Freestyle Turns and Possibility of Double Turns

[Soloman]

There has been a lot of talk for a long time about how people can "cheat" in freestyle by 1st waiting to the last bit of time to take turn and thus get a double turn so to speak by starting 2nd turn imediately after time out. You could also prevent another player from having there turn by using this time delay tactic now Part of this was resolved by allowing other players to start after 12 hours but the time out ability is still there to a degree.

Knowing the way freestyle works there is a very vocal group that wishes to see it changed while at the same time I see a lot of people defending it as is. Since I feel it it needs more general disscussion My question is do you think we should further change this dynamic of freestyle or leave it as it is? Does it bother you the way this happens in games or is it nothing to you? Do you not play Freestyle because of these things or do you play freestyle because of this ability? Come on CC what is your Oppinion???

[Thezzaruz]

There has been a lot of talk for a long time about how people can "cheat" in freestyle

It's not a cheat and very few are calling it that. But IMO it is a possibility that wasn't meant to be there.
Good initiative to take the discussion to the masses though.

[cramill]

I've been voicing my opinion plenty in the suggestions forum, but I'll put this here as well:

In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

This needs to be fixed. Freestyle wasn't made to allow double turns, thus using this "tactic" to get a double turn is unfair and an exploit of the system.

[meathead]

I've been voicing my opinion plenty in the suggestions forum, but I'll put this here as well:

In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

This needs to be fixed. Freestyle wasn't made to allow double turns, thus using this "tactic" to get a double turn is unfair and an exploit of the system.

You are backing up your oppositions argument:


The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

If you take a double turn, you DONT trigger a new round, the clock does. Hence taking a double turn is completely acceptable according to the rules, as the player doing so has NOT triggered a new round.

[*manimal]

I've been voicing my opinion plenty in the suggestions forum, but I'll put this here as well:

In a freestyle game it doesn't matter in which order players take their turns. Players can even play simultaneously! After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

This needs to be fixed. Freestyle wasn't made to allow double turns, thus using this "tactic" to get a double turn is unfair and an exploit of the system.

You are backing up your oppositions argument:


The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

If you take a double turn, you DONT trigger a new round, the clock does. Hence taking a double turn is completely acceptable according to the rules, as the player doing so has NOT triggered a new round.

Excatly The player never triggered the round the clock did.

[Thezzaruz]

If you take a double turn, you DONT trigger a new round, the clock does. Hence taking a double turn is completely acceptable according to the rules, as the player doing so has NOT triggered a new round.

Oh come on, get with the arguments... No one is saying that it is against the rules currently. Just that it goes against the spirit of the rule and hence the rule and how it's implemented should be changed to reflect how it was meant to work.

[cramill]

You are backing up your oppositions argument:


The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.

If you take a double turn, you DONT trigger a new round, the clock does. Hence taking a double turn is completely acceptable according to the rules, as the player doing so has NOT triggered a new round.

No I'm not. And thats a lame excuse! You took your turn last you shouldn't be able to go first next round.

And, I think that people vote quicker than they read the poll question and are voting for the wrong option because the poll question and the thread title are different. Someone reads "possibility of double turns" in the thread title and then sees the poll answers and sees "No - I like the way it is" and chooses that.

[owenshooter]

if you don't like it, don't play freestyle. that is how i deal with all the quirks of freestyle.-0

[cramill]

if you don't like it, don't play freestyle. that is how i deal with all the quirks of freestyle.-0

I think thats a dumb comment: "If you don't like it don't play it." I have my reasons for playing (especially doubles freestyle). All I'm saying that double turns need to be done away with completely.

