The map formerly known as World Cities

[General Guster]

Sully,
This is my first ever map foundry suggestion (I think). I LOVE your map...the graphics, font, and game play look superb. I have one very minor suggestion for the city scape heading: could you include that Australian opera dome "thing" as one of the buildings? I think it would be cool to have a structure or two from each continent.

Keep up the good work. We all appreciate the COUNTLESS hours you put into a great map!

[SultanOfSurreal]

yet another swap suggestion (you must get tired of these)

Instead of Johannesberg, I'd suggest Cape Town. Cape Town is only slightly smaller and it's better known, plus it's one of South Africa's three capitals.

also is there a way to move the "New York" text a bit? As it stands it almost completely covers the line that connects it to Montreal, making the connection difficult to discern.

[ender516]

I also suggest uncovering Madagascar (perhaps moving the globe slightly to the right, there is room) just for the sake of looks.

I think if you do this, the label for Perth will have to move to the opposite side of its circle, and then you may find that the text in that area is being crowded. I don't think it would be worth it to uncover Madagascar when it is not a playable area.

also is there a way to move the "New York" text a bit? As it stands it almost completely covers the line that connects it to Montreal, making the connection difficult to discern.

This suggestion I agree with. Moving the "New York" text to the south of the line connecting to London would be a good solution here.

[Robinette]

I can't wait to play this map...

And sorry i didn't know about it sooner...
I would have been happy to help with it's development...

I understand the trickiness and limitations of selecting the cities,
but for fun, I'm listing below the 42 largest cities of the world by population...

NOTE: the RED indicates cities NOT on this map... Also, these #'s include population within the recognized metro area of the city, including the immediate surrounding area outside of the established border of the city.

1. Tokyo, Japan - 28,025,000
2. Mexico City, Mexico - 18,131,000
3. Mumbai, India - 18,042,000
4. Sáo Paulo, Brazil - 17, 711,000
5. New York City, USA - 16,626,000
6. Shanghai, China - 14,173,000
7. Lagos, Nigeria - 13,488,000
8. Los Angeles, USA - 13,129,000
9. Calcutta, India - 12,900,000
10. Buenos Aires, Argentina - 12,431,000

11. Seóul, South Korea - 12,215,000
12. Beijing, China - 12,033,000
13. Karachi, Pakistan - 11,774,000
14. Delhi, India - 11,680,000
15. Dhaka, Bangladesh - 10,979,000
16. Manila, Philippines - 10,818,000
17. Cairo, Egypt - 10,772,000
18. Õsaka, Japan - 10,609,000
19. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil - 10,556,000
20. Tianjin, China - 10,239,000

21. Jakarta, Indonesia - 9,815,000
22. Paris, France - 9,638,000
23. Istanbul, Turkey - 9,413,000
24. Moscow, Russian Fed. - 9,299,000
25. London, United Kingdom - 7,640,000
26. Lima, Peru - 7,443,000
27. Tehrãn, Iran - 7,380,000
28. Bangkok, Thailand - 7,221,000
29. Chicago, USA - 6,945,000
30. Bogotá, Colombia - 6,834,000

31. Hyderabad, India - 6,833,000
32. Chennai, India - 6,639,000
33. Essen, Germany - 6,559,000
34. Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam - 6,424,519
35. Hangzhou, China - 6,389,000
36. Hong Kong, China - 6,097,000
37. Lahore, Pakistan - 6,030,000
38. Shenyang, China - 5,681,000
39. Changchun, China - 5,566,000
40. Bangalore, India - 5,544,000

41. Harbin, China - 5,475,000
42. Chengdu, China - 5,293,000

And here are the populations of 5 more on this map...
50. Toronto, Canada - 4,657,000
59. Madrid, Spain - 4,072,000
73. Sydney, Australia - 3,665,000
81. Montréal, Canada - 3,401,000
86. Berlin, Germany - 3,337,000

Leaving us with 6 cities not in the top 100 of the world...

