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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:26 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


African social stagnation and arrested cultural development is also attributable to what, then?
What about India? That caste system isn't very advanced...
Aboriginies? They had 40 000 years, and they never got significantly past tribalism.
Inuit? South American tribes? Native Americans? Yeah.

When you look at closely, it seems like everyone, bar Western civilization, or those influenced by it, has socially stagnated. Yet apparently Islam is the only nation-group ever to socially stagnate. Hell, even your beloved Europe socially stagnated during the Middle Ages. The most useful invention to come out of that entire time period was a slightly superior form of horse collar. Shows just how advanced and progressive Europeans really were.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:43 pm

Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


African social stagnation and arrested cultural development is also attributable to what, then?
What about India? That caste system isn't very advanced...
Aboriginies? They had 40 000 years, and they never got significantly past tribalism.
Inuit? South American tribes? Native Americans? Yeah.

When you look at closely, it seems like everyone, bar Western civilization, or those influenced by it, has socially stagnated. Yet apparently Islam is the only nation-group ever to socially stagnate. Hell, even your beloved Europe socially stagnated during the Middle Ages. The most useful invention to come out of that entire time period was a slightly superior form of horse collar. Shows just how advanced and progressive Europeans really were.


Enjoyable little diatribe. Completely irrelevant, but enjoyable...
Anyways. Tchuss bis Montag lads.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:59 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Enjoyable little diatribe. Completely irrelevant, but enjoyable...


No actually he has a point. Why is the Islam the sole factor in arab social stagnation? You saying it over and over doesn't actually prove it, y'know.
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Postby suggs on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:06 pm

You mean free speech. Yes its a good thing.
Much of what people say, is of course, like this thread- complete gibberish.
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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:42 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


African social stagnation and arrested cultural development is also attributable to what, then?
What about India? That caste system isn't very advanced...
Aboriginies? They had 40 000 years, and they never got significantly past tribalism.
Inuit? South American tribes? Native Americans? Yeah.

When you look at closely, it seems like everyone, bar Western civilization, or those influenced by it, has socially stagnated. Yet apparently Islam is the only nation-group ever to socially stagnate. Hell, even your beloved Europe socially stagnated during the Middle Ages. The most useful invention to come out of that entire time period was a slightly superior form of horse collar. Shows just how advanced and progressive Europeans really were.


Enjoyable little diatribe. Completely irrelevant, but enjoyable...
Anyways. Tchuss bis Montag lads.


Uh huh.
Since you obviously trancend my feeble intelligence, it should take you mere fractions of a second to compose a searing rebuttal which utterly destroys my pathetic arguments, yet is simple enough for one of my obviously inferior intellectual stature to understand.

You have three tenths of a second to respond.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:48 pm

Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


African social stagnation and arrested cultural development is also attributable to what, then?
What about India? That caste system isn't very advanced...
Aboriginies? They had 40 000 years, and they never got significantly past tribalism.
Inuit? South American tribes? Native Americans? Yeah.

When you look at closely, it seems like everyone, bar Western civilization, or those influenced by it, has socially stagnated. Yet apparently Islam is the only nation-group ever to socially stagnate. Hell, even your beloved Europe socially stagnated during the Middle Ages. The most useful invention to come out of that entire time period was a slightly superior form of horse collar. Shows just how advanced and progressive Europeans really were.


Enjoyable little diatribe. Completely irrelevant, but enjoyable...
Anyways. Tchuss bis Montag lads.


Uh huh.
Since you obviously trancend my feeble intelligence, it should take you mere fractions of a second to compose a searing rebuttal which utterly destroys my pathetic arguments, yet is simple enough for one of my obviously inferior intellectual stature to understand.

You have three tenths of a second to respond.


I link middle eastern arrested societal development to Islam.
You then post a series of other stagnated cultures at various points in timespace, and somehow see this as a counter-argument without actually quite going anywhere with the little list you'd drawn up. Yes...well done, other cultures were stagnated. And this had causes. I've posted one particular stagnation and attributed a cause. You seem to think the fact that other cultures also underwent slowed or deformed development somehow dissproved my inference.

Guess what genius :

it doesn't.
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Postby Norse on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:53 pm

It's a hard truth, but without white-men, this world would be a dark-aged, malaria diseased, fairy-preaching Banana-republic.