[owenshooter]

if you don't like it, don't play freestyle. that is how i deal with all the quirks of freestyle.-0

I think thats a dumb comment: "If you don't like it don't play it." I have my reasons for playing (especially doubles freestyle). All I'm saying that double turns need to be done away with completely.

actually, it isn't a dumb comment. i don't like freestyle and all the quirks, so i don't play it. i don't like standard because of the constant bad play of players giving games to others, so i don't play it. i play team sequential games, because that is what i like. so, either you get better at exploiting the freestyle tactics that others use or you will never be happy playing freestyle. oh, and be sure to add Clickable Maps or you will just get steamrolled by someone that has it.

we can all choose to play the settings we like, that is what makes this site so great. it isn't dumb of me to tell you to play something else if you don't like the quirks of freestyle, you should listen. afterall, in close to 2 years, you have played only 244 games and won 82 for an amazing 34% win rate... you really should consider playing something that you understand a little better. what you guys are complaining about in this thread is not going to change. it is legal, it is the clock, it is freestyle.-0

p.s.-"dumb" is not a word one should use when trying to make an intelligent counter to a post. it lowers the level of your discourse and makes you seem combative. grow up. people disagree with you, it happens.

[gloryordeath]

A well said post owen. If you don't want to take advantage of all the legal moves in a type of play then have the grace not to bitch about others who do. You can always play some other way.

[cramill]

actually, it isn't a dumb comment. i don't like freestyle and all the quirks, so i don't play it. i don't like standard because of the constant bad play of players giving games to others, so i don't play it. i play team sequential games, because that is what i like. so, either you get better at exploiting the freestyle tactics that others use or you will never be happy playing freestyle. oh, and be sure to add Clickable Maps or you will just get steamrolled by someone that has it.

we can all choose to play the settings we like, that is what makes this site so great. it isn't dumb of me to tell you to play something else if you don't like the quirks of freestyle, you should listen. afterall, in close to 2 years, you have played only 244 games and won 82 for an amazing 34% win rate... you really should consider playing something that you understand a little better. what you guys are complaining about in this thread is not going to change. it is legal, it is the clock, it is freestyle.-0

p.s.-"dumb" is not a word one should use when trying to make an intelligent counter to a post. it lowers the level of your discourse and makes you seem combative. grow up. people disagree with you, it happens.

Dumb might not have been the best choice of words, but I had little time when I posted that so I couldn't think of any other way to put it. I just wanted to show my frustration for people telling me to not play freestyle if I don't like something about it.

How long I've been playing here on CC, the number of games I've played, and my overall winning percentage have nothing to do with this discussion. (Besides, the person with #7 on the Scoreboard has a winning percentage of 31%.) I don't care too much about points and I enjoy playing. This discussion is about wanting the rules to be fair and without loopholes or exploits.

I have my reasons for playing freestyle. I enjoy team frestyle games - usually casual doubles freestyle with my friend Metalmesh. I just checked and we've won 66% of the team freestyle games we've played - so, we enjoy that play style and we understand how to play. So its annoying to hear people saying "Don't play it if you don't like it."

[owenshooter]

I just checked and we've won 66% of the team freestyle games we've played - so, we enjoy that play style and we understand how to play. So its annoying to hear people saying "Don't play it if you don't like it."

be careful, someone else aside from myself might do a search for games you and Metalmesh have played... 66%... ok...
regardless, what you guys are attempting to debate isn't a violation of the rules. and i truly doubt you will get anyone of merit from the freestyle world to even post in this thread... i have MANY problems with freestyle, so i don't play it. you enjoy freestyle, so seems like a better idea for you to either "get over it" or learn how to play using the same tactics that other teams use so succesfully...-0

[Thezzaruz]

what you guys are complaining about in this thread is not going to change. it is legal, it is the clock, it is freestyle.-0

Did you say the same before the old double turns where made illegal???

If you don't want to take advantage of all the legal moves in a type of play then have the grace not to bitch about others who do.

I'm not bitching about those that use them, I just don't think they should be able to use them.

[Soloman]

what you guys are complaining about in this thread is not going to change. it is legal, it is the clock, it is freestyle.-0

Did you say the same before the old double turns where made illegal???

If you don't want to take advantage of all the legal moves in a type of play then have the grace not to bitch about others who do.

I'm not bitching about those that use them, I just don't think they should be able to use them.

The irony Thezzaruz is you argue against this exploit of the rules and apparent loophole yet other loopholes or exploits you are against....LOL I can not say much we are on opposite sides of both exploits currently hear in general you against back to freestyle due to time out and me against revealing location via chat in FOW....Just shows more the complexity and contradictory nature of all of us lol...Although in my defense the instructions do not contradict my position via slick wording lol...

