WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[cairnswk]

sorry mate but gameplay is still very confused
did you remove the distinction between Russian and German troops

Yes it was removed. as it_oddball pointed out, made no sense,

actual attack conditions

• aircrafts attack bomb marked territories
  snippers attack any city territory
  artillery attack any artillery & infantry
  tanks attack adjacent tanks & infantry
  infantry attack adjacent artillery, infantry and tanks
  their is a lot of problems with this gameplay
  
  who can attack airplanes specially German ones it shouldn't be non attackable territories
  • (Das Schloss gameplay revamp is blocked for almost a year now due to this problem)

I've fixed that so that planes can attack other planes.

same who can attack snipers

well, if you read the legend it says

Underground fighting: @ Snipers via intake marked ▀ can assault other city territories

therefore those intake terts must be able to attack the snipers. For the sniper tert lower left, Station No 2 and Grain Silo would be able to attack the snipers, the same way that the sniper got in place.

entering a tank territory is a dead end as you can't attack adjacent infantry

Huh! Tanks can attack other tanks and infantry.

same for artillery

Oh dear Artillery can attack & be attacked by other artillery and infantry.

my suggestion

• 1 aircrafts bombard tanks
  2 artillery bombard artillery and infantry
  3 snipers bombard any city position
  4 infantry and tanks attack any adjacent infantry, snipers, tanks, artillery and aircrafts

1 as aircrafts where the only power able to break a tank unit like stukas and get rid of the bombs

• an other possibility is to transform bomb in parachutes so you can keep your regular attack route

[/list]

my preference with regard to what others have to say and my error of leavng something out:
1. the aircraft can only drop bombs and be attacked by aircraft.
2. legend now has bombard section
3. Done
4. All but aircraft.

2 please artillery can bombard but not attack troops

done.

3 the same some single snippers can not take control of an entire unit but they were able to block them

• put them directly in the map as you need to control some building around to be able to put them on the top of a building
  maybe as your drawing is suggesting across territory border

Mmmmm. Good idea, but not a lot of room to squeeze those snipper positions on buildings in there. It'll be a challenge.

4 create 1 new German position as HQ connecting to German aircrafts

might be good idea. i'll see.

With this, aircrafts, artillery and snipers are dead ends (20 positions)
but can bombard any position on the map
the rest of the board is a normal gameplay

now changed, so no longer dead ends.

Thanks pamoa

[cairnswk]

Nice draft cairnswk!

Honestly i'm not a big fan of the old red&blue graphic, this one is really more appealing.
I like that your maps could be a bit more easy to play. Sometimes is a bit irritating to spend 15 minutes to understand how a map works.
Simply don't make tricky maps your "trademark" (i know that some people loves this type of maps and this one is only my persoanl opinion, so don't accuse me of heresy ), you are able to do wonderful maps with a more classic style (example: carins coral coast).

Yeh, this works for me a bit better also.

Planes confused me too....who attack them?

planes now.

Same thing about sniper, maybe they are attacked by adjacent territories?

yes, by their same intake terts.

About armour/artillery , i don't think they are dead ends....they can attack infantry. But i'd like too that artillery could only bombard (seems more reasonable)

Done.

DTF & BTF are really impossible to read in the small version.

yes i'll try to do something better with them.

The brown zone between gorodische and orlovka don't have a bonus? (nothing bad about it, only to understand)

Fixed.

[quoteOn the whole,as said the new version did a good improvement....on the right direction. [/quote]Good, thanks thenobodies80

[cairnswk]

Version 11.

Click image to enlarge.

[captainwalrus]

I like this but it is confusing. What can the armour in the 100th Div. attack?

[cairnswk]

I like this but it is confusing. What can the armour in the 100th Div. attack?

Armour plus other infantry. It's all in the legend.

