The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[hookshotwillaby]

"Unnecessary ranting"? Dancing Mustard is banned permanently for trivialities, b.k. barunt is banned (for how long?) for other trivialities, etc. etc. ad nauseum, and you call it "unnecessary".

Yes, I do. Ranting is almost always unnecessary and unproductive.

The mods must love you and your obsequious kowtowing and your posts don't carry enough content of any kind to be a danger to them or anyone else. You are clearly a yes man for all seasons.

You keep saying I'm a yes-man, but all that shows is that you're not paying attention.

As to "derailing" the thread, this thread was not originally started for people like you to kiss up to the mods. You derailed the thread from its original purpose when you first started that. This thread was a protest, and your attempts to turn it into a sychophant's dream are very sad.

You should really read the thread before commenting with such ignorance.

As to why i broke my habit of not posting in the forums, you of all people would certainly not be able to understand.

Brilliant!

This is the reason i don't come to the forum. This guy probably posts more than anyone else here, and look at the content - he just doesn't have a whole lot to say, but he says it anyway ad nauseum. How do i even reply to innocuous posts like this? Reminds me of a number of teachers i had in school who made the learning experience tedious.

So you have on one hand people like Mustard and Barunt, who make interesting posts, but break a few nitpicky rules (which let's face it, tons of other people do too and aren't banned for it) and so are banned, then you have people like woodruff who clog up the forums with a lot a highly opinionated, boring tripe, and they remain. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict how this forum will end up.

[jiminski]

This is the reason i don't come to the forum. This guy probably posts more than anyone else here, and look at the content - he just doesn't have a whole lot to say, but he says it anyway ad nauseum. How do i even reply to innocuous posts like this? Reminds me of a number of teachers i had in school who made the learning experience tedious.
So you have on one hand people like Mustard and Barunt, who make interesting posts, but break a few nitpicky rules (which let's face it, tons of other people do too and aren't banned for it) and so are banned, then you have people like woodruff who clog up the forums with a lot a highly opinionated, boring tripe, and they remain. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict how this forum will end up.

As opposed to the brilliance on display in your posts, of course...

heheh come on Wood - the use use of

...'boring tripe'...

never fails to get a chuckle!


anyway what hook is saying, in his own way, is a little humour and mischief is a vital component of any discourse with an aim at fun.

Me speaking now.. heh as i don't want to put words in his mouth, he is more than capable of doing that for himself. The Forum requires analysts such as you too but it surely needs a blend or we may as well all just pack up and die reading dice and self-congratulatory rank threads.

[b.k. barunt]

Heh heh, i see my son has put in a word for me - the least he can do since he brought me to the damn site. I love the part where he tells woodruff that he reminds him of some stoopit teachers that he had - he doesn't know woodruff's a teacher btw, ROTFLMAO.

So i'm off my ban now after a week, and awaiting the inevitable next one. I see woodruff's been kissing ass with a vengeance - maybe they'll award him a junior mod kit like they did with mpjh.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

welcome back BK barunt

[Woodruff]

I see woodruff's been kissing ass with a vengeance - maybe they'll award him a junior mod kit like they did with mpjh.

Apparently, neither you nor your son understands how to read a thread before commenting on it. The two of you should work on that.

[TheProwler]

AAFitz, here's a definition of an analogy: "Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar."

By your incorrect definition/understanding, all analogies would fail.

I was simply displaying how escalating punishment can be carried out properly. While punishments can be made more severe as the number of offenses increase, the punishment is never horrendously disproportionate to the offense.

People tend to like analogies, for some reason. So I used one.

Player, a six month ban or a year ban is still too long for minor infractions - no matter how many times a user has been banned. The possibility of a six month ban would only make some of the more interesting posters here tiptoe around, careful not to upset anyone. They would be stifled and would become uninteresting.

An analogy: It would be like chopping off BK Blunt's nuts and sending him into a school yard. Sure the children would finally be safe. The police wouldn't have to arrest him and toss him into jail every couple of months. But you'd have this fat, old, smelly guy hanging around in the school yard all the time.

Okay, maybe that wasn't the best analogy. I'll agree with you on that, AAFitz.

Sometimes analogies are useful. I simply showed how yours failed, and gave more useful ones. Of course, that depends upon perspective, which Is why I clarified the exact situation for what it was, and why comparing it to life in prison simply doesnt apply even as an analogy.

"Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar."

