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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:28 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, there's problems with the word 'free', but "Free markets" refers to unhampered markets, in that you can trade in anything without the government intervening (by tariffs, taxes, and its regulations).

If one person has the ability to purchase something and others don't, how is this free?

There's a difference between a budget constraint (i.e. only have $100 per week to spend) and being prevented from purchasing something (e.g. by government decree). Freedom depends on the latter, not the former. Budget constraints don't act; they can't 'imprison'.


But functionally speaking, being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree. Yes, in principle if you just had more money you could buy the better plan, but in practice many people are excluded from the market this way.


And the government's actions have increased that price to get a plan, while also raising the floor for doing nothing (paying them a tax). So it doesn't achieve what it desired.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:32 am

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, there's problems with the word 'free', but "Free markets" refers to unhampered markets, in that you can trade in anything without the government intervening (by tariffs, taxes, and its regulations).

If one person has the ability to purchase something and others don't, how is this free?

There's a difference between a budget constraint (i.e. only have $100 per week to spend) and being prevented from purchasing something (e.g. by government decree). Freedom depends on the latter, not the former. Budget constraints don't act; they can't 'imprison'.


But functionally speaking, being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree. Yes, in principle if you just had more money you could buy the better plan, but in practice many people are excluded from the market this way.


And the government's actions have increased that price to get a plan, while also raising the floor for doing nothing (paying them a tax). So it doesn't achieve what it desired.


Thank you for that irrelevant contribution to the current discussion.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:35 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, there's problems with the word 'free', but "Free markets" refers to unhampered markets, in that you can trade in anything without the government intervening (by tariffs, taxes, and its regulations).

If one person has the ability to purchase something and others don't, how is this free?

There's a difference between a budget constraint (i.e. only have $100 per week to spend) and being prevented from purchasing something (e.g. by government decree). Freedom depends on the latter, not the former. Budget constraints don't act; they can't 'imprison'.


But functionally speaking, being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree. Yes, in principle if you just had more money you could buy the better plan, but in practice many people are excluded from the market this way.


And the government's actions have increased that price to get a plan, while also raising the floor for doing nothing (paying them a tax). So it doesn't achieve what it desired.


Thank you for that irrelevant contribution to the current discussion.


What's irrelevant? The current law raised the price of joining the market for most people, meaning more people are excluded from the market, while also punishing those with taxes for not participating in said market.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:54 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, there's problems with the word 'free', but "Free markets" refers to unhampered markets, in that you can trade in anything without the government intervening (by tariffs, taxes, and its regulations).

If one person has the ability to purchase something and others don't, how is this free?

There's a difference between a budget constraint (i.e. only have $100 per week to spend) and being prevented from purchasing something (e.g. by government decree). Freedom depends on the latter, not the former. Budget constraints don't act; they can't 'imprison'.


But functionally speaking, being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree. Yes, in principle if you just had more money you could buy the better plan, but in practice many people are excluded from the market this way.


You're failing to distinguish between good-good exchange and good-bad exchange.

I'm talking about good-good exchange within the free market. It's the same as me and you in an exchange. If I say, "No, I don't want your acorns in exchange for my computer," then it's not at all similar to the exchanges involving government. You aren't offering me enough acorns for my computer.

The same goes for the insurance agent and the potential client. If the client has a pre-existing condition, then the risk is higher. In order to be compensated for this risk, the insurance agent asks for a price which is higher than people who pose much less risk. If the asking price is too high, then the potential client won't agree to the exchange.

That's voluntary exchange. (I know you mentioned the 'too high a price' argument, but it needs to be clarified). If the health market is similar to the insurance market, then cheaper insurance plans could exist given a relaxation of regulation (you'd get lesser quality services--but at least at a lesser price. Voters don't like the sound of that--even though it would help people, so they support the status quo of monopolized doctor licensing and what not).


Here's coercive (good-bad) exchange. Government says, "gimme your computer in exchange for this many acorns; otherwise, my goons will punish you." (hence good-bad exchange). You're failing to distinguish between the two types of exchange. The insurance company isn't threatening anyone or coercing them.

People confuse constraints imposed by circumstance/nature (e.g. having a pre-existing condition) as some insurance company coercing those people. This is a mistaken perspective because the insurance company in no way acts against the other party's person and because such constraints of nature are given. The insurance company didn't cause that person's pre-existing condition.

