, though did not think about it being a solution to this problem as well. Also, to rephrase my previous statements, the second rule change is a great idea. It's the first one that I think is horrid.

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Re: Please Don't Change A Thing!

Postby The Fuzzy Pengui on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:29 pm

wicked wrote:
The Fuzzy Pengui wrote:
wicked wrote:If I were playing freestyle and saw the other person online, I'd be in that game hitting refresh every second. ;-)


And then waste another second clicking "Ok" on the box that say's "Please don't click refresh so quickly" :lol: ;-)


Nope, I'm not running AJAX, so can click refresh as much as I want w/o annoying popups. :wink:


I am just because I still have dial-up at home....I live out in the middle of nowhere...good thing work has a T1 :D
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