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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:27 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
aad0906 wrote:Pharmaceutical company GSK has to pay an outrageous $3 billion to the government. I say we get rid of these excessive government regulations so companies like GSK can continue to create jobs and reduce healthcare cost!Romney 2012!

Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio


IIRC the polio vaccine was discovered by Lederle Labs, part of Cytec - the original creator of Old Spice cologne (also not invented by the government)
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:49 am

I'm imposing a 24-hour Stupidity Break in this thread using the special, emergency powers granted me under Title XVII of the Conquer Club constitution.

For the next 24 hours, people can post things, just don't post anything idiotic.

After this time tomorrow, you may resume posting whatever mad-cap idea flies into your grey matter, unchecked and unfiltered, without any shame at all at how you might be perceived by the Lords of Logic.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Neoteny on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:51 am

Healthcare is a complex, multifaceted issue that affects everyone everywhere, and should be treated as such, rather than a political game.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:22 am

That sounds ideal. If only we could somehow make politicians stop playing their games, provide a clear definition of the common good without marginalizing certain groups (and other problems), and then align the incentives of politicians and bureaucrats to magically provide for the common good, then we're on our way to utopia with a perfect government.

Yay!
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:24 am

Neoteny wrote:Healthcare is a complex, multifaceted issue that affects everyone everywhere, and should be treated as such, rather than a political game.

Keep an eye on the healthcare act, and win a prize!

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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:35 am

saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
aad0906 wrote:Pharmaceutical company GSK has to pay an outrageous $3 billion to the government. I say we get rid of these excessive government regulations so companies like GSK can continue to create jobs and reduce healthcare cost!Romney 2012!

Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio


IIRC the polio vaccine was discovered by Lederle Labs, part of Cytec - the original creator of Old Spice cologne (also not invented by the government)

lol, lol, lol
truth and fiction in one sentence
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:39 am

DJPatrick wrote:Join the first world, guys...Universal health care for ALL citizens should be birthright not a political football....sure you pay towards good health for those around you and you have an identical safety net...Publicly funded healthcare...If your country doesn't have it, it's SICK!!!


To understand that, you have to go beyond the corporate mindspeak that is currently passing for much of US education.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby oVo on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:54 pm

DJPatrick wrote:Universal health care for ALL citizens should be a birthright, not a political football.

Absolutely. Billions of dollars are exported as foreign aid, so extending healthcare to all citizens here should automatic. Don't worry about lost revenue to medical associated corporations or label it socialist or give credit to one political party over the other. Just get it done and call it The American Good Health System.

I've heard so many conflicting "truths" about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that I don't know with any certainty who to believe. For starters the actual name of this health care providing plan is not ObamaCare.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
aad0906 wrote:Pharmaceutical company GSK has to pay an outrageous $3 billion to the government. I say we get rid of these excessive government regulations so companies like GSK can continue to create jobs and reduce healthcare cost!Romney 2012!

Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio


IIRC the polio vaccine was discovered by Lederle Labs, part of Cytec - the original creator of Old Spice cologne (also not invented by the government)

lol, lol, lol
truth and fiction in one sentence


Limiting your rebuttals to "lol lol lol" - as poor of a forensic stratagem as it may be - is probably more effective than your old one of "one of my professors whose name I can't remember told me otherwise, but something suddenly came up and I can't discuss that anymore - gotta run."

So, kudos!

    Anyway, I move for summary judgment from the thread to recognize that Lederle Labs discovered and marketed the polio vaccine and motion for the Thread to deny the rebuttal "lol lol lol" as a de facto abandonment of Player's claims by her.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:06 pm

oVo wrote:For starters the actual name of this health care providing plan is not ObamaCare.


it is according to Barack Obama

http://www.barackobama.com
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:04 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
aad0906 wrote:Pharmaceutical company GSK has to pay an outrageous $3 billion to the government. I say we get rid of these excessive government regulations so companies like GSK can continue to create jobs and reduce healthcare cost!Romney 2012!

Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio


IIRC the polio vaccine was discovered by Lederle Labs, part of Cytec - the original creator of Old Spice cologne (also not invented by the government)

lol, lol, lol
truth and fiction in one sentence


Limiting your rebuttals to "lol lol lol" - as poor of a forensic stratagem as it may be - is probably more effective than your old one of "one of my professors whose name I can't remember told me otherwise, but something suddenly came up and I can't discuss that anymore - gotta run."

So, kudos!

    Anyway, I move for summary judgment from the thread to recognize that Lederle Labs discovered and marketed the polio vaccine and motion for the Thread to deny the rebuttal "lol lol lol" as a de facto abandonment of Player's claims by her.