Government, however, does coerce the other party by punishing them for not paying taxes or for failing to comply with its decrees. Insurance agents can't send their police agents to coerce you into buying their plan---UNLESS of course they coordinate with government in order to do so (a la ACA).
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:00 am

Oops, I guess the administration actually told a GIANT lie. They actually predicted 93 million people would lose their health insurance due to Obamacare. That's a lot of people who can no longer keep their health insurance if they liked it.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/10/31/forbes-obama-officials-predicted-2010-93-million-would-lose-health-pl#ixzz2jJGbh1b1
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:32 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:You're failing to distinguish between good-good exchange and good-bad exchange.

I'm talking about good-good exchange within the free market. It's the same as me and you in an exchange. If I say, "No, I don't want your acorns in exchange for my computer," then it's not at all similar to the exchanges involving government. You aren't offering me enough acorns for my computer.

The same goes for the insurance agent and the potential client. If the client has a pre-existing condition, then the risk is higher. In order to be compensated for this risk, the insurance agent asks for a price which is higher than people who pose much less risk. If the asking price is too high, then the potential client won't agree to the exchange.

That's voluntary exchange. (I know you mentioned the 'too high a price' argument, but it needs to be clarified). If the health market is similar to the insurance market, then cheaper insurance plans could exist given a relaxation of regulation (you'd get lesser quality services--but at least at a lesser price. Voters don't like the sound of that--even though it would help people, so they support the status quo of monopolized doctor licensing and what not).


Here's coercive (good-bad) exchange. Government says, "gimme your computer in exchange for this many acorns; otherwise, my goons will punish you." (hence good-bad exchange). You're failing to distinguish between the two types of exchange. The insurance company isn't threatening anyone or coercing them.

People confuse constraints imposed by circumstance/nature (e.g. having a pre-existing condition) as some insurance company coercing those people. This is a mistaken perspective because the insurance company in no way acts against the other party's person and because such constraints of nature are given. The insurance company didn't cause that person's pre-existing condition.

Government, however, does coerce the other party by punishing them for not paying taxes or for failing to comply with its decrees. Insurance agents can't send their police agents to coerce you into buying their plan---UNLESS of course they coordinate with government in order to do so (a la ACA).


The bolded part is key here. I am not claming that people are coerced by insurance companies because they are denied coverage when they have a pre-existing condition. Obviously the insurance industry, as in any market, has an incentive to avoid adverse selection. Rather, the important issue is in how we view the status of access to healthcare. If you believe, as I do, that health care is not simply something one purchases on the market but rather a fundamental right, then being fundamentally unable to access healthcare represents a failure of the market. Of course, this may be tautological, because as soon as you say that people deserve access to a service it becomes removed from the realm of the free market. (Still, you'd be hard pressed to argue the case that the health care market is similar to the market for Playstations to begin with.) Nevertheless, it is basically true that without insurance people are unable to participate in the health care market because the prices have been inflated to silly and meaningless numbers that don't really matter as long as you do have insurance. It may be the case that the government is at least partially responsible for that situation as well, but let's take one thing at a time.

Night Strike wrote:What's irrelevant? The current law raised the price of joining the market for most people, meaning more people are excluded from the market, while also punishing those with taxes for not participating in said market.


Not every discussion on the role of the free market in providing health care is an opportunity for you to rail against the ACA.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:21 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:People confuse constraints imposed by circumstance/nature (e.g. having a pre-existing condition) as some insurance company coercing those people. This is a mistaken perspective because the insurance company in no way acts against the other party's person and because such constraints of nature are given. The insurance company didn't cause that person's pre-existing condition.


The bolded part is key here. I am not claming that people are coerced by insurance companies because they are denied coverage when they have a pre-existing condition. Obviously the insurance industry, as in any market, has an incentive to avoid adverse selection. Rather, the important issue is in how we view the status of access to healthcare. If you believe, as I do, that health care is not simply something one purchases on the market but rather a fundamental right, then being fundamentally unable to access healthcare represents a failure of the market. Of course, this may be tautological, because as soon as you say that people deserve access to a service it becomes removed from the realm of the free market. (Still, you'd be hard pressed to argue the case that the health care market is similar to the market for Playstations to begin with.) Nevertheless, it is basically true that without insurance people are unable to participate in the health care market because the prices have been inflated to silly and meaningless numbers that don't really matter as long as you do have insurance. It may be the case that the government is at least partially responsible for that situation as well, but let's take one thing at a time


I don't see how 'market failure' arguments support your initial position: " being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree."