[pamoa]

sorry about the legend but its really unclear as the infantry square is not an icon one tend to ignore it (me in this case )
in the same way there is now a very unclear situation with your army numbers inside infantry box and outside tanks, artillery, ... by example in AA2 is there 2 infantry and one artillery?
you should take a drastic decision either use symbols with army numbers inside or icons with numbers on the side (always the same)
btw can't you use the actual CC army numbers as they are more sharp than the arial font you are using

gameplay is getting clearer
your bombardment scheme means tanks are protected and territs like btf are under heavy bombing (airplanes, artillery and snipper)
almost impossible to stay which gives the right feeling about what it was
rename city territ as city hall or something else so in the bombardments legend you can say "sniper>all city" without infantry symbol which may be confusing
I like the airplanes fighting each other but I still think you need an upper side attack route to airplane (German HQ)
about you sniper legend for me it means you can attack sniper via intakes and then bombard but there is nothing saying that from sniper you can attack intakes
I think this is a remain of the underground idea it is better to choose to either move from it in the way I suggested or stick only to the underground fighting idea without sniper

[cairnswk]

Version 12.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

sorry about the legend....

pamoa, i've had a look at your comments and will answer them soon. Thanks.

[dolomite13]

This reminds me of the Old Avalon Hill & SPI board games I played so many years ago.

A few observations.
- The criss-cross of r05-r06 and r03-ro4 could be confusing unless they are a 4 way connection.
- There is quite a mix of fonts and the territory names are quite bright, almost to the point of distraction.
- I am not sure planes should be able to assault anything, thety really can't conquer, perhaps planes bombarding planes would simulate dogfights better.
- The plane icons in the top of the map don't match those on the map, this could be confusing if they are both considered the same for bombardment and assaults.
- Your icons could use some graphic work and your city buildings look awfully generic but that's just a graphic nitpick.

A Few questions.
- Are Sniper scopes their own territories? and if so what do they border? for instance does S@ border Rynok North Fields and Rynok?
- Why do the infantry along the river suffer decay did this happen historically due to sewage and sickness or is this just a way to force reinforcements on the river territories?

I like this map great work thus far =)

--D

[captainwalrus]

I like this but it is confusing. What can the armour in the 100th Div. attack?

Armour plus other infantry. It's all in the legend.

All of them, or only ones in bordering territories?

[whitestazn88]

hey cairns, i'm here for the preliminary review.

i checked this one out a bit ago and made some comments, glad that they've been addressed, that clears up a lot for me.

as some people have stated, the attack routes at this point are confusing, but i disagree, and i know that if you actually take some time to look at the legend and check out the map, gameplay will be sorted out and things make sense, so keep it how it is now

i like that the graphics have improved in terms of color, and everything is very distinct

keep up the good work, and i say move this to the main foundry

[cairnswk]

I like this but it is confusing. What can the armour in the 100th Div. attack?

Armour plus other infantry. It's all in the legend.

All of them, or only ones in bordering territories?

Only bordering ones or in the same territory.

[cairnswk]

Version 13.

Click image to enlarge.

[neanderpaul14]

Hey Cairns I was just thinking back to when this was first suggested. Do you remember Incandenza promised to hire the most expensive prostitute in Australia for you if you made this map?? Just wondering if you remembered.

[Echospree]

For the latest update:

All units types are extremely difficult to see, especially the tanks, especially especially the tanks in the panzer division.

The only way to take control of a luftwaffe aircraft is to control the German HQ?

The fact the luftwaffe and STT aircraft play differently is mildly confusing. One is on the board, the other is completely off of the board.

Can any aircraft attack any bomb site?

The aircraft cannot attack each other, right?

[lt_oddball]

Development goes fast on this map...
A lot to swallow.
Thanks for picking up on some suggestions... we'll work on the other ones


1) You'll have a difficult task to write the xml if many terr.locations are supposed to be able to bombard EVERY corner of the map
(each plane may attack ALL planes and ALL bomb areas...each sniper may bombard ALL infantry...each artillery may bombard ALL inf and arty).

I don't think a map is nice if you can be attacked by any other player from any other location from beginning to end of the game.
(..kind of Zjoekovs order" the german must have the unpleasant feeling that a gun is pointed at him all the time "..brrrr).

