ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Juan_Bottom]

why do people keep comparing this (a tax which is not a choice) to other taxes (which are choices) or other forms of insurance (which are choices and also not taxes)?

edit: am i the only one in this thread who is going to WAIT UNTIL THIS IS IMPLEMENTED before deciding whether it was a good idea or not?

This tax is a choice. You pay $90 (in 2014) for putting us all at risk of having to pay for your health care if you get hurt without insurance.
It's a tax on stupidity.

[Juan_Bottom]

[Juan_Bottom]

F*CK YEAH, JESUS!

[Night Strike]

No but why do you have to own car insurance? It's so that if you hit someone else, the other person wont have to pay for everything out of their own pocket. If you caused the accident, it's your responsibility to fix it.
That exactly the same thing that Obamacare is doing. If someone who doesn't have insurance gets sick, you end up paying for everything. Both insurance schemes work exactly the same, by spreading out the risk involved.

For being correct about car insurance, how can you also be so wrong on health insurance? If you want to fix the insurance problem, you hold the people who use the medical care accountable. Stop treating people at emergency rooms if it's not an emergency and they can't pay. Stop allowing people to discharge medical bills in bankruptcy. Hold the people who use the care accountable, just like you do in the car insurance industry. Car insurance exists to protect other people (and to protect yourself from suits); health insurance exists to pay for your own personal care. They are fundamentally different systems, yet you want to treat them exactly the same by forcing everybody to purchase it.

[Juan_Bottom]

You want to let people die if they need medical care but don't have money:
Even kids who's only crime was to be born into a poor family.

This sums up our ideological differences pretty well. I only want to make the world a better place than I found it.

[WILLIAMS5232]

basically, i just don't like freeloaders. i'm not going to do google searches all day because i've always had insurance. and i probably always will. (notice i said probably, meaning i do realize that it is possible for me to not be able to maintain insurance, i just don't forsee that circumstance given my current situation ). so there is no real need for me to worry about this. unless of course i notice it in my pocket book. which is what is really got me chomping at the bit. no matter what you all read and try to tell me, i know that nearer or further down the road, this bill was put into place to help someone other than the poor. and i know for sure it's not going to help me.

You also don't like to respond to anyone who responds to you. Nor do you try to understand any facts around the situation, you just believe what you believe no matter what because you believe.

much like you believe that this heath care bill is good just because you believe it.

i thought i did respond, the fairy tale nation you live in, is not the one i live in. mine runs off of greed and lazy people, yours works with money trees and free gumdrops to all the kids.

i'm not going to sit here and read website after website of misinformation. i get my opinions from real life. i see how it works, and i go with that. i know i work pretty hard at what i do. i know this because i work with people everyday that don't. this translates into some sort of poll that you forum geeks/google searchers "look up" all the time. my poll says that 100 out of 104 people are generally lazy. they spend several hours a day leaning on the water cooler, also they are misinformed as to what the govt does and why it exists. 80 out of 88 americans eat unhealthy and drink cokes, further degrading their health that makes my insurance go up. 34 out of 42 americans know that they most likely wont get fired because the company does not want to pay for their unemployment. 30 out of 40 students that gain a college degree don't know much more that they would have learned living a real life, surprisingly though, 1 out of every 1 Americans that has made sacrifices and earned their keep believe that this healthcare bill is a waste of time and effort and will do nothing to make the world a better place.( source williams5232, 2012 ) but like i said before, i sure hope it does. especially since i will help pay the tab on it. i mean, i'm an investor. is it not a choice of mine to believe or not believe in my investment? i'm basically gambling....only, i'm forced to do it.

these "facts" that you believe that will all come true, are no better than the facts that are written in the bible that you criticize. really, doing this will not help you sway a christian to thinking you are right all along.

i mean... you do know you're mocking christians right?

[Juan_Bottom]

If you want to fix the insurance problem, you hold the people who use the medical care accountable.

Everyone in the world uses healthcare. Just by being born you become a walking time bomb. So we need to hold everyone mutually accountable.

Stop allowing people to discharge medical bills in bankruptcy.

Our healthcare is so excessively expensive that it is the leading cause of bankruptcies. It would be 30% of our GNP by 2030. It's over 17% now. People can't afford healthcare because the middle class has been shrinking at the same time that healthcare is rising. Insurance companies respond by cutting coverage themselves. Your current system does not work.