Insurance companies operate within the institution of voluntary exchange.
Government operates within the institution of involuntary exchange.

There's several points that would be fun to address about market failures, government failures, and prices from the above post, but I'd like to clear up the initial discussion before resuming.

(e.g. it's not like insurance companies alone determine the prices of health care. Public policies play a larger role in determining the myriad of prices and markets within the greater market of health care).
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:People confuse constraints imposed by circumstance/nature (e.g. having a pre-existing condition) as some insurance company coercing those people. This is a mistaken perspective because the insurance company in no way acts against the other party's person and because such constraints of nature are given. The insurance company didn't cause that person's pre-existing condition.


The bolded part is key here. I am not claming that people are coerced by insurance companies because they are denied coverage when they have a pre-existing condition. Obviously the insurance industry, as in any market, has an incentive to avoid adverse selection. Rather, the important issue is in how we view the status of access to healthcare. If you believe, as I do, that health care is not simply something one purchases on the market but rather a fundamental right, then being fundamentally unable to access healthcare represents a failure of the market. Of course, this may be tautological, because as soon as you say that people deserve access to a service it becomes removed from the realm of the free market. (Still, you'd be hard pressed to argue the case that the health care market is similar to the market for Playstations to begin with.) Nevertheless, it is basically true that without insurance people are unable to participate in the health care market because the prices have been inflated to silly and meaningless numbers that don't really matter as long as you do have insurance. It may be the case that the government is at least partially responsible for that situation as well, but let's take one thing at a time


I don't see how 'market failure' arguments support your initial position: " being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree."

Insurance companies operate within the institution of voluntary exchange.
Government operates within the institution of involuntary exchange.


It supports my initial position under the assumption that access to health care should not be denied to any individual. If you are an individual that cannot reasonably afford health insurance because of a pre-existing condition, you are either locked out of the health care market or given bills for treatment that are basically impossible to pay. It would be different if there had been some existing health care service for people with pre-existing conditions, but as it stands, without insurance you more or less cannot receive reasonable medical care. That means you are denied the possibility of voluntary exchange, in any reasonable scenario.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:20 pm

Obama's Own Health Secretary Breaks Down, Describes Obamacare as a "Debacle"

    de·ba·cle (noun) - a complete collapse or failure

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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:22 pm

Obama Approval Craters to Lowest Level in History - Tied with Richard Nixon

President Barack Obama’s approval rating has declined to an all-time low as public frustration with Washington and pessimism about the nation’s direction continue to grow, according to a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll. Just 42 percent approve of the president’s job performance, which is down five points from earlier this month.

In addition, the health care law is slightly less popular than it was earlier this month, according to the poll. Thirty-seven percent see it as a good idea, versus 47 percent who see it as a bad idea. That’s down from the 38 percent good idea, 43 percent bad idea in the previous survey.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... to-new-low


Obama's average presidential approval rating now stands at 49%, lower even than the reviled George W. Bush's average of 49.4%, and tied with that of the nearly-impeached Richard Nixon.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presi ... enter.aspx
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:52 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:People confuse constraints imposed by circumstance/nature (e.g. having a pre-existing condition) as some insurance company coercing those people. This is a mistaken perspective because the insurance company in no way acts against the other party's person and because such constraints of nature are given. The insurance company didn't cause that person's pre-existing condition.


The bolded part is key here. I am not claming that people are coerced by insurance companies because they are denied coverage when they have a pre-existing condition. Obviously the insurance industry, as in any market, has an incentive to avoid adverse selection. Rather, the important issue is in how we view the status of access to healthcare. If you believe, as I do, that health care is not simply something one purchases on the market but rather a fundamental right, then being fundamentally unable to access healthcare represents a failure of the market. Of course, this may be tautological, because as soon as you say that people deserve access to a service it becomes removed from the realm of the free market. (Still, you'd be hard pressed to argue the case that the health care market is similar to the market for Playstations to begin with.) Nevertheless, it is basically true that without insurance people are unable to participate in the health care market because the prices have been inflated to silly and meaningless numbers that don't really matter as long as you do have insurance. It may be the case that the government is at least partially responsible for that situation as well, but let's take one thing at a time


I don't see how 'market failure' arguments support your initial position: " being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree."

Insurance companies operate within the institution of voluntary exchange.
Government operates within the institution of involuntary exchange.