Anyway... getting 8 out of the top 10 is excellent...
No criticism here... it's just interesting to see.

Later, I'll come up with a few more interesting lists...

[sully800]

Thanks for the info Robinette - it's nice to see it all highlighted like that.

There are many problems with choosing cities, some of which you already alluded to. First of all there are 3 major ways of defining a cities population (City proper, metropolitan area, and contiguous urban region) which create 3 drastically different lists of the largest cities in the world. Secondly, you have to consider the relative importance of a city, currently and historically. Therefore capitals get more weight, cultural centers get more weight etc. And finally the proximity to other large cities, and cities within the same country creates problems of space and a lack of diversity. Shanghai and Seoul are in tightly packed regions which caused them to be excluded (Seoul seems far down your list by the way, by metropolitan area it should be #2, but since Tokyo is #1 it got bumped). Miami was originally included, but there are already many US cities so it was switched in favor of Havana because Cuba was not represented.

In the end the main problem with going by largest population is that India and China have handfuls of cities which cannot be included because of space, and because they are not as well known to the rest of the world (especially our North America/European/Oceania audience on CC).

[Robinette]

Thanks for the info Robinette - it's nice to see it all highlighted like that.

...........Seoul seems far down your list by the way, by metropolitan area it should be #2............

I noticed that too... there are sooo many different criteria that can be used...

On wikipedia, they list the top 20, as of 2003, defining metropolitan area as delineating the urban area as the core, then adding surrounding communities that meet two criteria: (1) Less than 35% of the resident workforce must be engaged in agriculture or fishing; and (2) At least 20% of the working residents commute to the urban core. Using that method provides this result...

1 Tokyo Japan 32,450,000
2 Seoul South Korea 20,550,000
3 Mexico City Mexico 20,450,000
4 New York City United States 19,750,000
5 Mumbai India 19,200,000
6 Jakarta Indonesia 18,900,000
7 São Paulo Brazil 18,850,000
8 Delhi India 18,600,000
9 Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto Japan 17,375,000
10 Shanghai People's Republic of China 16,650,000
11 Metro Manila Philippines 16,300,000
12 Hong Kong-Shenzhen[5] People's Republic of China 15,800,000
13 Los Angeles United States 15,250,000
14 Kolkata India 15,100,000
15 Moscow Russia 15,000,000
16 Cairo Egypt 14,450,000
17 Buenos Aires Argentina 13,170,000
18 London United Kingdom 12,875,000
19 Beijing People's Republic of China 12,500,000
20 Karachi Pakistan 11,800,000

7 out of 10, and 15 out of 20... not bad

[Robinette]

heheheee...

The top 10 cities with the most beautiful women... (from Traveler's Digest)

1. Robinette-Valley just kidding... i'll start over...

1. Stockholm
2. Copenhagen
3. Buenos Aires
4. Varna, Bulgaria
5. Moscow
6. Caracas
7. Tel Aviv
8. Amsterdam
9. Seoul
10. Montreal


Yikes... with 42 cities, you missed 60% of the top ten... hehehee

[SultanOfSurreal]

I've never thought population alone should be the deciding factor anyway... I pushed for Lhasa and Las Vegas (hey, I got one of them in at least), two major cultural centers with relatively small populations.

[ender516]

Ah, culture and Las Vegas: they go together like beer and bananas... Just kidding -- a big part of a culture is how a people entertains itself, and LV is all about entertainment.

[Robinette]

Ah, culture and Las Vegas: they go together like beer and bananas... Just kidding -- a big part of a culture is how a people entertains itself, and LV is all about entertainment.

Hey... about that beer and those bananas... what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!

Las Vegas happens to be the youngest of the 42 cities...
mnnnn... this could make for an interesting trivia question...

Can anyone name the 5 YOUNGEST cities on this map?
HINT: all 5 were established AFTER the American civil war, and only one is in the US

[sully800]

Rome and Cairo probably are on that list...