Life in prison is an absolute, everlasting sentence. So is a lifetime ban. The two things are similar in that respect.

I understand what you are saying about keeping someone in as opposed to keeping someone out. But that is not an aspect of the analogy that is similar between the two things. What is similar, is that you are keeping someone from going where he might want to go (whether that is "in" or that is "out", doesn't matter).

I used the analogy to demonstrate escalating punishment that peaks with a permanent term of punishment. In that way, the analogy does apply.

[TheProwler]

I see woodruff's been kissing ass with a vengeance - maybe they'll award him a junior mod kit like they did with mpjh.

Apparently, neither you nor your son understands how to read a thread before commenting on it. The two of you should work on that.

Like a father and son project.

Maybe they could do it on visiting day. Eh Blunt?

Hahahaha!

[Woodruff]

anyway what hook is saying, in his own way, is a little humour and mischief is a vital component of any discourse with an aim at fun.
Me speaking now.. heh as i don't want to put words in his mouth, he is more than capable of doing that for himself. The Forum requires analysts such as you too but it surely needs a blend or we may as well all just pack up and die reading dice and self-congratulatory rank threads.

The two of you seem to be making the same mistake of presumption. I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone. Just because I tend to post in a more even-handed way doesn't mean I don't see the value in it nor does it mean I don't enjoy it. How any of that relates to the statement by him (with which you seem to agree) that I am a sycophantic yes-man is beyond me.

[jiminski]

anyway what hook is saying, in his own way, is a little humour and mischief is a vital component of any discourse with an aim at fun.
Me speaking now.. heh as i don't want to put words in his mouth, he is more than capable of doing that for himself. The Forum requires analysts such as you too but it surely needs a blend or we may as well all just pack up and die reading dice and self-congratulatory rank threads.

The two of you seem to be making the same mistake of presumption. I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone. Just because I tend to post in a more even-handed way doesn't mean I don't see the value in it nor does it mean I don't enjoy it. How any of that relates to the statement by him (with which you seem to agree) that I am a sycophantic yes-man is beyond me.

heheh i made no mistake Wood... i was just writing something half sensible to add to the "boring tripe" quotation (it's a good example of the fun thing )

[AgentSmith88]

Where the hell is dave? He started this thread and hasn't been back to comment in a while. Anyways...

This is the thread that finally got DM banned for the uninitiated. I had trouble finding exactly what he did to send the mods over the edge and I guess this was the consensus on the straw that broke the camel's back.

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=91235&p=2103164#p2103164

Was it a flame? Yes. However...

It was in response to a flame from the player he flamed. It was witty and I thought particularly spot on. Did he deserve a ban? If the answer to that question is yes than there are a lot fo other people in that thread who deserved one as well. I understand that he was going to get a harsher punishment since he had been punished before, but he wrote nothing worse than what many other people did. Apparently being able to mock someone wittingly is far more of an offense than just spewing a few curse words and repeating the same trite insults over and over again. People were offended because DM could tell you eloquently how much of a dipshit you were for posting something stupid. For those who can laugh at themselves and hurl the witty retorts back, chatting with DM could be a pleasure (one I never got). For those who can't take a joke directed at themselves, well...... I guess DM was an annoying troll/flamer. It's all about perspective.

I don't think permanent bans are the answer. However, I don't believe the mods are entirely to blame. I'm sure the reason DM was punished so many times was because of people's complaints. Mods don't really spend their time reading every post made by everyone in every thread. Their attention is called to reported posts. If I'm a mod and I see 50 different reports about one person then I am going to have to go on the assumption that said player is being annoying to the community. With all the rules about what's permissable (and not permissable) in the forums it would be hard to find someone who hasn't broken at least one rule at some point. The mods (I think) are trying to act in the best interest of the community at large.

So in short: Did you write something annoying, stupid, or incomprehensible in the forums? Did someone call you on it in a funny and witty way? Can't think of a pithy comeback? No worries, just report the post and the mods will ban him for hurting your feelings.

I'm spent....

[timmytuttut88]

I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone.

I think that anyone who offends someone else should get banned.

[PLAYER57832]

I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone.

I think that anyone who offends someone else should get banned.

Sorry, but some people just have too thin a skin.. and a whole class of people consider anyone who disagrees with their position on certain things to be "offensive" .. simply because they disagree.

[jiminski]

I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone.