David Himmelstein, a professor of public health at City University in New York and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, has researched medical-related bankruptcies for the past decade. He says those bankruptcies went up substantially between 2002 and 2007, even before the Great Recession hit - and that the vast majority involved people who had some level of insurance.

"Most people who are driven into bankruptcy by illness and medical bills actually have coverage, but it's such inadequate coverage that it doesn't keep them from financial ruin. They're facing huge premiums and copayments and deductibles - and things that aren't covered by their insurance."

Car insurance exists to protect other people (and to protect yourself from suits); health insurance exists to pay for your own personal care. They are fundamentally different systems, yet you want to treat them exactly the same by forcing everybody to purchase it.

They are not fundimentally different. In a car accident, insurance pays out to the person who was not responsible for the accident. Unless you don't have insurance. Then the guy you hit is going to have some unexpected costs.
If you go to a hospital but don't have insurance, Taxpayers and everyone's insurance pays for it. Then we all have unexpected costs. The point wasn't about responsibility, it was about where the risk is spread to. Insurance spreads out the risk, so we all pay less.

[WILLIAMS5232]

If you go to a hospital but don't have insurance, Taxpayers and everyone's insurance pays for it. Then we all have unexpected costs. The point wasn't about responsibility, it was about where the risk is spread to. Insurance spreads out the risk, so we all pay less.

is this an incentive to not take care of yourself better.. or make poor health choices.
it's a shame that these people need to be told to go have frequent checkups to learn how to live a more healthy lifestyle.

it's easy, don't smoke, don't drink in excess, cut back on sugar, don't do drugs, and lay off the fried foods.
bam. poor mans survival kit.

you see, i don't have healthcare costs. and if i did, as a human being, i would feel obligated to make a better effort to pay for them, instead of buying my kids barbie corvettes, and wasting money on things that i don't really deserve.

i mean, what are these people going to spend their money on when they get free heathcare? nike's.... i donj't know, mcdonalds quarter pounders????

seriously, you can say all you want that this healthcare law is going to make people live healthier fuller lives, but do you really think that if people don't care now, that they magically will in the future.

and quit saying we want terminally ill people to die, that's not what we want. our main focus is the ones that will take advantage of this great new system.

[notyou2]

Juan you are preaching to the morally bankrupt and the daft.

[Juan_Bottom]

i'm not going to sit here and read website after website of misinformation. i get my opinions from real life. i see how it works, and i go with that.

OK -FINE
Then how has Obamacare directly affected your life and influenced your opinion of it?

my poll says that 100 out of 104 people are generally lazy. they spend several hours a day leaning on the water cooler, also they are misinformed as to what the govt does and why it exists. 80 out of 88 americans eat unhealthy and drink cokes, further degrading their health that makes my insurance go up. 34 out of 42 americans know that they most likely wont get fired because the company does not want to pay for their unemployment. 30 out of 40 students that gain a college degree don't know much more that they would have learned living a real life, surprisingly though, 1 out of every 1 Americans that has made sacrifices and earned their keep believe that this healthcare bill is a waste of time and effort and will do nothing to make the world a better place.( source williams5232, 2012 )

Oh
So you lied. You actually only believe in facts that you have invented. So you are voicing your opinion of Obamacare based on no actual facts or observations, only by whatever bullshit that you've already decided in your head.
Please, tell us more.

these "facts" that you believe that will all come true, are no better than the facts that are written in the bible that you criticize. really, doing this will not help you sway a christian to thinking you are right all along.

i mean... you do know you're mocking christians right?

I'm not mocking a single Christian. And I really want to clarify this for people like you who may have misunderstood, I'm not mocking a single person who sees Jesus as someone they should aspire to be and follows in his example. I have nothing but respect for someone like Player who looks at Christ as a selfless hero. I myself am no Christian, but am still follower in Christ's example none-the-less. I don't need to believe that he was a living god to believe that he was a great guy who I would do well to be more like.
But yes, I am mocking the people who only pretend that they follow Christ. We all know who they are.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan you are preaching to the morally bankrupt and the daft.

HEAR HEAR!
I just don't know how this nation endures. I know why I keep going in threads like this and in real life discussions, but I don't know how we as a people hold ourselves together anymore.

I want to tell you though that it's kind of fun being labeled a militant Atheist and still being a far better person than our biggest Bible-thumpers. And that's also both on CC and on the real world.