1a) So either limit the range of each bombardment attacking territory which means working with colours or marking letters (sniper "blue" can only attack infantry "blue" etc..plane "5" can only attack tanks marked "5"). That clutters the map even more. Very crowdy..

1b) or limit the number of snipers, artillery and planes (and why not anti-aircraft too?) on the map by a handfull. Then it becomes a "general investment buffer" controlled from a local HQ (a couple of Hq) on the map.
Access to the (at start neutral) sniper force, or artillery force or Air-force is from the (or one of the) HQ which you can conquer from a location on the map (best in the back far from other bonus zone).
It represents the choice/balance you have to make; put resources in massive infantry to conquer the map (incentive: bonus areas), or put resources in special forces (the sniper department, or the artillery department, or airforce, or Anti Air) so to be able to OBSTRUCT the opponent without actually gaining ground (and thus bonus).

That way you can place these general (so no different "german" or "soviet" special forces departments anywhere on the map .
Instead of an airforce per sé, it represents an "airsuperiority" (likewise an artillery superiority, sniper superiority, etc..).
(see "eastern hemisphere map")

Let's say on the west bank side 3 "german" HQ's all together having access to in total 3 out of 3 planes, only 1 (!) out of 3 snipers and 3 out of 4 artillery (and 2 out of 2 flak)
and on the east bank side 2 "soviet" HQ both having access to only 1 out of the SAME 3 planes, 3 out of the SAME 3 snipers and 4 out of the SAME 4 artillery (and 1 out of 2 flak).
(so to resemble the differences in capability of the respective forces in those days.. more/better soviet snipers than the germans, more/better german planes than the soviet, more/better soviet artillery than the german..etc..).
So technically the players struggle for air/artillery/sniper/flak- superiority via their HQ's on the map (but not to the maximum if that was historically the case).
cool

each plane marker can bombard ANY bombs marked target (the tanks and a selection of infantry and artillery terr. here and there) and any other plane.
(so bombard the other plane..not attack/take over).
each sniper can snipe bombard any infantry in the stalingrad city (grey) area.
each artillery can bombard any infantry (so not tank) or artillery anywhere on the map (so no need for separate bombs icon to distinguish from the airplane attack).
(and why not: each flak can bombard any plane ).


(much better concept than the strange "intake" areas separated /inbetween the other infantry areas.. ).

[lt_oddball]

2) I still don't think the auto-decay thing is going to work in fairness.
But we can move that discussion to later.


3) it is strange to see that a tank cannot attack the artillery position directly, but that it should attack the infantry next to it first...
If so, I'd opted for the other way around..

4) It looks like all the terr. on the map are part of a bonuszone (with panzers div. +9 COME ON !?!? ).
You don't have to do that , you know. You can keep a few of the non-interesting areas "bonus-less", no-mans' land.
Maybe it can create this effect: one player A sticks to his only bonuszone with all his troops in zone A, in zone B behind it is your adversary B bugging you with his artillery/HQ turn after turn...you have no way of directly attacking player B because player A would block your path and you would have to bring in lots of troops to kill player A, and that is too costly....but now with a number of no-man's land terr. you can attack these periphery terr. and attack player B directly.
Think of it.
Just stick to the historical important locations for bonuses, and a couple (so not all !) of the divisions to create a "whole " division/organised bonus.
Find out which were the crack/elite divisions in 42 and 43 and select only those for a divisional bonus.