[Robinette]

Rome and Cairo probably are on that list...

No sully... the list is for the Youngest cities...

Rome is like 700 BC, and Cairo is older i think...
I go now and look it up... be right back...




EDIT: Well, Cairo is newer than i thought, but they're both far from young...

Rome's early history is shrouded in legend. According to Roman tradition, the city was founded by the twins Romulus and Remus on 21 April 753 BC

Cairo: the origins of the modern city are generally traced back to a series of settlements in the first millennium AD

[sully800]

Lookin' Good.

A quick thought on how to help clean up the look a bit. I think you should try to center the names over the circles a bit more.
I know not all of them will be able to center but some of them are way off.

WM

I realized early on that most labels could not be centered above/below their respective circles. Connecting just the right or left end generally saves space in the crowded areas, and I thought it actually made the labeling a bit clearer. This is similar to the strategy employed in Supermax, though I don't have them directly connected (I've thought about doing that though, and I may create a mock up right now). I see that I didn't readjust many of the labels after changing the font, so I will do that and hopefully it will clear things up without trying to center most labels. Thanks and let me know if you'd still prefer a centered label system!

Been observing this map for awhile and like it a lot--since I HATE the classic maps on CC!

When this gets to Final Forge, I'm sure I'll have a few other nitpicks, but, for now... a question: is the argument for including Cairo in Europe/Mediterranean solely along the lines of making it like the real Risk (Hasbro) board? If that's the reason, I totally understand. But as it stands, Cairo leads only to Lagos. And it's in Africa. If you want to be geographically realistic/true, why not include Cairo in Egypt and alter the bonus structure? If you did that, I think a Cairo-Nairobi connection is obvious. Moreover (and I know in a World Cities map, suggestions like this will be rampant), you could also include Addis Ababa (with a possible connection to Mumbai) if you were so inclined, since there is definitely room in East Africa.

Like I've said, I think I know the answer to that question. I just want to see/hear it because I think that ignoring such restrictions can make this map more fun. I'm likely in the minority, but I think a great map like this does NOT have to directly replicate the original Risk map in regards to gameplay.

Thanks Peter, I'm glad you like it! The connections exist in their current state to maintain the gameplay system that you mention. For that reason I have stretched and twisted some bonus regions (hence the regions are Europe+Mediterranaean and Sub-Saharan Africa instead of simply Europe and Africa. I wanted to include Cairo as a city but to get the desired gameplay it fits better in the Northern bonus region. I understand your statement that my rigid gameplay restrictions have somewhat stifled the options for cities, but for my first map I really like this simple and traditional gameplay. As for adding a city or two, I definitely won't do that because then almost every setting would have neutral armies. The next logical step would be 48 cities but that is too drastic of a change for the current gameplay which I think works quite well. I think you see where I'm going with all this...

I must say, I love this map and can't wait for the final product.

The only thing bothering me is that there is only one direct connection between Europe and Asia (Moscow to Novosibirsk).
It seems like there should be some connection between Delhi and either Istanbul or Volgograd. (If there is a reason for such, and you've already said it earlier in the thread, I apologize, but I won't be reading every single post in here)

I also suggest uncovering Madagascar (perhaps moving the globe slightly to the right, there is room) just for the sake of looks.

I also agree with an earlier post, another city in East Africa would be welcome.

Thanks for the support Supermarioluigi! As for the Europe-Asia connection, I think Moscow-Novosibirsk is a great place to connect because they are both cities in the same country (Russia). The Moscow part of Russia is often considered to be European while the vast majority of Russia is clearly on the Asian continent, so this makes a very appropriate (though initially unintentional) connection. I don't which to add any more connections between the two regions because that would make both continents very difficult to hold.