[jj3044]

is this an incentive to not take care of yourself better.. or make poor health choices.
it's a shame that these people need to be told to go have frequent checkups to learn how to live a more healthy lifestyle.

You would be surprised at how few people with insurance actually have an annual well visit (preventive screenings). This is one of the very things that the law tries to change, incenting plan participants to go to the doctor to begin with. Nurses for example, who LIVE the system, are among the unhealthiest. I see it all of the time in the line of work I am in.

it's easy, don't smoke, don't drink in excess, cut back on sugar, don't do drugs, and lay off the fried foods.
bam. poor mans survival kit.

You obviously do not have an understanding of health psychology, behavior change, or addiction (and I'm not just talking smoking in this example). It is NOT as easy as you think.

you see, i don't have healthcare costs. and if i did, as a human being, i would feel obligated to make a better effort to pay for them, instead of buying my kids barbie corvettes, and wasting money on things that i don't really deserve.

While there are many people in this world that do belong in this category of freeloaders, and I agree with your position, this is not everyone, and you can't generalize like this. There are babies and children that die every day because of lack of access to the system, and they were not even given the chance to be a productive member of society.

seriously, you can say all you want that this healthcare law is going to make people live healthier fuller lives, but do you really think that if people don't care now, that they magically will in the future.

Please re-read my post, especially the part of it relating to value-based benefit designs utilizing financial incentives to affect behavior change. There are a ton of studies that show how effective these designs can be at increasing proper utilization of the healthcare system, saving money. The law does a lot to move plan designs in this direction.

[WILLIAMS5232]

OK -FINE
Then how has Obamacare directly affected your life and influenced your opinion of it?

it hasn't yet, of course. can we first let it take full affect please? which is way past 2018 or something like that?
i didn't look this up by the way, becasue i don't care enough about it to. after all, whatever we both say here, is really just entertainment, and that's it. i just heard it from the horses mouth in an interview he did, and i remember him saying that there were parts in there that would take place a long time from now. that's all i know. could you look that up for me please?

which is why i've stated in previous other posts that i sure hope it is a good thing.

Oh
So you lied. You actually only believe in facts that you have invented. So you are voicing your opinion of Obamacare based on no actual facts or observations, only by whatever bullshit that you've already decided in your head.
Please, tell us more.

no i didn't lie. i said, or implied, that i don't need to look stuff up on the internet to see how things work. because i am a functioning member in society and i have various experiences and encounters on how we ( people in general ) go about our daily routines, i've dealt with cheats, drug addicts, priests, preachers, store clerks, hobo's, mailmen, landlords, athletes, conquer club players, six flag workers.... this list could really go on for a while so i'm going to stop it right now. i've seen the good and the bad, and i don't believe a politician no farther than he cares for you and your poor. much less what he writes in a bill. all i'm saying is my day to day experiences are just as good as whatever skewed poll you look up. now, as far as hard facts go, like population numbers... death rates....things like that. i've got no beef. tell me, what's the death rate right now for people that have died in this country this year due to not receiving heath care, not counting the ones that were able to receive healthcare but unable due to circumstance ( car wrecks, heart attacks, things where they just didn't make it in time )? could you look that up for me too.

I'm not mocking a single Christian. And I really want to clarify this for people like you who may have misunderstood, I'm not mocking a single person who sees Jesus as someone they should aspire to be and follows in his example. I have nothing but respect for someone like Player who looks at Christ as a selfless hero. I myself am no Christian, but am still follower in Christ's example none-the-less. I don't need to believe that he was a living god to believe that he was a great guy who I would do well to be more like.
But yes, I am mocking the people who only pretend that they follow Christ. We all know who they are.

noted, and i agree. apologies.

[WILLIAMS5232]

You obviously do not have an understanding of health psychology, behavior change, or addiction (and I'm not just talking smoking in this example). It is NOT as easy as you think.

acutally i do. this is why i'm so straight forward on it. although i never had a serious coke problem or heroine... or really any hard drug, i was hooked on nicotine for close to around 12 - 13 years. i quit in 2007 cold turkey. after many failed attempts. finally, the cold turkey worked. which is just another beef i have with our "system"

show: rant

also, i've seriously limited my sugar intake, and my fried foods. like i may have a fast food meal once a month and that's it. i'll eat out on special occasions and things too. i've not drank a coke or really anything but water ( with the exception of a couple of beers once in a while ) since memorial day on my dads birthday. and i know you probably don't beleive me, because i wouldn't either. just putting that out there as to why i go so crazy on staying healthy. once i got past a year or so of living like this, it's all i want to do. and i feel so much better. i run becasue it's enjoyable, and i stay pretty active as well.
it's really in anyone, and how someone can let theirself get to a point where it's no longer an option... well. i just don't know what to say about that without hurting feelings.