5) I miss the armor corridor feature... the two panzer collectives are still a zig-zag heap of terr.
Here's an idea to show that the sides of the 2nd till one before last panzer cannot be attacked from the side:
a) Dust clouds
b) track prints
(anti-tank dragon teeth would not be right..as the panzer should be able to attack to its side..)
..whoops, i realise now: so it needs one direction arrows coming out of the clouds/track prints...
Another brilliant idea: instead of an arrow: sticking out of the dust cloud; a gunbarrel (for the arrow arm) and a gun/muzzle flash (for the arrow head)..COOL


(i believe the first "panzers" in summer 1942 reaching (!) stalingrad were things like sdkfz 232, sdkfz 222, halftracks and the occasional pnz II or t38.
Already then the commanders realised it was not bright to have the pnzIII or IV enter the city straight away..).
The few stug III and Pnz III came later autumn 42 to attempt to enforce its way in the city rubble (without success)...so again these map "tanks"should not be overweighed)..

[cairnswk]

Hey Cairns I was just thinking back to when this was first suggested. Do you remember Incandenza promised to hire the most expensive prostitute in Australia for you if you made this map?? Just wondering if you remembered.

LOL! yes i remember. but i won't hold him to that. I'd prefer he simply commented to assist the development.

[cairnswk]

...
All units types are extremely difficult to see, especially the tanks, especially especially the tanks in the panzer division.

yes those colours will have to change.

The only way to take control of a luftwaffe aircraft is to control the German HQ?

at present yes.

The fact the luftwaffe and STT aircraft play differently is mildly confusing. One is on the board, the other is completely off of the board.

The luftwaffe is on the board just not part of what you might conceive as the map area.
Perhap I need to alter the legend borders there.

Can any aircraft attack any bomb site?

Attack no, Bombard yes. Do you want it so they can attack the marked bomb areas? This would be akin to parachutes dropping on the bomb marked terts.

The aircraft cannot attack each other, right?

at present, do you want it differently?

[cairnswk]

Version 14.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

Development goes fast on this map...
A lot to swallow.
Thanks for picking up on some suggestions... we'll work on the other ones

Pleasure...we'll see what other you have to offer.

1) You'll have a difficult task to write the xml if many terr.locations are supposed to be able to bombard EVERY corner of the map
(each plane may attack ALL planes and ALL bomb areas...each sniper may bombard ALL infantry...each artillery may bombard ALL inf and arty).

I don't think a map is nice if you can be attacked by any other player from any other location from beginning to end of the game.
(..kind of Zjoekovs order" the german must have the unpleasant feeling that a gun is pointed at him all the time "..brrrr).

1a) So either limit the range of each bombardment attacking territory which means working with colours or marking letters (sniper "blue" can only attack infantry "blue" etc..plane "5" can only attack tanks marked "5"). That clutters the map even more. Very crowdy..

1b) or limit the number of snipers, artillery and planes (and why not anti-aircraft too?) on the map by a handfull. Then it becomes a "general investment buffer" controlled from a local HQ (a couple of Hq) on the map.
Access to the (at start neutral) sniper force, or artillery force or Air-force is from the (or one of the) HQ which you can conquer from a location on the map (best in the back far from other bonus zone).
It represents the choice/balance you have to make; put resources in massive infantry to conquer the map (incentive: bonus areas), or put resources in special forces (the sniper department, or the artillery department, or airforce, or Anti Air) so to be able to OBSTRUCT the opponent without actually gaining ground (and thus bonus).

That way you can place these general (so no different "german" or "soviet" special forces departments anywhere on the map .
Instead of an airforce per sé, it represents an "airsuperiority" (likewise an artillery superiority, sniper superiority, etc..).
(see "eastern hemisphere map")

Let's say on the west bank side 3 "german" HQ's all together having access to in total 3 out of 3 planes, only 1 (!) out of 3 snipers and 3 out of 4 artillery (and 2 out of 2 flak)
and on the east bank side 2 "soviet" HQ both having access to only 1 out of the SAME 3 planes, 3 out of the SAME 3 snipers and 4 out of the SAME 4 artillery (and 1 out of 2 flak).
(so to resemble the differences in capability of the respective forces in those days.. more/better soviet snipers than the germans, more/better german planes than the soviet, more/better soviet artillery than the german..etc..).
So technically the players struggle for air/artillery/sniper/flak- superiority via their HQ's on the map (but not to the maximum if that was historically the case).
cool

each plane marker can bombard ANY bombs marked target (the tanks and a selection of infantry and artillery terr. here and there) and any other plane.
(so bombard the other plane..not attack/take over).
each sniper can snipe bombard any infantry in the stalingrad city (grey) area.
each artillery can bombard any infantry (so not tank) or artillery anywhere on the map (so no need for separate bombs icon to distinguish from the airplane attack).
(and why not: each flak can bombard any plane ).