I think that anyone who offends someone else should get banned.

but that sentiment and its puritanical lack of foresight offends me in a very real sense, Tim... That stance is a metaphysical plane, carpeted wall to moving wall with eggshells.

[AgentSmith88]

I think that was his point....

[timmytuttut88]

I agree completely that a little humor and mischief is vital to the forums. I DON'T agree that the humor and mischief needs to take an inflammatory tone.

I think that anyone who offends someone else should get banned.

Sorry, but some people just have too thin a skin.. and a whole class of people consider anyone who disagrees with their position on certain things to be "offensive" .. simply because they disagree.

I was actually being sarcastic. My real thought on this matter is that, yes, DM may have said somethings to the offense one person, but to the enjoyment of the rest of the community.
I mean what TeamCC fails to understand is that on most sites, when you perma-ban someone he has usually caused such a headache that the community is fine with him being gone. The making of this thread itself completely contradicts any motives TeamCC had to make this a better place because the fact that people want Dancing Mustard back shows that he obviously did more good than harm.
Basically, what I question about DM's banning, is what was TeamCC's motives in perma-banning him? The community obviously liked him so it's not like they were doing it for us.

[b.k. barunt]

Where the hell is dave? He started this thread and hasn't been back to comment in a while. Anyways...

This is the thread that finally got DM banned for the uninitiated. I had trouble finding exactly what he did to send the mods over the edge and I guess this was the consensus on the straw that broke the camel's back.

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=91235&p=2103164#p2103164

Was it a flame? Yes. However...

It was in response to a flame from the player he flamed. It was witty and I thought particularly spot on. Did he deserve a ban? If the answer to that question is yes than there are a lot fo other people in that thread who deserved one as well. I understand that he was going to get a harsher punishment since he had been punished before, but he wrote nothing worse than what many other people did. Apparently being able to mock someone wittingly is far more of an offense than just spewing a few curse words and repeating the same trite insults over and over again. People were offended because DM could tell you eloquently how much of a dipshit you were for posting something stupid. For those who can laugh at themselves and hurl the witty retorts back, chatting with DM could be a pleasure (one I never got). For those who can't take a joke directed at themselves, well...... I guess DM was an annoying troll/flamer. It's all about perspective.

I don't think permanent bans are the answer. However, I don't believe the mods are entirely to blame. I'm sure the reason DM was punished so many times was because of people's complaints. Mods don't really spend their time reading every post made by everyone in every thread. Their attention is called to reported posts. If I'm a mod and I see 50 different reports about one person then I am going to have to go on the assumption that said player is being annoying to the community. With all the rules about what's permissable (and not permissable) in the forums it would be hard to find someone who hasn't broken at least one rule at some point. The mods (I think) are trying to act in the best interest of the community at large.

So in short: Did you write something annoying, stupid, or incomprehensible in the forums? Did someone call you on it in a funny and witty way? Can't think of a pithy comeback? No worries, just report the post and the mods will ban him for hurting your feelings.

I'm spent....

Outstanding post. It would seem that the crybabies who report posts dictate policy here on cc. Aren't we lucky.


Honibaz

[notyou2]

Where the hell is dave? He started this thread and hasn't been back to comment in a while. Anyways...

This is the thread that finally got DM banned for the uninitiated. I had trouble finding exactly what he did to send the mods over the edge and I guess this was the consensus on the straw that broke the camel's back.

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=91235&p=2103164#p2103164

Was it a flame? Yes. However...

It was in response to a flame from the player he flamed. It was witty and I thought particularly spot on. Did he deserve a ban? If the answer to that question is yes than there are a lot fo other people in that thread who deserved one as well. I understand that he was going to get a harsher punishment since he had been punished before, but he wrote nothing worse than what many other people did. Apparently being able to mock someone wittingly is far more of an offense than just spewing a few curse words and repeating the same trite insults over and over again. People were offended because DM could tell you eloquently how much of a dipshit you were for posting something stupid. For those who can laugh at themselves and hurl the witty retorts back, chatting with DM could be a pleasure (one I never got). For those who can't take a joke directed at themselves, well...... I guess DM was an annoying troll/flamer. It's all about perspective.

I don't think permanent bans are the answer. However, I don't believe the mods are entirely to blame. I'm sure the reason DM was punished so many times was because of people's complaints. Mods don't really spend their time reading every post made by everyone in every thread. Their attention is called to reported posts. If I'm a mod and I see 50 different reports about one person then I am going to have to go on the assumption that said player is being annoying to the community. With all the rules about what's permissable (and not permissable) in the forums it would be hard to find someone who hasn't broken at least one rule at some point. The mods (I think) are trying to act in the best interest of the community at large.