While there are many people in this world that do belong in this category of freeloaders, and I agree with your position, this is not everyone, and you can't generalize like this. There are babies and children that die every day because of lack of access to the system, and they were not even given the chance to be a productive member of society.

under 18... free heathcare. problem solved. i got no beef setting aside a few dollars for this. some sort of incentive for the parents that don't use this.

Please re-read my post, especially the part of it relating to value-based benefit designs utilizing financial incentives to affect behavior change. There are a ton of studies that show how effective these designs can be at increasing proper utilization of the healthcare system, saving money. The law does a lot to move plan designs in this direction.

although, i'll admit, and i probalby wont reread the post, i think i get what you're trying to say. is it if you start people on the right track, most likely they'll stay on the right track?

like speeding tickets.. and red light cameras?

i'm joking of course, kind of. if there were a statistically proven plan that could gaurantee a specific timeline that would create all around a more responsible families, and the such. i'd be all for it. but the further we go down the road that i, of course this is just me, think we are on. i just can't see people ever learning to take care of themself anymore. and the more you allow them to not have to. the less they will. as colonial americans, we were pretty much self sufficient. and the things we didn't have, we didn't really need. could you see nancy pancy using an outhouse now? or butchering a chicken? haha. now of course, they had hardships that either killed them or made them stronger, but they took it as it came and it was what was expected. i wasn't around back then, i have read some journals and things from those days, and i have to say. i would have loved to have lived back then... i think.

now adays, we have triple a to help us change tires. is it becasue they care about our overall safety. or do they just want our money.

[Juan_Bottom]

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/dying- ... insurance/
Controlling for alcohol and tobacco use, 45,000 people die each year from lack of Insurance.
"The uninsured are 40 percent more likely to die prematurely."

In 2008, four times as many U.S. Army veterans died because they lacked health insurance than the total number of U.S. soldiers who were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan in the same period. That's right: 2,266 veterans under the age of 65 died because they were uninsured.

But that's not the whole story. That doesn't address the strain on our economy or our hospitals created by people without insurance.
There are currently more than 50,000 Americans who don't have insurance and when they get sick, John Q. taxpayer bails them out. This new system is attempting to end the freeloading that you hate so much, because they will be coerced to get insurance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/busin ... wanted=all

For example, Denver Health, a public hospital system, had a 19 percent increase in emergency visits by uninsured patients in November — to 3,325, up from 2,792 a year earlier.
Denver Health expects the amount of care it delivers for which it will never be paid to grow to more than $300 million this year, compared with $276 million in 2007.

And for those who survive their battle with illness, or at least put it off:

As part of a research study at Harvard University, our researchers interviewed 1,771 Americans in bankruptcy courts across the country. To our surprise, half said that illness or medical bills drove them to bankruptcy. So each year, 2 million Americans — those who file and their dependents — face the double disaster of illness and bankruptcy.”
Every 30 seconds in the United States, someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem. That adds up to well over 1 Million Americans that the study linked health issues with bankruptcy.

That's more than 1 million unpaid medical bills. At any point in time, there are an additional 200,000 Americans who qualify for bankruptcy, but can't afford it or refuse to accept it.

62% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were tied to medical expenses.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... ine_09.pdf

An estimated three-quarters of people who are pushed into personal bankruptcy by medical problems actually had insurance when they got sick or were injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/busin ... ddebt.html

By having everyone covered by health insurance, the cost will go down because the risk to hospitals and the government will go down. Bills will be paid, so they wont have to charge extra for services to cover the losses that they take when people have to file for bankruptcy or can't pay because they have no insurance.
And once again, it was going to be 30% of our GNP by 2030. We've got to do something to stop all of this.

And at any rate, you can still choose to not have insurance. But you have to pay the tax.