(much better concept than the strange "intake" areas separated /inbetween the other infantry areas.. ).

I made some adjustments to the current V14, so see if those are in line with what you were discussing.

[cairnswk]

2) I still don't think the auto-decay thing is going to work in fairness.
But we can move that discussion to later.

Auto-decay removed...bring it up later if you wish.

3) it is strange to see that a tank cannot attack the artillery position directly, but that it should attack the infantry next to it first...
If so, I'd opted for the other way around..

OK so do you want that back on. I think someone suggested it that way.

4) It looks like all the terr. on the map are part of a bonuszone (with panzers div. +9 COME ON !?!? ).
You don't have to do that , you know. You can keep a few of the non-interesting areas "bonus-less", no-mans' land.
Maybe it can create this effect: one player A sticks to his only bonuszone with all his troops in zone A, in zone B behind it is your adversary B bugging you with his artillery/HQ turn after turn...you have no way of directly attacking player B because player A would block your path and you would have to bring in lots of troops to kill player A, and that is too costly....but now with a number of no-man's land terr. you can attack these periphery terr. and attack player B directly.
Think of it.
Just stick to the historical important locations for bonuses, and a couple (so not all !) of the divisions to create a "whole " division/organised bonus.
Find out which were the crack/elite divisions in 42 and 43 and select only those for a divisional bonus.

5) I miss the armor corridor feature... the two panzer collectives are still a zig-zag heap of terr.
Here's an idea to show that the sides of the 2nd till one before last panzer cannot be attacked from the side:
a) Dust clouds
b) track prints
(anti-tank dragon teeth would not be right..as the panzer should be able to attack to its side..)
..whoops, i realise now: so it needs one direction arrows coming out of the clouds/track prints...
Another brilliant idea: instead of an arrow: sticking out of the dust cloud; a gunbarrel (for the arrow arm) and a gun/muzzle flash (for the arrow head)..COOL


(i believe the first "panzers" in summer 1942 reaching (!) stalingrad were things like sdkfz 232, sdkfz 222, halftracks and the occasional pnz II or t38.
Already then the commanders realised it was not bright to have the pnzIII or IV enter the city straight away..).
The few stug III and Pnz III came later autumn 42 to attempt to enforce its way in the city rubble (without success)...so again these map "tanks"should not be overweighed)..

let's see if anyone has anything else to offer on this. Seems as though everyone in the northern hemisphere is on holidays at the mo, so there isn't much feedback happening.

[pikkio]

excuse me if i will say something that you have jet decided about, but i can't read all the discussion..

really cool and original looking map! nothing to say with a so original graphic style. very good icons and details, maybe you can improve the buildings making them more realistic (like the trees and the fences).

i don't like the legend with the underground info, it's very caotic and looks bad. it's not much clear to read and onestly i can't understand how it works...

[cairnswk]

Version 14.

Click image to enlarge.

[barterer2002]

You have 2 terts labeled S4

On the bombardments, a question for you. Lets take the artillery for an example. According to the legend artillery can bombard terts with artillery and infantry on it or is it artillery OR infantry. In other words, could Chulkov Artillery bombard Yeremenko Artillery or is it limited to bombarding AA1 and AA2 and if that is the case can AA1 and AA2 only bombard each other?

In terms of the underground fighting, do the buildings all border two territories. I thought they were each in 1 specific tert until I saw the one straddling the Refineries and the Chemical Plant which clearly can be used from either side there. Is there a way to make the other building clearer that they are either in one tert or straddling two?

The T in DTF isn't visible at the moment.