I'm afraid that I can't shift the bonus globe much farther off of Madagascar without interfering with Australia. As another poster said, the Madagascar area is unplayable so it is much less important on this map than Perth. I like the current version since you can at least see that Madagascar exists and was not omitted, but if I am keeping the region labels in the current format I don't think you will ever see the island completely.

Sully,
This is my first ever map foundry suggestion (I think). I LOVE your map...the graphics, font, and game play look superb. I have one very minor suggestion for the city scape heading: could you include that Australian opera dome "thing" as one of the buildings? I think it would be cool to have a structure or two from each continent.

Keep up the good work. We all appreciate the COUNTLESS hours you put into a great map!

Thanks for the compliments! It's awesome that you were moved to make a foundry suggestion, and more will always be welcome. Feedback is critical for map production and very often not enough different voices are heard.

The difficulty with your suggestion is that the current skyline doesn't include any buildings on the map so the Sydney Opera House would really stand out. I thought about making a skyline with one important building or feature from each city on the map, but many of the cities don't have recognizable landmarks. Including landmarks from some cities and not others seems strange, so instead I've tried to create a generic skyline that represents any city. I hope you understand, but if there are any other comments please feel free to share.

yet another swap suggestion (you must get tired of these)

Instead of Johannesberg, I'd suggest Cape Town. Cape Town is only slightly smaller and it's better known, plus it's one of South Africa's three capitals.

also is there a way to move the "New York" text a bit? As it stands it almost completely covers the line that connects it to Montreal, making the connection difficult to discern.

The swap suggestions do become tiresome, mostly because they come from each side of the swap. In this case, Cape Town was originally included in the map because it was the first city I thought of in South Africa. The 3 capital system confuses me, though Cape Town is definitely the best known of the 3. In the end, I gave Johannesburg the nod because it has over double of the population (by metropolitan area which is the criteria I used throughout). I think citizens of South Africa would be happy with either city because they are both important (2 of the 3 "global" cities in Africa according to Wikipedia, for what it is worth).

Moving New York to South of the circle is a great idea. Initially it conflicted with the "To London" label, but I haven't had that problem in a while so it should definitely be moved. Thanks

And Robin, I was being facetious about Rome and Cairo. I am also a bit surprised to learn that Cairo didn't really exist in ancient Egypt - I had always associated the two. Nearby Memphis was a city then and people had settled in the area but it was not a city located next to the pyramids as I imagined. hmpf.

Update to come!

[Robinette]

lol...

bytheway... if your still open to moving the city names around a little, then i would suggest considering the following...

Novosibirsk could be right shifted instead of left shifted,
and Volgograd could be lower.
Just the names, not the cities themselves...


And to reduce the tightness, consider moving Madrid and Los Angeles a little bit into the water...
On this, I'm referring to the circles, not to the names.


I've looked over everything else thouroghly, and i must tip my hat to you...
Oh wait, i don't have that avatar any more... okay, i lift my crescent wrench!

[sully800]

lol...

bytheway... if your still open to moving the city names around a little, then i would suggest considering the following...

Novosibirsk could be right shifted instead of left shifted,
and Volgograd could be lower.
Just the names, not the cities themselves...


And to reduce the tightness, consider moving Madrid and Los Angeles a little bit into the water...
On this, I'm referring to the circles, not to the names.


I've looked over everything else thouroghly, and i must tip my hat to you...
Oh wait, i don't have that avatar any more... okay, i lift my crescent wrench!

Novos was a good call. I had already corrected Volgograd and adjusted many other labels. Notably Honolulu, Perth and many of the ones that were previously centered when they could be left or right aligned.

I also finally got the fading of the water to look better (removing the outer glow on just the water was the trick) and I went through the flags with a fine toothed comb correcting all the light borders and messed up black lines. Now on to the large map Batman!

Click image to enlarge.

[MrBenn]

Sully, do you think you could add a route from London directly to LA? It's somewhere I'd quite like to go, and adding that would be simply magic

On a slightly more serious note, I wonder if it's worth moving the army circle for London, as it obscures the whole of the UK... You could move the "London" text to run across the South of our island, and move the army number slightly out to the NorthWest, so that England at the very least is visible!