[Woodruff]

as much as ya'll talk about "caring for your fellow man" and all. i call horse shit on that. if you really cared like you say you do, you'd be helping someone right now, and you wouldn't have time to post things on this site. i mean, how much do you really care. enough to critize others for not caring? but not enough to really help people? and i'm not talking about giving out a couple of cans of beans to the shelter. when/if i ever have to help the people that i care about it, it's all in.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course (though I believe I did make the comment you're referring to)...but last school year, my AFJROTC unit (of 82 cadets) performed 4,280 hours of community service. I am not making those numbers up, and can provide the detailed list if you REALLY want me to. We have myself and one other as instructors, and one of us is required to be in attendance at every community service event we do. Yes, I really do care about helping people, and I am trying to instill that same sense of service to others in as many cadets as I can.

[saxitoxin]

What "whole mess?"

I'm talking about the pro-Obamacare health insurance mega-corporation that, in the year 2012, is under investigation for dumping Medicaid patients with colostomy bags and loose IVs dangling off their limbs in alleys to die and that is one of Barack Obama's major campaign donors.

What are you talking about? Sorry, Juan, this was about as intellectually astute of a comment as Player posting "lol lol lol" to avoid having to admit she didn't know what she was talking about when she was furiously cutting and pasting Aetna, Inc. (NYSE: AET) talking points.

This is what I'm talking about:

So you're saying Obama is as bad as Nixon or what?

But in the spirit of compromise, I also believe that this is the best that we're gonna do for a while. So I compromise because I believe something is better than nothing.

LMAO yeah I keep hearing that - "we'll sell ourselves into slavery to Aetna, UHC, Kaiser, Blue Cross because, maybe one day things will be better."

Obamacare was only passed with millions of dollars in input from those companies. You honestly think they're so dumb that they would have paid for this law if they thought it was a slippery slope to their own demise? This isn't the best you're gonna get for awhile. This is the best you're gonna get ever. Now that your president has handed his major campaign donors effective police power to compel people to buy their products they have no incentive to let go.

As a great man once said ...

We can fight them now when you have little chance of winning or fight them later when we have no chance at all.

You chose to fight them later. Enjoy the chains. They fit you well.

[saxitoxin]

Here, then:

In 1952 and 1953, the U.S. experienced an outbreak of 58,000 and 35,000 polio cases, respectively, up from a typical number of some 20,000 a year. Amid this U.S. polio epidemic, millions of dollars were invested in finding and marketing a polio vaccine by commercial interests, including Lederle Laboratories in New York under the direction of H. R. Cox. Also working at Lederle was Polish-born virologist and immunologist Hilary Koprowski, who claims to have created the first successful polio vaccine, in 1950. His vaccine, however, being a live attenuated virus taken orally, was still in the research stage and would not be ready for use until five years after Jonas Salk's polio vaccine (a dead injectable vaccine) had reached the market. Koprowski's attenuated vaccine was prepared by successive passages through the brains of Swiss albino mice. By the seventh passage, the vaccine strains could no longer infect nervous tissue or cause paralysis. After one to three further passages on rats, the vaccine was deemed safe for human use.[13][14] On February 27, 1950, Koprowski's live, attenuated vaccine was tested for the first time on an 8-year-old boy living at Letchworth Village, an institution for the physically and mentally disabled located in New York. After the child suffered no side effects, Koprowski enlarged his experiment to include 19 other children.[13][15]

Uhhh ... did you read this? You do realize this confirms exactly what I said, right? That Lederle Labs discovered the polio vaccine? You know that, right?

Read again. It says he makes that claim, but Salk put the vaccine out first.

It kind of doesn't matter because Jonas Salk was researching for March of Dimes ... also not government funded. I still maintain that Lederle Labs - on the basis of putting a vaccine to market first - cured polio, but even if you go with Salk, your claim "the guv'mint" cured polio is still delusional.

Except, that is not what I actually said.

What I said is that governments provided a lot of the research that led to a cure. .

Nope:

Player:"Yeah, never mind that it was the government, not private companies who came up with treatments for malaria, for polio"

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&start=3555

I don't know if you realize but your old posts don't simply disappear once you post something else.

Now go eat a d**k. I'm tired of you and Juan lapdogging and groveling at the altar of power of your precious genocidal Arab Murder Regime. You're like the Germans cheering the Nazis after they introduced Workers Comp insurance. "Well the Jews in the oven next door create an unpleasant odor as they're baking but, hey, we'll get $37/week now if we get asbestos poisoning!" Yes, you're a glassy-eyed Nazi sycophant.