Much like the utopian ideals of many posters here.
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Postby Iliad on Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:53 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


African social stagnation and arrested cultural development is also attributable to what, then?
What about India? That caste system isn't very advanced...
Aboriginies? They had 40 000 years, and they never got significantly past tribalism.
Inuit? South American tribes? Native Americans? Yeah.

When you look at closely, it seems like everyone, bar Western civilization, or those influenced by it, has socially stagnated. Yet apparently Islam is the only nation-group ever to socially stagnate. Hell, even your beloved Europe socially stagnated during the Middle Ages. The most useful invention to come out of that entire time period was a slightly superior form of horse collar. Shows just how advanced and progressive Europeans really were.


Enjoyable little diatribe. Completely irrelevant, but enjoyable...
Anyways. Tchuss bis Montag lads.


Uh huh.
Since you obviously trancend my feeble intelligence, it should take you mere fractions of a second to compose a searing rebuttal which utterly destroys my pathetic arguments, yet is simple enough for one of my obviously inferior intellectual stature to understand.

You have three tenths of a second to respond.


I link middle eastern arrested societal development to Islam.
You then post a series of other stagnated cultures at various points in timespace, and somehow see this as a counter-argument without actually quite going anywhere with the little list you'd drawn up. Yes...well done, other cultures were stagnated. And this had causes. I've posted one particular stagnation and attributed a cause. You seem to think the fact that other cultures also underwent slowed or deformed development somehow dissproved my inference.

Guess what genius :

it doesn't.

No you thought that the social stagnation was proof of your point about Islam whereas Islam had nothing to do with it
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Postby suggs on Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:25 pm

Napoleon is right, darn it!
Yes, Snorri Islam is VERY MUCH like Europe in the Middle Ages-repressive, backward, driven by war, inspired by hate, squalid, irrational, sexist, xenophobic, bigoted etc, etc.

"They will like us when we win" (Toby Ziegler).
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:27 pm

Norse wrote:It's a hard truth, but without white-men, this world would be a dark-aged, malaria diseased, fairy-preaching Banana-republic.

Much like the utopian ideals of many posters here.


:lol: :lol: :lol: CLASSIC
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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:40 pm

Norse wrote:It's a hard truth, but without white-men, this world would be a dark-aged, malaria diseased, fairy-preaching Banana-republic.

Much like the utopian ideals of many posters here.


Fairy-preaching...? I admit, fairies would make better priests and prophets than humans do...
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Postby unriggable on Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:58 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:I link middle eastern arrested societal development to Islam.


Or the fact that it was in the middle of the European-Asian-African circle. Shitty placement. How developed can a region be when it has to ddeal with the Mongols and Indians to the east, the Christians to the northwest, and the Africans to the southwest?
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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:12 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:
I link middle eastern arrested societal development to Islam.
You then post a series of other stagnated cultures at various points in timespace, and somehow see this as a counter-argument without actually quite going anywhere with the little list you'd drawn up. Yes...well done, other cultures were stagnated. And this had causes. I've posted one particular stagnation and attributed a cause. You seem to think the fact that other cultures also underwent slowed or deformed development somehow dissproved my inference.

Guess what genius :

it doesn't.


It disproved your inference by explaining in quite a simple manner that your inference boiled down to nothing more than "Islam is not Western civilization". Really, your argument is nothing more than that. Myriads of other cultures have stagnated, yet Islam is somehow to blame for failing to be exceptional.
It takes a large number of events, occuring at precisely the right time and in precisely the right order to lift a culture out of stagnation. The Chinese almost did it. They had rounded the Cape of Good Hope using far larger ships, 50 years before the Portugese would consider pulling off the same trick. Yet court politics lead to the fleets being recalled, China turned in on itself, and their massive technological lead was lost. If they had maintained that lead, then there is a good probability at least part of Chinese society would have been able to push itself out of the dark ages.
Islam, as a whole, never got the chance to advance out of Feudalism, yet you blame them specifically for a failure that the vast majority of other cultures also make.

By your own logic you are a vicious bastard, simply because you failed to invent Cold Fusion.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:37 am

Snorri1234 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


Yay for random unsupported claims!


Read the Koran, you will see what he means.
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Postby got tonkaed on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:39 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


Yay for random unsupported claims!