It supports my initial position under the assumption that access to health care should not be denied to any individual. If you are an individual that cannot reasonably afford health insurance because of a pre-existing condition, you are either locked out of the health care market or given bills for treatment that are basically impossible to pay. It would be different if there had been some existing health care service for people with pre-existing conditions, but as it stands, without insurance you more or less cannot receive reasonable medical care. That means you are denied the possibility of voluntary exchange, in any reasonable scenario.


In other words,
Mets:
1. access to health care should not be denied to any individual
2. Therefore, being denied for a plan because of a pre-existing condition is very similar to a government decree.

Postulating an optimal outcome has no bearing on the distinction between voluntary and involuntary exchange.

Maybe this is the source of our misunderstanding:

I'm talking about the means of two processes (the market process and the political process), from which similar or different goals and outcomes are attained. The means are the two types of exchange (there's 3 if we include charity).

You're discussing outcomes while stating that the means are still the same (2). The means of exchange--both voluntary and involuntary--still differ, and it isn't necessarily the case that voluntary exchange (with no government intervention) would lead to the today's outcome (by which the means of political capitalism/crony capitalism has caused).
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:43 pm

If one believes that access to health care should never be denied, then there is in fact little meaning to the idea of voluntary exchange in the health care market. To some extent this is already reflected in the current situation we have today: it is the law that people must be treated in emergency rooms. So perhaps the source of our misunderstanding is this: are you prepared to defend a system in which access to health care is completely governed by the principles of voluntary exchange?
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:00 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:If one believes that access to health care should never be denied, then there is in fact little meaning to the idea of voluntary exchange in the health care market. To some extent this is already reflected in the current situation we have today: it is the law that people must be treated in emergency rooms. So perhaps the source of our misunderstanding is this: are you prepared to defend a system in which access to health care is completely governed by the principles of voluntary exchange?


Of course because you'd get larger opportunity sets unconstrained by public policy. Within each opportunity set are services and commodities provided at a wider range of prices (thus qualities) and quantities.

In government's attempts to improve the healthcare market (e.g. by granting license-based monopolies per State for the medical practice), then it prevents lower quality doctors (e.g. medics) from offering services similar to today's doctor in their clinics and hospitals. This policy consequently diminishes people's opportunity sets. Also, this policy allows doctors to more efficiently control their own labor supply, so doctors per State effectively become cartels per State (increased prices, decreased quantity). Therefore, people become stuck with the higher quality, thus higher-priced doctors. In turn, government policy has denied peoples' opportunities by inadvertently denying their potential gains of trade.

To correct this blunder of unintended consequences, government then charges into the next set of unintended consequences, e.g. by handing out subsidies to various groups, or engages in price controls (which further denies more possibilities, since prices increase, quality degrades, quantity decreases---e.g. rent controls). We're seeing this right now with ACA; consider how Medicaid and Medicare exacerbates this issue as well (you still have poor people facing high prices in those markets, whoops--but hey, at least they're dependent on government, which 'coincidentally' secures votes). That's the best you can realistically do with public policy--given such a large scope of central planning (i.e. over 300+ million people--as opposed to people's favorite welfare liberal societies like Finland with its whopping 5.4 million).


"Free markets" won't provide the answer for everything, but instead it's used as a model which can obviously point out the direction toward greater improvement: simply put, greater competition and freer prices lead to expanded opportunity sets, and this all requires less centralization of government (centralization here meaning, greater scope of Federal government over the decision-making capabilities of citizens within their respective States and municipalities).

In other words, if you increase competition (by tearing down clumsy barriers to trade), then you allow for wider ranges in quality (thus price) of insurance and medical care. Therefore, you'll have prices at which people of many different budgets can meet. You may not like the prospect that some people are unwilling to pay for the best doctors (e.g. they don't allocate 90% of their budget toward health care), thus they'll settle for some lower quality doctor, but at least in this system, they get a doctor at an affordable price without lowering the budgets of all others (taxpayers).

This also sets up the demand for mutual aid societies, which are practically crowded out by government welfare spending. With the MASs, you get the benefits of tapping into more local knowledge (better resolves knowledge and incentive problems), thus allowing for the more efficient allocation of resources for charity. You'd get less waste, and on a voluntary basis, which promotes steps toward a more civilized, moral society. Stealing from people through government doesn't set the right example.