Here, then:
In 1952 and 1953, the U.S. experienced an outbreak of 58,000 and 35,000 polio cases, respectively, up from a typical number of some 20,000 a year. Amid this U.S. polio epidemic, millions of dollars were invested in finding and marketing a polio vaccine by commercial interests, including Lederle Laboratories in New York under the direction of H. R. Cox. Also working at Lederle was Polish-born virologist and immunologist Hilary Koprowski, who claims to have created the first successful polio vaccine, in 1950. His vaccine, however, being a live attenuated virus taken orally, was still in the research stage and would not be ready for use until five years after Jonas Salk's polio vaccine (a dead injectable vaccine) had reached the market. Koprowski's attenuated vaccine was prepared by successive passages through the brains of Swiss albino mice. By the seventh passage, the vaccine strains could no longer infect nervous tissue or cause paralysis. After one to three further passages on rats, the vaccine was deemed safe for human use.[13][14] On February 27, 1950, Koprowski's live, attenuated vaccine was tested for the first time on an 8-year-old boy living at Letchworth Village, an institution for the physically and mentally disabled located in New York. After the child suffered no side effects, Koprowski enlarged his experiment to include 19 other children.[13][15]


BUT, the real issue is who funded the long line of research leading to the discoveries... not who finally got credit for the discovery (which was not actually Lederle Labs, anyway). I agree that there was a lot of commercial investment. BUT.. that is actually unusual in medicine. And, largely because polio had become the "cause celeb" of the day, thanks at least in part to FDR.

Malaria, however, is an entirely different story.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:09 pm

http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm


Reddit explains Obamacare.

Not funny though =(
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:10 pm

http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/hea ... -quiz.aspx

Take this quiz of the health care law. It's sponsored by Kaiser so you know that it's good.


You answered 9 out of 10 questions correctly, better than 97% of Americans.

You know that I knew the one that I missed, I just clicked the wrong thing.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:13 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
aad0906 wrote:Pharmaceutical company GSK has to pay an outrageous $3 billion to the government. I say we get rid of these excessive government regulations so companies like GSK can continue to create jobs and reduce healthcare cost!Romney 2012!

Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio


IIRC the polio vaccine was discovered by Lederle Labs, part of Cytec - the original creator of Old Spice cologne (also not invented by the government)

lol, lol, lol
truth and fiction in one sentence


Limiting your rebuttals to "lol lol lol" - as poor of a forensic stratagem as it may be - is probably more effective than your old one of "one of my professors whose name I can't remember told me otherwise, but something suddenly came up and I can't discuss that anymore - gotta run."

So, kudos!

    Anyway, I move for summary judgment from the thread to recognize that Lederle Labs discovered and marketed the polio vaccine and motion for the Thread to deny the rebuttal "lol lol lol" as a de facto abandonment of Player's claims by her.


Here, then:
In 1952 and 1953, the U.S. experienced an outbreak of 58,000 and 35,000 polio cases, respectively, up from a typical number of some 20,000 a year. Amid this U.S. polio epidemic, millions of dollars were invested in finding and marketing a polio vaccine by commercial interests, including Lederle Laboratories in New York under the direction of H. R. Cox. Also working at Lederle was Polish-born virologist and immunologist Hilary Koprowski, who claims to have created the first successful polio vaccine, in 1950. His vaccine, however, being a live attenuated virus taken orally, was still in the research stage and would not be ready for use until five years after Jonas Salk's polio vaccine (a dead injectable vaccine) had reached the market. Koprowski's attenuated vaccine was prepared by successive passages through the brains of Swiss albino mice. By the seventh passage, the vaccine strains could no longer infect nervous tissue or cause paralysis. After one to three further passages on rats, the vaccine was deemed safe for human use.[13][14] On February 27, 1950, Koprowski's live, attenuated vaccine was tested for the first time on an 8-year-old boy living at Letchworth Village, an institution for the physically and mentally disabled located in New York. After the child suffered no side effects, Koprowski enlarged his experiment to include 19 other children.[13][15]


Uhhh ... did you read this? You do realize this confirms exactly what I said, right? That Lederle Labs discovered the polio vaccine? You know that, right?

Did you want to provide support for one of your two contributions: (1) the government cured polio, (2) "lol lol lol"? Or do you suddenly have to run but will come back some other time?

PLAYER57832 wrote:BUT, the real issue is who funded the long line of research leading to the discoveries... not who finally got credit for the discovery (which was not actually Lederle Labs, anyway). I agree that there was a lot of commercial investment. BUT.. that is actually unusual in medicine. And, largely because polio had become the "cause celeb" of the day, thanks at least in part to FDR.


OK, got it. The government is responsible for discovering the cure to polio because FDR had it so everyone was aware of it.

As always, Player, your posts provide a roller coaster of hilarity but this is one of the greatest thrill rides you've provided us to date. Please, continue!
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:22 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx

Take this quiz of the health care law. It's sponsored by Kaiser so you know that it's good.