[owenshooter]

The irony I guess is you are gue against this exploit of the rules and apparent loophole yet other loopholes or exploits you are against....LOL I can not say much we are on opposite sides of both exploits currently hear in general you against back to freestyle due to time out and me against revealing location via chat in FOW....Just shows more the complexity and contradictory nature of all of us lol...Although in my defense the instructions do not contradict my position via slick wording lol...

excuse me? this is very unclear. please PM me so we can have a civil conversation about this and spare the thread from being derailed. and seriously, read your first sentence. you basically state that it is ironic that i am against THIS loophole, and that i am against OTHER loopholes? huh? what? seriously, PM me, this makes absolutely no sense. let's have a chat.-0

[Soloman]

The irony I guess is you are gue against this exploit of the rules and apparent loophole yet other loopholes or exploits you are against....LOL I can not say much we are on opposite sides of both exploits currently hear in general you against back to freestyle due to time out and me against revealing location via chat in FOW....Just shows more the complexity and contradictory nature of all of us lol...Although in my defense the instructions do not contradict my position via slick wording lol...

excuse me? this is very unclear. please PM me so we can have a civil conversation about this and spare the thread from being derailed. and seriously, read your first sentence. you basically state that it is ironic that i am against THIS loophole, and that i am against OTHER loopholes? huh? what? seriously, PM me, this makes absolutely no sense. let's have a chat.-0

lol was talking about individual who quoted you and the other guy I will fix though sorry for confusion

[Thezzaruz]

LOL I can not say much we are on opposite sides of both exploits currently hear in general you against back to freestyle due to time out and me against revealing location via chat in FOW....

Interesting... I haven't stated a opinion anywhere in the FoW thread, only asked for you to clarify your point. I'm not the one being inconsistent, that's you trying to argue that one breach of the "spirit of the rules" is fine but another ain't.
I would appreciate it if you didn't make up opinions for me in the future.

[Soloman]

LOL I can not say much we are on opposite sides of both exploits currently hear in general you against back to freestyle due to time out and me against revealing location via chat in FOW....

Interesting... I haven't stated a opinion anywhere in the FoW thread, only asked for you to clarify your point. I'm not the one being inconsistent, that's you trying to argue that one breach of the "spirit of the rules" is fine but another ain't.
I would appreciate it if you didn't make up opinions for me in the future.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Thu May 08, 2008 6:22 pm

I strongly support this. Seems quite clear that taking back-to-back turns is meant to be prohibited but this is a loophole to get around that restriction, close it please.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 10:24 am

poo-maker wrote:
though, because of the loopholes, there are more tactics that you can use.

Not really though. This loophole brings a quite dominant strategy and hence it would reduce the amount of usable strategies atm.



poo-maker wrote:
Those using clicky maps can also start a fraction of a second after the round starts or a fraction of a second after the first person triggers their turn. There wouldn't be time to break them....

Yea this isn't meant to change that, just stop people from taking 2 turns without giving someone else the chance to respond.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Fri May 09, 2008 11:47 am

poo-maker wrote:
Do you guys have any ideas in mind as to what you would like a new rule to be? We definitely don't want a rule change that resembles anything like the old system where players would play at the last minutes. Leaving only a couple of minutes for their opponent to play in that round.

As I see it it should work as it does now but with players being active when the clock runs out being counted the same as if they had activated the new turn. It won't be that big a difference but it should stop any blatant abuse of the "no back-to-back" rule.




Edit: That's what I get for having a smoke mid-post, pre-empted.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Mon May 26, 2008 2:25 pm

wicked wrote:
edit: Just reread thread (thought it was an old one, not a new proposal) and see the suggestion for whoever's "active" at end of turn can't start. That may work.

Yea I don't know how hard it is to code but at least it seemed to be a clear way to tell who should be allowed to start.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Mon May 26, 2008 2:30 pm

Herakilla wrote:
so what happens in 1v1 freestyle speed when both players are active and time runs out? that happens very often

IMO both should be locked out.


Timminz wrote:
If they both time-out, wouldn't that cancel each other out, since neither one ended last?