In conclusion, if one believes that access to health care should never be denied, then they should fully support more steps toward freer markets, thus stepping away from essentially the barbaric means of the state (theft, coercion, and the continual reinforcement of incompetence and corruption). Upon a closer examination of voluntary trade and free markets, it is obvious that there is in fact much meaning to the idea of voluntary exchange in the health care market.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:40 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:If one believes that access to health care should never be denied


This is far afield from the topic of this sub-thread, but "access to health care" includes giving someone who is having a heart attack an aspirin.

The mere idea of "access to health care" has been irrelevant since the advent of modern medicine 170 years ago.

I believe access to quality health care should never be denied. Which is why I oppose Obamacare's heartless, for-profit system in which the poor are forced into choosing between starving to death or bleeding to death all so that Obama and his corporate sponsors at Aetna, Inc. and UHC, Inc. can line their pockets.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:44 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If one believes that access to health care should never be denied


This is far afield from the topic of this sub-thread, but "access to health care" includes giving someone who is having a heart attack an aspirin.

The simple idea of "access to health care" has been an irrelevant concept since the advent of modern medicine.

I believe access to quality health care should never be denied. Which is why I oppose Obamacare's heartless, for-profit system in which the poor are forced into choosing between starving to death or bleeding to death so that Obama and his corporate sponsors at Aetna, Inc. and UHC, Inc. can line their pockets.


Yeah, pretty much.

inb4 the debate on optimal Aggregate Quantity of health care at the optimal Aggregate Price. With that debate, you can (a) let people in the market and within their civil societies figure it out for themselves, or (b) require that government must 'do something'.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:17 pm

BBS,

Can you give me a few case studies to pictify the free market approach...

Specialists

Testing
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:59 pm

Are you looking for academic articles, books, or documentaries?
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:48 am

Whatever you feel would shed some light on free markets and specialists and testing.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:45 am

Okay, and what do you mean by 'specialists' and 'testing'?
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:07 am

In a free market system, how will new products be approved, or will they not require approval?

Specialists; cost less or morre? More available or less? And what might be the difference in gaining access according to a free market?
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:52 am

Rothbard's Man, Economy, and State
Matt Ridley's The Rational Optimist
Tim Hartford's Adapt

all provide examples of free market economics (theory and case study).

For environment, check out Free Market Environmentalism, v2.



Products get approved by the buyer. If they don't like it before buying or afterward, they don't buy it or they stop buying it. Products get approved by the producer through similar means while planning. Brands and trademarks cheaply provide information on the quality of products to be approved by the buyers. It's not profitable to kill off one's customer base (nor is it good PR) since it tends to scare away other customers, so even given an absence of regulatary bodies (the politicians of which are unsurprisingly funded by the 'regulatees'), you'd have either courts meting out liabilities and you'd have trading associations with their quality standards--to differentiate themselves from the lower quality producers. And you see all this in the real world. Debates on patents and private courts gets more complicated:

Check out
Anarchy and the Law
The Enterprise of Law: Justice without the State
Free Market Fairness
Order without Law

There's arguments about how great regulation is in stopping the Evil Capitalist from Exploiting the poor Workers, but the effect of OSHA has been negligible--it only adds costs with no significant deviation from the previous trend in improvement. This trend toward worker safety was already being carried out by the employers, employees, and consumers (to some degree) before OSHA and other regulations. (It's not profitable to get your skilled workers killed or mangled).
see:

http://healthblog.ncpa.org/regulation/? ... more-29815
(Also highlights the ineffectiveness of regulation in providing opportunities by discriminating against one group in favor of the other. I think they call it "anti-discrimination.")


Specialists... with any expansion in trade, you'll get an expansion in the division of labor, thus more specialists.

Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, C2.
but also...

The division of labor is an outcome of markets within political systems, and conceivably an outcome of markets devoid of political systems--or given some range of various polities. The problem is separating markets from government in order to see the direct effects of markets themselves. This is done by comparing political systems which are more restrictive on markets to political systems that are less restrictive, thus have freer markets.

Boettke. Post-Classical Political Economy (this is a theoretical work which talks about the institutional embeddedness of the polity, markets, and civil society).
Hernando de Soto's The Mystery of Capital (huge case study on government-imposed restrictions on markets and their consequences)


That's enough for now.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:00 pm

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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby john9blue on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:04 pm

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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:15 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course because you'd get larger opportunity sets unconstrained by public policy. Within each opportunity set are services and commodities provided at a wider range of prices (thus qualities) and quantities.