Kaiser as in Kaiser Permanente, the $47 billion insurance mega corporation founded by the super-rich steel-plant owner Henry Kaiser and which is currently under investigation by the State of California for driving Medicaid patients to alleys in LA and dumping them there (some who had colostomy bags still attached to them) and who wrote a $1,000,000 bribe to Barack Obama to get Obamacare passed?

I don't think that sounds like a source I want dribbling their version of information into my mind so I'm going to avoid clicking on the link. You're free to, though. Kaiser Kares!*

    * as long as you pay Kaiser $12,000 in annual premiums and deductibles for a single male age 24 non-smoker, which are not covered by Obamacare (like pretty much everything) ... otherwise you may wake up on a sidewalk with an IV dangling out of your arm
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:09 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Reddit explains Obamacare.


I posted pretty much exactly that earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure nobody read it, though.

OBAMA!!!! SOCIALISM!!!!
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:49 am

Woodruff wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Reddit explains Obamacare.


I posted pretty much exactly that earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure nobody read it, though.

OBAMA!!!! SOCIALISM!!!!


Speaking of reddit, how'd that go?
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby john9blue on Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:54 am

reddit isn't exactly a great bastion of political thinkers, but okay
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:32 am

saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Here, then:
In 1952 and 1953, the U.S. experienced an outbreak of 58,000 and 35,000 polio cases, respectively, up from a typical number of some 20,000 a year. Amid this U.S. polio epidemic, millions of dollars were invested in finding and marketing a polio vaccine by commercial interests, including Lederle Laboratories in New York under the direction of H. R. Cox. Also working at Lederle was Polish-born virologist and immunologist Hilary Koprowski, who claims to have created the first successful polio vaccine, in 1950. His vaccine, however, being a live attenuated virus taken orally, was still in the research stage and would not be ready for use until five years after Jonas Salk's polio vaccine (a dead injectable vaccine) had reached the market. Koprowski's attenuated vaccine was prepared by successive passages through the brains of Swiss albino mice. By the seventh passage, the vaccine strains could no longer infect nervous tissue or cause paralysis. After one to three further passages on rats, the vaccine was deemed safe for human use.[13][14] On February 27, 1950, Koprowski's live, attenuated vaccine was tested for the first time on an 8-year-old boy living at Letchworth Village, an institution for the physically and mentally disabled located in New York. After the child suffered no side effects, Koprowski enlarged his experiment to include 19 other children.[13][15]


Uhhh ... did you read this? You do realize this confirms exactly what I said, right? That Lederle Labs discovered the polio vaccine? You know that, right?

Read again. It says he makes that claim, but Salk put the vaccine out first.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:38 am

john9blue wrote:reddit isn't exactly a great bastion of political thinkers, but okay

Here, some other information:
http://factcheck.org
You can see that many of the claims thrown out repeatedly about healthcare are absolutely wrong (but note they attack both sides, though in this case, its not quite equal due to the huge disinformation move on healthcare):
Summary
Despite what you may have heard in 2011:

■The new health care law won’t cost many jobs (and they’ll be poorly paying jobs at that).
■Republicans aren’t proposing to “end” Medicare (and Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden has signed onto a modified version of the GOP plan).
■Most of the “millionaires” who would pay higher tax rates under a Democratic proposal aren’t job-creating small-business owners.
■President Obama’s mother didn’t really fight to get health insurance coverage as she was dying.
And there was plenty more spin and deception in 2011. Obama claimed he pays a lower tax rate than a teacher. Michele Bachmann endorsed a claim that HPV vaccine causes mental retardation. Joe Biden claimed rapes quadrupled in Flint, Mich., after police layoffs. And that’s just some of the nonsense we debunked.

For our full run-down of the worst political whoppers we encountered during the year, please read on to the Analysis section. And get ready for more in the presidential election year that is about to begin.


link: http://factcheck.org/2011/12/the-whoppers-of-2011/
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:44 am

More... how much will the penalty be and who will pay it.
How Much? [ penalty will people pay?]
The minimum amount — per person — will be $695 once the tax is fully phased in. But it will be less to start. The minimum penalty per person will start at $95 in 2014, the first year that the law will require individuals to obtain coverage. And it will rise to $325 the following year.

Starting in 2017, the minimum tax per person will rise each year with inflation. And for children 18 and under, the minimum per-person tax is half of that for adults.

However, the minimum amount per family is capped at triple the per-person tax, no matter how many individuals are in the taxpayer’s household. So, for example, a couple with one child over 18 (or two children age 18 or under), and no coverage, would pay a minimum of $285 in 2014, $975 in 2015 and $2,085 in 2016. And that would be the minimum no matter how many uninsured dependents a taxpayer has.

The tax would be more for persons with higher taxable incomes. When phased in, it will be 2.5 percent of household income that exceeds the income threshold for filing a tax return. For 2011, those thresholds were $9,500 for a single person under age 65, and $19,000 for a married person filing jointly with a spouse. So, to give a rough calculation, a couple with $100,000 of income might pay a tax of $2,025 if they choose to go without coverage.