Read the Koran, you will see what he means.


jenos ive been meaning to ask you....how much of the koran have you actually read. I dont mean verses from sources that you may have come across in an already religious setting, i just mean reading of your own volition.

Im not suggesting i dont believe you havent read it, because i believe you probably have read sections, im just curious.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:47 am

Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Quit changing the topic: Prove that Islam doesn't not have over 100 "slay the infidel" verses, Prove Dhirmitude isn't in the Koran, Prove that Muhammad didn't have dissenters off'ed in their sleep (or off'ed anyother time or place). You're refusal to actually argue is begining to give me a magrine headacke! Disprove what is written in the Koran, that's all I ask.


Question: how many times, per week, do you sacrifice and burn a bull on the altar? How many daughters do you have and how many of them have you sold into slavery? Have you ever worked on Sunday? Have you ever eaten shellfish or wear glasses? Ever cut your hair or eaten bacon?

Yeah, I can quote stupid commandments too.

If you don't obey these stupid commandments, what makes you think anyone else will obey those stupid commandments? If Islam endorses the killing of the infidel, then Christianity endorses slavery.


Jeepers, have you even read the New Testament? We aren't required to offer up things to be burnt. To say nothing of you changing the topic yet again.

Since you will not disprove it, you therefore cannot.

Concession accepted.


Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:

The Ottoman invasion of 15th century Romania comes to mind. As does the Indian Mughals, the Caliphates of Egypt and Syria, the Barbary Pirates, the Moors in Spain, Muslim invasions of Sicily and Greece, the massacre of tens of thousands of Armenians by the turks in the 1920's (to say nothing of those slain by muslim hands in Armenia before then). In fact, most wars and acts of ethnic cleansing in the region since the 7th century on to 1948 were the result of Islamic imperialism.

And none of those strike you as being remotely terroristic? I think you like blabbering like a drunken baffoon.


No, they strike me as the normal goings on of Middle Age countries (with the exception of the Armenia one, obviously).


Problem: Motive.

Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
That doesn't entire into it (hence, non-sequiter)! What does is the muslim attitude to the UDHR and why they have that attitude! Period! WHAT PART OF THAT IS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAIND!?!?!?

*taking a minute to take an asprine*

Please come back tomarrow with a real agruement for a change, I'm tried of sorting through lines of idiocy.


The reason they hold that attitude towards the UDHR, O Great Lord Capslock, is their social system


Which comes from where....?

Oh Gee Whiz JR, The Koran!
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Postby Neutrino on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:51 am

*facepalm*

I'm going to go have dinner, then I will explain slowly and clearly what I just explained to Napoleon.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:08 am

got tonkaed wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


Yay for random unsupported claims!


Read the Koran, you will see what he means.


jenos ive been meaning to ask you....how much of the koran have you actually read. I dont mean verses from sources that you may have come across in an already religious setting, i just mean reading of your own volition.

Im not suggesting i dont believe you havent read it, because i believe you probably have read sections, im just curious.


It's been a while, but a good portion of Sura (the nines mostly) is what I readly remember: lots of references to infidels and how a muslim should react to their presence. Can't remember specific verses, 'cept for two that read something like "don't fight in the holy shrine unless they attack you there" and "Slay them where you find them".
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:10 am

Neutrino wrote:*facepalm*

I'm going to go have dinner, then I will explain slowly and clearly what I just explained to Napoleon.


Don't bother, since you can't actually refute anything I've said.

I'll be heading off to sleep now. Cheers.
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Postby Neutrino on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:14 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Jeepers, have you even read the New Testament? We aren't required to offer up things to be burnt. To say nothing of you changing the topic yet again.

Since you will not disprove it, you therefore cannot.

Concession accepted.


Good job, you're a seventh of the way there.
Keep going, soldier!



Jenos Ridan wrote:Problem: Motive.


Well yes, I agree both the Christians' and the Muslims' motives wern't very salubrious or nice. Killing people and taking their land for personal profit very frequently isn't. That's humanity for you.

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Which comes from where....?

Oh Gee Whiz JR, The Koran!


