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Postby muy_thaiguy on Tue May 22, 2007 2:54 pm

Humous wrote:You actually owe an awful lot more to france than most probably realise.
But then again, the War did kind of bakrupt Necker and Louis the XVI, so you did actually, if only indirectly, contribute to the glorious missed oppurtunity that was the French Revolution.
In fact, most people owe alot to France...
This should be a new topic.
Maybe.
Nah.

Paid France back in WWI and WWII. What do we get for kicking the Nazis out? A bunch of back stabbing. [-X As for the start of this whole fiasco, what HAVEN'T we given?
Last edited by muy_thaiguy on Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guiscard on Tue May 22, 2007 3:26 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:As for the start of this whole fiasco, what HAVEN'T we given?


Safety. Global unity. Morality. Good food.
qwert wrote:Can i ask you something?What is porpose for you to open these Political topic in ConquerClub? Why you mix politic with Risk? Why you not open topic like HOT AND SEXY,or something like that.
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Postby Dmunster on Tue May 22, 2007 3:59 pm

Why do you all hate America? :(
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Postby Guiscard on Tue May 22, 2007 4:40 pm

Dmunster wrote:Why do you all hate America? :(


Now that's a question this thread hasn't dealt with yet... good chap!
qwert wrote:Can i ask you something?What is porpose for you to open these Political topic in ConquerClub? Why you mix politic with Risk? Why you not open topic like HOT AND SEXY,or something like that.
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Postby SKETRS on Tue May 22, 2007 5:57 pm

Their Jealous!!!!!!!!!!!
They're here for YOU!
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue May 22, 2007 6:21 pm

Lord Canti wrote:autoload:[/b]
I responded to yours because you didn't use profanity in your insult (like everyone else) and I respect that. Also, youre claims are the most unfounded. Are Americans responsible for what thier ancestors did to the Native Americans? No, one, beacause the vast majority have ancestors that immagrated to this country after the our disgraceful theft of Native American land and ,two, the fact that someone's great great grandfather slaughtered an Indian in order to take his property, does not in turn make that person a thief and as murderer.

Where in America do you study that you gain such a negative perception of the whole country? You can not judge the behavior of billions of Americans by your interaction with a few thousand.

I am glad that your aspiration is to be a tech specialist for a US telecommunication corporation. If you have the choice on where to live in America come to the great state of Illinois. And, my friend, K-mart does not sell XXXL sizes...at least not the branch of the store I work at.

My best wishes to you and your family


EDIT-

Or in my case, only one branch. Tranced my lineage back to Paul Revere on Granddad's side, but four-five generations back on grandma's side, german and polish immigrants. And of further interest, we have family friends who are Native Amerians (and they really don't give a damn if you called them 'Indians').

Too late, man. He has made up his mind before starting this thread.
Last edited by Jenos Ridan on Wed May 23, 2007 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue May 22, 2007 6:29 pm

Humous wrote:You actually owe an awful lot more to france than most probably realise.
But then again, the War did kind of bakrupt Necker and Louis the XVI, so you did actually, if only indirectly, contribute to the glorious missed oppurtunity that was the French Revolution.
In fact, most people owe alot to France...
This should be a new topic.
Maybe.
Nah.


True, the siege at Yorktown might well have lasted longer. But even then, the war was largely over by then. Then again, if the Brittish Government at the time wasn't a bunch of pomposs, wig-wearing opiate addicts and if the colonial policy didn't treat us like scum, maybe we wouldn't be so different. Perhaps, part of the Commonwealth like Austraila and Canada? If so, then we Americans wouldn't be so differant. Royal American Air Force and Royal United States Marine Corps, anyone?
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue May 22, 2007 6:32 pm

Guiscard wrote:
Dmunster wrote:Why do you all hate America? :(


Now that's a question this thread hasn't dealt with yet... good chap!


Yeah, I want to hear the answer too.
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Postby muy_thaiguy on Tue May 22, 2007 8:38 pm

[quote="Guiscard"][quote="muy_thaiguy"]As for the start of this whole fiasco, what HAVEN'T we given?[/quote]

Safety. Global unity. Morality. Good food.[/quote]Safety? More spcificity would be nice. Gobal Unity? 2 words, British Empire. Morality? I really don't want to turn this into a Politics discussion so I'll skip over this one. Good Food? We invented McDonalds, Burger King, and God knows how many more resturaunts. Oh, heathy foods? Try introducing Europe to bananas, corn, squash, and to much more to list. :roll:
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue May 22, 2007 9:09 pm

Jenos Ridan wrote:Then again, if the Brittish Government at the time wasn't a bunch of pomposs, wig-wearing opiate addicts and if the colonial policy didn't treat us like scum, maybe we wouldn't be so different.


out of curiosity...i would like to explain this claim. It is the popular one in american schools, but at the same time, it seems rather contrary to the pretty decent position that the colonists did hold. Either way, id like to hear your rationale.
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Postby Calidus on Tue May 22, 2007 10:01 pm

got tonkaed wrote:out of curiosity...i would like to explain this claim. It is the popular one in american schools, but at the same time, it seems rather contrary to the pretty decent position that the colonists did hold. Either way, id like to hear your rationale.