This all sounds nice in theory, but consider what happens in practice. Health care can never be exchanged like other goods for several reasons.

1) People have limited information about medical practice and about how to treat a complicated illness
2) When you are ill, you do not have infinite time to make a decision about what doctor to visit and how to weigh their advice
3) The price of treatment is not immediately evident to the consumer, so the consumer tends to make more expensive choices than they normally would if they acted completely rationally

These all play into the following point:

In government's attempts to improve the healthcare market (e.g. by granting license-based monopolies per State for the medical practice), then it prevents lower quality doctors (e.g. medics) from offering services similar to today's doctor in their clinics and hospitals. This policy consequently diminishes people's opportunity sets. Also, this policy allows doctors to more efficiently control their own labor supply, so doctors per State effectively become cartels per State (increased prices, decreased quantity). Therefore, people become stuck with the higher quality, thus higher-priced doctors. In turn, government policy has denied peoples' opportunities by inadvertently denying their potential gains of trade.


The reason why the license-based monopoly is crucial is because we are not worried about lower quality doctors but doctors who actively seek to take advantage of their patients. Homeopathy is an excellent example of this. We see this consistently today -- board-certified doctors will tell you it's important to receive a vaccination for pertussis, but some others will not (cf. Jenny McCarthy). This results in you making decisions which are bad not only for your health, but for the health of others around you (due to the lack of herd immunity). And of course there's the economic impacts that are likely borne on others when you are forced to receive treatment later on for a serious ailment that could have been prevented. Being treated by a doctor is not like being sold a television -- you're most likely to know what's best for yourself when it comes to buying a television. The same is not true in the case of medical care, which makes the field ripe for misinformation. The monopoly on health care treatment is one of the best things about a modern health care system.

"Free markets" won't provide the answer for everything, but instead it's used as a model which can obviously point out the direction toward greater improvement: simply put, greater competition and freer prices lead to expanded opportunity sets, and this all requires less centralization of government (centralization here meaning, greater scope of Federal government over the decision-making capabilities of citizens within their respective States and municipalities).


The other issue with free markets is that they inevitably exclude those individuals who cannot pay for expensive treatments (i.e. the poor). If one agrees that these people should receive some level of treatment regardless of their ability to afford it, then one cannot defend the free market to begin with (since this necessarily will never reach the ability to treat everyone at a cost which they reasonably can afford).

In other words, if you increase competition (by tearing down clumsy barriers to trade), then you allow for wider ranges in quality (thus price) of insurance and medical care. Therefore, you'll have prices at which people of many different budgets can meet. You may not like the prospect that some people are unwilling to pay for the best doctors (e.g. they don't allocate 90% of their budget toward health care), thus they'll settle for some lower quality doctor, but at least in this system, they get a doctor at an affordable price without lowering the budgets of all others (taxpayers).


The problem with this response, then, is that it ignores people who are really poor. We're not just talking about someone in the lower middle class who will have to choose a mediocre doctor to get treatment; we're talking about the people who can't afford any reasonable standard of medical care while simultaneously paying their other debts. You can't just sit in your middle class (relative) ivory tower and forget about the people for whom getting treatment for their illness, even from the worst doctor, would force them to allocate 90% of their budget toward health care.

In conclusion, if one believes that access to health care should never be denied, then they should fully support more steps toward freer markets, thus stepping away from essentially the barbaric means of the state (theft, coercion, and the continual reinforcement of incompetence and corruption). Upon a closer examination of voluntary trade and free markets, it is obvious that there is in fact much meaning to the idea of voluntary exchange in the health care market.


And what I meant by completely defending voluntary exchange is, you would also have to eradicate all laws requiring doctors to treat patients in emergency situations.
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Re: ObamaCare - Delayed Anyways?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The chart that could save Obamacare

Image

Thoughts?


6 People Enroll in Obamacare

Six people.

That's how many Americans had successfully enrolled in the federal health care exchange by the morning of October 2, according to documents provided to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... ?hpt=hp_t1


The most recent figure the government has released is 248 people. 248 out of 35,000,000 uninsured is the last confirmed figure. (Ender's Game spent $250 million in advertising, roughly the same amount Obamacare spent. If only 6 people bought tickets to Ender's Game on opening day it would be the single most disastrous opening day in the last 100 years of cinema.)

Theoretical Access to Health Care ≠ Access to Health Care
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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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