Other than that, the "World Cities" text in the title looks slightly stretched vertically.

Good job on the flags - get your large image posted, and the graphics stamp will surely follow

[sully800]

I've generally tried to place the circles so they are centered above the actually city location. Obviously that is not possible in many cases, so I tried to place them with the city at least within the circle. London is in the Southern part of England correct? It looks like I have some room to shift the circle in that direction instead of putting the label there. That might expose a bit of Scotland and Ireland and have the army circle more accurately above the city itself. Let me know what you think.

[MrBenn]

I've generally tried to place the circles so they are centered above the actually city location. Obviously that is not possible in many cases, so I tried to place them with the city at least within the circle. London is in the Southern part of England correct? It looks like I have some room to shift the circle in that direction instead of putting the label there. That might expose a bit of Scotland and Ireland and have the army circle more accurately above the city itself. Let me know what you think.

Makes sense - although my only thought was that the label would be in the right place with the army circle in the sea... My only concern is that with an army number in the circle, you won't be able to see my homeland at all

[Evil DIMwit]

Makes sense - although my only thought was that the label would be in the right place with the army circle in the sea... My only concern is that with an army number in the circle, you won't be able to see my homeland at all

Oh, quit whining. You guys get a whole city! Be glad you don't just get crossed out twice like France.

[sully800]

Makes sense - although my only thought was that the label would be in the right place with the army circle in the sea... My only concern is that with an army number in the circle, you won't be able to see my homeland at all

Oh, quit whining. You guys get a whole city! Be glad you don't just get crossed out twice like France.

I do feel bad for France as Paris was a very deserving city. Just happens to fall in a continent that is far too crowded already, and being centered between London/Madrid/Rome/Berlin is tough for a map like this!

As for covering the land with the circle I think it is a necessary evil for accuracy. You can see the same thing happens in Honolulu and Tokyo essentially because they are on small landmasses. And really, by the logic I laid out you shouldn't be able to see any of the cities that are represented. You can only see the rural areas around the cities on the map, or the water if you are an island.

[sully800]

Here is the large - the title on this one is Helvetica

Click image to enlarge.

And here is the small again, with the title in Futura. Which do you prefer?

Click image to enlarge.

[the.killing.44]

Futura, but try all caps.

[Evil DIMwit]

Counterintuitively, I think I prefer Helvetica. Futura has a more skyscrapery feel that goes with the city but the wider Helvetica has a better command of the whole map.

[ender516]

Futura, but try all caps.

We have very different tastes, you and I. Of the two, I prefer Helvetica, but if Futura were chosen, all caps would make it even worse for me.

To be honest, I don't mind the font in Sully's signature block for this map, provided we could get away from the jaggies (of which both the Helvetica and Futura have a few too, sadly). Also, Sully, Ithought you were going to try the city label font. Did I miss that? What little I know of graphic design says using fewer fonts keeps the project unified, so using only one on the whole thing should look right.

[sully800]

Futura, but try all caps.

We have very different tastes, you and I. Of the two, I prefer Helvetica, but if Futura were chosen, all caps would make it even worse for me.

To be honest, I don't mind the font in Sully's signature block for this map, provided we could get away from the jaggies (of which both the Helvetica and Futura have a few too, sadly). Also, Sully, Ithought you were going to try the city label font. Did I miss that? What little I know of graphic design says using fewer fonts keeps the project unified, so using only one on the whole thing should look right.

A novel idea! I preferred the wider look of Helvetica as well, but it was a bit too plain for my taste. This is trebutchet, the same as the city labels, and I think it looks best of all. Beyond the title font are there any critiques of the large version? I checked it pretty well but there could be mistakes I suppose. And all the attack lines, shadow positions, and city labels are new which I'm sure means some of them could be improved.

Click image to enlarge.