So in short: Did you write something annoying, stupid, or incomprehensible in the forums? Did someone call you on it in a funny and witty way? Can't think of a pithy comeback? No worries, just report the post and the mods will ban him for hurting your feelings.

I'm spent....

Outstanding post. It would seem that the crybabies who report posts dictate policy here on cc. Aren't we lucky.


Honibaz

I believe as others have stated that its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, or in the case of CC, the vocal minority is dictating the policy for the silent majority, all the more reason to install a charge of one point everytime someone wishes to "Report this thread". People would think twice before making frivolous complaints and tying up the time of the forum admins.

[stahrgazer]

Offhand, the two ideas I like best are to allow minor infractions to, not quite dissappear completely, but essentially fall off the record, only to be brought back if someone commits a serious offense.

Why bother bringing back a minor offense if someone commits a serious offense? Just deal with the serious offense.

Second, to another escalation beyond permanent. For minor infractions, I can see adding 6 months, then a year. Anything over a year is not much different from a perme-ban anyway.

Why a year for minor infractions? If the offense is minor, the punishment should be minor; escalating, but still minor. Say, day, week, month, six weeks, 3 months for repeated infractions, then if behavior repeats when allowed back, automatically 6 weeks then 3 months; 6 weeks then 3 months; in a cycle. Eventually the person is likely to tire of the game of getting banned.

This also has a tie-in to the justice system in our country. It definitely has tie-ins to the way most schools, even many families, work places operate. That keeps someone who just constantly breaks the rules (yes, DM probably qualifies)

Few justice systems punish jaywalking or speeding the same way murder or armed robbery is punished, no matter how many times a person jaywalks or speeds; some 3 strikes rules were written to appropriately indicate the less minor crimes as the only ones counting toward 3 strikes.

Perma-bans should be left for those who hack the system, either by electronic sabotage or repeated multi-isms. For people just being offensive, there'd probably be less of that if mods addressed offensiveness across the board, rather than just for those who aren't their pets.

[Woodruff]

Perma-bans should be left for those who hack the system, either by electronic sabotage or repeated multi-isms. For people just being offensive, there'd probably be less of that if mods addressed offensiveness across the board, rather than just for those who aren't their pets.

Who are these pets I keep hearing about? I'm not happy with the consistency of how "forum chat versus game chat" is handled, but it seems to me that the forums are handled fairly even-handedly. At least, I don't recall any semi-consistent flamers/trollers who haven't gotten vacations and I've never gotten the impression that someone could avoid vacations just by being friendly to the moderators (I'm fairly friendly to them in the forums, and I've gotten my share).

[clapper011]

stahrgazer wrote:Perma-bans should be left for those who hack the system, either by electronic sabotage or repeated multi-isms. For people just being offensive, there'd probably be less of that if mods addressed offensiveness across the board, rather than just for those who aren't their pets.

it is for this very reason that no admin are to be part of any clan or user group. And for moderators,well I can see how one would think this....however, just because a mod is a friend of someone who is causing trouble, does not mean they would not be punished for causing trouble......just because it is not posted in public that a user was warned or banned, does not mean that they were not. It is always logged when a user has been noted, warned, or banned (for any amount of time). This information is just not made public unless it was posted in the cheating and abuse forum, due to privacy issues.

[jpcloet]

I've given warnings to people I like and respect. However, most of those people I've warned don't have a massive history of wrong doings.

[owenshooter]

I've given warnings to people I like and respect. However, most of those people I've warned don't have a massive history of wrong doings.

not true, you and i have had a few run ins, but nothing major to speak of. why? you know how to approach a person and give a user respect and a bit of the benefit of the doubt. you have come to become one of my favorite moderators on this site, and i only wish you ventured more out of the CLAN area and into other areas where you would be useful...-0

[jpcloet]

I said most.

[owenshooter]

and now t-o-m is perma-banned from the entire site... hope they give him back his maps... this is out of control.-0

[Woodruff]

and now t-o-m is perma-banned from the entire site... hope they give him back his maps... this is out of control.-0

Do you know WHY t-o-m is perma-banned? Because without that detail, you really have no way of knowing that.