All you eels in the spectator box - spare me the Godwin's law B.S. unless you want my cock in your mouth.

[jj3044]

William:
First of all, congratulations on quitting smoking years ago, and it sounds like you have intrinsic (internal) motivation to live healthfully. You are right in the fact that if more people had this frame of mind, we wouldn't be in the dire situation that we are in.

although, i'll admit, and i probalby wont reread the post, i think i get what you're trying to say. is it if you start people on the right track, most likely they'll stay on the right track?

This is exactly the point... those without internal motivation need something to kick them in the rear end to start them on the path of health. This can be as simple as a $50 incentive to get your annual screenings, or something like your brother having a heart attack and seeing him almost die in the hospital because he smokes, eats terrible, and doesn't exercise.

Going back to your example, I'm sure there was some external factor that prompted you to make a change, or maybe you one day realized that you were on a path to an early grave. Now that you made those changes and feel great, all the motivation you need IS the fact that you feel great.

[saxitoxin]

GreecePWNS made a valuable and salient point regarding the French healthcare system which is a beautiful model.

I also like that of the Dutch which, IIRC, even has an opt-out so people like NS could claim a philosophical disagreement (if they were inclined) and simply be removed from coverage and obligation to pay that portion of their taxes.

Either of these systems are 20 million times better than simply giving a $47 billion corporation police power to compel you to buy the shittiest possible product off which they can maximize their profits. (Or, for that matter, the filthy assembly-line Factory Hospitals of the UK and Canada and Australia.)

[WILLIAMS5232]

Controlling for alcohol and tobacco use, 45,000 people die each year from lack of Insurance tobacco use.
"The uninsured are 40 percent more likely to die prematurely. "

what is prematurely? suffocating with or without the oxygen bottle? my mom's dad died ten years after he quit smoking, probably just as excruciating a death as those that were not insured.

But that's not the whole story. That doesn't address the strain on our economy or our hospitals created by people without insurance.
There are currently more than 50,000 Americans who don't have insurance and when they get sick, John Q. taxpayer bails them out. This new system is attempting to end the freeloading that you hate so much, because they will be coerced to getgiven insurance.

so what really changes here. let's assume that insurance costs for me does go up until they go down. we'll both have to wait and see. except of course in your fantasy land where money is no object. how often is it that prices usually tend to go up and not down? don't that usually happen with everything. because people who are in the business to make money, strive to make it right?

62% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were tied to medical expenses.

can't we just say, that bankruptcy comes from owing more than you have, or can make?
so these people that overextended on houses they couldn't afford full of overpriced furniture and luxery cars in the driveway, really didn't need the things they thought were so important at the time.
if you file bankruptcy, i'm going to have to think you are in debt. meaning you owe money that you don't have. if you're modest house of say 50,000 is paid for, instead of owing 400,000 bucks on a nice luxery one. then you're bank may tend to loan you a little more. especially when they see you take care fo things.... but when you're 200,000 dollar medical bill nearly buckles you and you see you'll never get that house paid for.. isn't it much easier to lean on the govt and just let everyone else flip the bill. heck, you can always start over.

By having everyone covered by health insurance, the cost will go down because the risk to hospitals and the government will go down. Bills will be paid, so they wont have to charge extra for services to cover the losses that they take when people have to file for bankruptcy or can't pay because they have no insurance.
And once again, it was going to be 30% of our GNP by 2030. We've got to do something to stop all of this.

And at any rate, you can still choose to not have insurance. But you have to pay the tax.

do you think that doctors and insurance companies are going to lose money. when doctors start to make less they will charge more for their fees, or our medical system will go down the drain by not having quality doctors because the govt will try to manipulate the amount the doctors are allowed to charge, because of course as we can see. the govt is in bed with the insurance companies. or as the doctors charge higher fees, the insurance companies will do the same. because we know they're not going to make less money. and now the doctors are in bed with the govt. no matter what, prices will go up. and it's because we ( the majority of america ) think the govt is the awnser to all our problems.

if you took insurance completely out of the equation, there would be no way that health care would cost so much. because only the elite 1% that you despise could afford it.