But the penalty can never exceed the cost of the national average premiums for the lowest-cost “bronze” plans being offered through the new insurance exchanges called for under the law. We have no way of knowing what that average rate might turn out to be in 2014, but there is reason to think it could be quite high. For example, the total cost of a basic Government Employees Health Association plan currently offered through the Federal Employee Health Benefit program (the model for the state insurance exchanges) totals $9,459 per year for a family plan, and $4,159 for individual coverage.

Update, June 29: The cost of a “bronze” plan could be higher, however. In January 2010 the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office issued this estimate:

CBO, Jan. 11, 2010: Overall, CBO estimates that premiums for Bronze plans purchased individually in 2016 would probably average between $4,500 and $5,000 for single policies and between $12,000 and $12,500 for family policies.

CBO has not issued any new estimate since that one, according to spokeswoman Deborah Kilroe.

Who Collects?

The penalty will be collected by the Internal Revenue Service, which is one reason the chief justice cited for considering it to be a tax. In fact, the penalty is spelled out in Title 26 of the U.S. Code — the “Internal Revenue Code” — under Subtitle D — “Miscellaneous Excise Taxes.”

Partial Coverage

A tax is assessed for each month that a person is not covered. It is pro-rated, so that a person who is not covered for only a single month would pay 1/12th of the tax that would be due for the full year.

So, for example, the minimum tax per person for failing to get coverage would be $7.92 for each month of 2014, $28.75 for each month of 2015, and $57.92 for each month of 2016, when fully phased in.

Refusal to Pay

The law prohibits the IRS from seeking to put anybody in jail or seizing their property for simple refusal to pay the tax. The law says specifically that taxpayers “shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty” for failure to pay, and also that the IRS cannot file a tax lien (a legal claim against such things as homes, cars, wages and bank accounts) or a “levy” (seizure of property or bank accounts).

The law says that the IRS will collect the tax “in the same manner as an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 68” of the tax code. That part of the tax code provides for imposing an additional penalty “equal to the total amount of the tax evaded, or not collected.” It also requires written notices to the taxpayer, and provides for court proceedings.

So it may turn out that the IRS will be suing those who fail to pay the tax for double the amount. But so far, the IRS has not spelled out exactly how it will enforce the new penalty with the limited power the law gives it.

Who’s Exempt?

The law makes a number of exemptions for low-income persons and hardship cases.

“Individuals who cannot afford coverage”: If an employer offers coverage that would cost the employee more than 8 percent of his or her household income (for self-only coverage) that individual is exempt from the tax.

“Taxpayers with income below filing threshold”: Also exempt are those who earn too little to be required to file tax returns. For 2011 — as previously mentioned — those thresholds were $9,500 for a single person under age 65, and $19,000 for a married person filing jointly with a spouse, for example. The thresholds go up each year in line with inflation, so those cut-offs will be higher in 2014, when the tax first takes effect.

“Hardships”: The Secretary of Health and Human Services is empowered to exempt others that she or he determines to “have suffered a hardship with respect to the capability to obtain coverage.”

Other exemptions: Also exempt are members of Indian tribes, persons with only brief gaps in coverage, and members of certain religious groups currently exempt from Social Security taxes (which as we’ve previously reported are chiefly Anabaptist — that is, Mennonite, Amish or Hutterite).


http://factcheck.org/2012/06/how-much-i ... acare-tax/

There is a lot more at the site, but I have posted enough quotes.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:28 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx

Take this quiz of the health care law. It's sponsored by Kaiser so you know that it's good.


Kaiser as in Kaiser Permanente, the $47 billion insurance mega corporation founded by the super-rich steel-plant owner Henry Kaiser and which is currently under investigation by the State of California for driving Medicaid patients to alleys in LA and dumping them there (some who had colostomy bags still attached to them) and who wrote a $1,000,000 bribe to Barack Obama to get Obamacare passed?

I don't think that sounds like a source I want dribbling their version of information into my mind so I'm going to avoid clicking on the link. You're free to, though. Kaiser Kares!*

    * as long as you pay Kaiser $12,000 in annual premiums and deductibles for a single male age 24 non-smoker, which are not covered by Obamacare (like pretty much everything) ... otherwise you may wake up on a sidewalk with an IV dangling out of your arm


You forgot to add that they started this whole mess with bribes to Nixon staff.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:32 am

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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:16 am

No matter how you feel about Freedom, someone can always find a reason to take it away. The best reason to take your freedom and your property for all your life is so that a stranger who is dying can have a chance to live for a few extra days...maybe
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:19 am

No matter how you feel about being free to die randomly of disease or accident, someone will always come along and fight to help you survive
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