Could do it that way but I'd think that locking both out makes for a simpler rule.


wicked wrote:
Or should this not apply to speed games?

Can't see why it shouldn't as it seems to be needed there the most...

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Wed May 28, 2008 6:31 pm

Herakilla wrote:
leave speed games alone at least, the block and the whole idea of it will really hurt it

Yea following the rules can be a bitch...

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Fri May 30, 2008 7:57 pm

cramill wrote:
Thats exactly what i was saying. It would be silly if everyone ran out of time and then everyone had to wait untill half the round passed to take their turn. Especially in a casual game where the game is sitting there for 12 hours with everyone not being able to do anything.

Yes it would be silly. But it would almost never happen as the benefit of having the possibility to act directly is great enough for people make sure they end their turn in time. It's a non-issue IMO.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:03 pm

Soloman wrote:
The devil is in the wording it does nort say the last player to end it says the player that triggers a new turn so if time triggers a new turn then no player triggered it and it is open game so they are using the rules to there advantage to the t...

Yes that is correct, that is why it isn't considered cheating. BUT it isn't how the rule is meant to work and hence it is an exploit.

Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
by Thezzaruz on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:35 am

Soloman wrote:
Personally I like freestyle the way it is and the wording is sufficient for me If people are afraid or find this style of play unfair I suggest sequential...

Thankfully you aren't running this site...
Thezzaruz

Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: OTF most of the time.
Private messageWebsite

Hmm Contradict yourself much...NOw can you please repeat your non postion again???

[Thezzaruz]

Hmm Contradict yourself much...NOw can you please repeat your non postion again???

Yes I have a very clear and much voiced opinion on the "double turn" issue, but I have never denied that.

I did however say that I had not stated an opinion on the FoW issue (in the post just above) and that I stand by.

If you still feel that I did contradict myself feel free to prove it. You on the other hand clearly are arguing both sides of the "even though it's allowed it goes against the spirit and thus should be stopped" fence.

[FabledIntegral]

I dislike the double turn exploit - I think it would be cool simply if your turn is active when the clock runs out, you can't start your turn until someone else does, just as if you had ended it with 1 second left.

[Thezzaruz]

I dislike the double turn exploit - I think it would be cool simply if your turn is active when the clock runs out, you can't start your turn until someone else does, just as if you had ended it with 1 second left.

That is exactly the suggestion we are arguing for in the suggestions forum, feel free add your support there.

[Soloman]

I dislike the double turn exploit - I think it would be cool simply if your turn is active when the clock runs out, you can't start your turn until someone else does, just as if you had ended it with 1 second left.

That is exactly the suggestion we are arguing for in the suggestions forum, feel free add your support there.

The argument continues to rage in suggestions people please join in the debate and express your oppinions as it is people are split 50/50 on it...

[gdeangel]

I don't really think the rule is flawed, but something is strange in the implementation...

I have this happen to me in many freestyle games whenever I'm playing a freestyle "pro"... I end the round first in order to be able to take my time time looking at the map and figure out my next move. Other guy finished, and I've got the green light. Everything is as it should be. I study the map for 2-3 minutes, decide where the weak point is, where to deploy, etc.etc.

I click on Start Turn...

The ticking clock icon comes up... not the deploy menus, just the ticking clock.

I click refresh map.

I hit f5

Finally the delpoy buttons show up... a quick glance shows that the other guy is still "red squared". I deploy. Again, ticking clock icon... finally my troops get on the map and now the other guy is "playing", but he hasn't deployed yet... I might still get in first. I quickly attack, and, again, wait icon, and ... what do you know, the other guy's either dropped all his troops somewhere and effectively has made two moves to my one, or, better yet, in the time the server was processing my simple A attack to B command, the other guy manages to rip through my lines having made 7 attacks in the time I "attempted" to make one.

Now I know about clickable maps, and I use it when I'm in a fast game... I find it actually makes this problem WORSE. So the issue as I see it has something to do with the way the server queue is set up, and how the load gets balanced. I say if they can fix this issue, then I like the current rules. If they can't fix this issue, then the thing needs to be scrapped and we should have some kind of sissy rule to limit the ability to take two back-to-back moves.