insurance makes money off of knowing you feel insecure about your future. but they also know that most likely you will not get sick. let's say 1 out of every 10 people cost them 1000 dollars a month in hospital costs. well damn. this is easy. let's charge all ten 200 dollars apiece and then we'll give 100 to the doctors and we'll keep 100 for ourself.
well now the doctors say... hey now! where doing all the work here... if you're going to do it like that, then i want a little more. this goes back and forth until now you are forced to pay insurance because that's all you can afford.
can't you see this is a racket. all i can see now, is this is fixing to get out of control because they now have the power backed by the govt to slowly increase rates that may not be noticable in the short term, but i would bet my health insurance now. that i had before obamacare, that there will be a much more rapid increase in insurance premiums in the next 10 years that there were in the last 10. or any other ten you'd like to use.

[Phatscotty]

GreecePWNS made a valuable and salient point regarding the French healthcare system which is a beautiful model.

I also like that of the Dutch which, IIRC, even has an opt-out so people like NS could claim a philosophical disagreement (if they were inclined) and simply be removed from coverage and obligation to pay that portion of their taxes.

Either of these systems are 20 million times better than simply giving a $47 billion corporation police power to compel you to buy the shittiest possible product off which they can maximize their profits. (Or, for that matter, the filthy assembly-line Factory Hospitals of the UK and Canada and Australia.)

Why does this remind me of the rifles sold to the Army during the revolution, and then they discovered the rifles did not possess the flints required to fire them....and the flints needed to be purchased separately.

What saxi points out is the oldest trick in the book. When the government is paying, it's maximum profits for the shittiest possible product all around. $1,200 toilet seats and $800 coffee makers.....one for each office....

[saxitoxin]

GreecePWNS made a valuable and salient point regarding the French healthcare system which is a beautiful model.

I also like that of the Dutch which, IIRC, even has an opt-out so people like NS could claim a philosophical disagreement (if they were inclined) and simply be removed from coverage and obligation to pay that portion of their taxes.

Either of these systems are 20 million times better than simply giving a $47 billion corporation police power to compel you to buy the shittiest possible product off which they can maximize their profits. (Or, for that matter, the filthy assembly-line Factory Hospitals of the UK and Canada and Australia.)

Why does this remind me of the rifles sold to the Army during the revolution, and then they discovered the rifles did not possess the flints required to fire them....and the flints needed to be purchased separately.

LOLWUT

What saxi points out is the oldest trick in the book. When the government is paying, it's maximum profits for the shittiest possible product all around. $1,200 toilet seats and $800 coffee makers.....one for each office....

it's spelled "orifice"

[jj3044]

insurance makes money off of knowing you feel insecure about your future. but they also know that most likely you will not get sick. let's say 1 out of every 10 people cost them 1000 dollars a month in hospital costs. well damn. this is easy. let's charge all ten 200 dollars apiece and then we'll give 100 to the doctors and we'll keep 100 for ourself.
well now the doctors say... hey now! where doing all the work here... if you're going to do it like that, then i want a little more. this goes back and forth until now you are forced to pay insurance because that's all you can afford.
can't you see this is a racket. all i can see now, is this is fixing to get out of control because they now have the power backed by the govt to slowly increase rates that may not be noticable in the short term, but i would bet my health insurance now. that i had before obamacare, that there will be a much more rapid increase in insurance premiums in the next 10 years that there were in the last 10. or any other ten you'd like to use.

Actually, this is completely false. Under the new legislation, insurance companies must use at least 85% of premium revenues on paying member claims. That means only up to 15% of premiums can pay for overhead. If an insurance company spends less than 85% on claims, they must give a rebate to the consumer.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, this is completely false. Under the new legislation, insurance companies must use at least 85% of premium revenues on paying member claims. That means only up to 15% of premiums can pay for overhead. If an insurance company spends less than 85% on claims, they must give a rebate to the consumer.

Which is hilarious and shows just how much of the law (100% of it) was written by Obama's campaign donors at Aetna. To wit:

... in 1993, insurance companies typically spent 95% of customers' premiums on medical benefits (this is called the "Medical Loss Ratio"). By 2009, many insurance companies were routinely denying policy claims in order to ensure that no more than about 85% of premiums were put back into medical benefits, while plowing the excess profits into executive salaries.

http://healthcareprovider.info/forprofit/

What a bill of sale the the Dupes of America were sold. Obama: "Here's a pile of shit I painted gold!" Sheeple: "Thank You M'Lord!"