So falling into a pitfall that almost everyone else does is now a despicable act intentionally committed by you?
Phew, I'm glad I didn't have your parents. They must have been the hysterical "Achieve! Achieve!" type, if that's how you think...
If you want a full response, sans personal attacks, scroll a few posts up. You'll notice Napoleon raised the same points as you and has still yet to actually back them up with logical reasoning. Please read the thread before posting and save everyone a little time.
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Postby Guiscard on Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:48 am

Norse wrote:It's a hard truth, but without white-men, this world would be a dark-aged, malaria diseased, fairy-preaching Banana-republic.

Much like the utopian ideals of many posters here.


=D> =D> =D>

No-one said White European culture contributed nothing. Every culture has made significant contributions to the state of the world today, both good and bad. You seem very insecure about the whole thing.
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Postby heavycola on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:34 am

Norse wrote:It's a hard truth, but without white-men, this world would be a dark-aged, malaria diseased, fairy-preaching Banana-republic.

Much like the utopian ideals of many posters here.


Accidents of geography and environment brought about the domination of European whites, not racial differences.
Put simply, we had more animal species to domesticate, more native crops, and a dense population (as a result) that bred immunities to diseases by living in close proximity to each other and to our livestock.
It was luck.
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Postby heavycola on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:41 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Quit changing the topic: Prove that Islam doesn't not have over 100 "slay the infidel" verses, Prove Dhirmitude isn't in the Koran, Prove that Muhammad didn't have dissenters off'ed in their sleep (or off'ed anyother time or place). You're refusal to actually argue is begining to give me a magrine headacke! Disprove what is written in the Koran, that's all I ask.


Question: how many times, per week, do you sacrifice and burn a bull on the altar? How many daughters do you have and how many of them have you sold into slavery? Have you ever worked on Sunday? Have you ever eaten shellfish or wear glasses? Ever cut your hair or eaten bacon?

Yeah, I can quote stupid commandments too.

If you don't obey these stupid commandments, what makes you think anyone else will obey those stupid commandments? If Islam endorses the killing of the infidel, then Christianity endorses slavery.


Jeepers, have you even read the New Testament? We aren't required to offer up things to be burnt. To say nothing of you changing the topic yet again.

Since you will not disprove it, you therefore cannot.

Concession accepted.


I think the point here is that when anyone brings up the awful brutality of the OT - the god-sanctioned rape, pillage, slaughter, incest ect etc, you use your own understanding of xian theology to explain it away - yet you, a non-muslim, have no qaulms about dismissing another religion on the same grounds.

I have no love for xianity of islam, at all, but i do know a few muslims in London and they are not violent people, nor do they hold violent beliefs, as far as i know. Two are successful and well-regarded teachers.
Perhaps they rationalise the apparent discrepancies in their faith the same way you do? If you gave someone the OT tp read by itself, i don't feel god would coem across as a benevolent, loving being, do you?
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Postby Snorri1234 on Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:34 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Arab social stagnation and arrested cultural development is directly attributable to Islamic principles.


Yay for random unsupported claims!


Read the Koran, you will see what he means.


Oh I fully see what he means, he's just not offering any proof or explanation for it.
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Postby Norse on Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:28 am

heavycola wrote:
Accidents of geography and environment brought about the domination of European whites, not racial differences.
Put simply, we had more animal species to domesticate, more native crops, and a dense population (as a result) that bred immunities to diseases by living in close proximity to each other and to our livestock.
It was luck.


I have a distinct feeling of deja-vu here.

Anyhow, I will continue.

The siole reason for the domination, advanced thinking, hard working in built mentality of the north european peoples, was due to the hardships that were faced during their expansion into the north of europe.#

It is laughable that you have this idea that the cold, biting tundra of northern europe somehow had "more animals to domesticate"...as opposed to the warmer climates of africa, for instance.

What you fail to comprehend, is that there were no native crops in northern europe....corn was originally an unpalatable crop from the asian peninsula...this had been nurtured by the northern europeans into being an edible crop, to which we built a tolerance for, as with cows milk, too.

See, the reason why the white race has a higher level of industrious thought, is that the long baron winters, and lack of native wildlife readily available, caused said peoples to have to develop a strong sense of community, and also overcome far greater challenges, than, say africans, who had walking meals on their doorsteps, for whenever they could be assed to throw a spear.

This is one of the reasons why there is wide-famine issues within africa, as they just ate, and ate without any foresight for future production. They have not got the in-built tools to cope with forward thinking, or overcoming challenges...It's pretty simple Cola, white people had challenges = bigger brains.

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