By "pretty decent" I assume you mean "pissed off enough to overthrow a government". Of course some colonists were all right with the British, but clearly enough to successfully throw off the yoke weren't.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue May 22, 2007 10:07 pm

well i just wonder whether or not we dont really question some of the motives of the revolution.

Certainly two easy points to discuss....1) Taxation....obviously everyone knows the americans were taxed...but they werent taxed nearly as heavily as the mother country (the heaviest taxed nation of the timeperiod) and were not taxed substantially more than the other colonies.

2) Representation...of course many assume that had Britain simply given the American elite a voice in parliment things could have possibly been averted. However, and perhaps someone who is more familiar with the British parlimentary system could back me up...doesnt the parliment (or didnt it then) change with every vote of no confidence? Since this could happen at basically any moment, wouldnt it be logistically impossible to grant representation to an overseas colony? Certainly they would never be able to have a voice.

so since these are the most commonly cited examples, isnt it a bit silly that we just assume the Americans were being routhlessly oppressed and that Britain was some kind of bad guy?
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Postby Iz Man on Tue May 22, 2007 11:24 pm

got tonkaed wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:Then again, if the Brittish Government at the time wasn't a bunch of pomposs, wig-wearing opiate addicts and if the colonial policy didn't treat us like scum, maybe we wouldn't be so different.


out of curiosity...i would like to explain this claim. It is the popular one in american schools, but at the same time, it seems rather contrary to the pretty decent position that the colonists did hold. Either way, id like to hear your rationale.


Ha, you want to know?
Read this, it outlines it all in detail:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue May 22, 2007 11:34 pm

if you really think that finishes an intellectual discussion of the revolutionary period in America...then i would at best have to consider you misguided. Ideas and sources...that everyone here hasnt read would probably serve us just a little bit better...but i would submit this is as good as start as any as to why a minority of landowners who had vested interest in opening up american commerce further might want to rebel against the mercantilist policies of Britain.
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Postby Avron on Wed May 23, 2007 12:28 am

Psshhhh, Well its a hell of allot better then what you said, if you think its just a start why don't you add more to it. GG dude, that was a great comeback Iz Man.
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Postby Iz Man on Wed May 23, 2007 8:15 am

Avron wrote:Psshhhh, Well its a hell of allot better then what you said, if you think its just a start why don't you add more to it. GG dude, that was a great comeback Iz Man.


Thank you. Hopefully more people will read the entire declaration.

got tonkaed wrote:if you really think that finishes an intellectual discussion of the revolutionary period in America...then i would at best have to consider you misguided. Ideas and sources...that everyone here hasnt read would probably serve us just a little bit better.


Does it finish it? Maybe, maybe not. I'll tell you what it does do; it summarizes why Americans wanted (and got, mind you) independence from G.B.; and as for your "misguided" reference, it seems you're the one who is misguided judging from this next statement:

got tonkaed wrote:..but i would submit this is as good as start as any as to why a minority of landowners who had vested interest in opening up american commerce further might want to rebel against the mercantilist policies of Britain.


Is this what they teach you in your schools?
So it was a minority of landowners who were responsible for the revolution? Not a majority of colonists?
I would put forth that a small minority of the colonial population were what you would classify as "landowners" (obviously the evil rich people). Therefore, it surely was a great accomplishment that a minority of the landowner minority was able to incite, nurture, and ultimately fulfill such an off-the-wall concept as a revolution. :roll:

Obviously you have not read the entire Declaration. Here's a few bullet points for you to chew on. Oh, and the "He" that Jefferson et all were referring to was King George III.
Take your time.......

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offenses:


Obviously just the rantings of greedy, money grubbing rich landowners. Probably decendents of the Walton family, no doubt...
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Postby Guiscard on Wed May 23, 2007 8:21 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Safety? More spcificity would be nice. Gobal Unity? 2 words, British Empire. Morality? I really don't want to turn this into a Politics discussion so I'll skip over this one. Good Food? We invented McDonalds, Burger King, and God knows how many more resturaunts. Oh, heathy foods? Try introducing Europe to bananas, corn, squash, and to much more to list. :roll:


I'll ignore the ridiculous spelling and punctuation, but:

Safety - The terrorist bombings in London were perpetrated with the express aim of getting our troops out of Iraq. If we were not in Iraq and were not forced to support aggressive American imperialism we, in the UK, would be a hell of a lot safer. Even suggestions given by the British military, e.g. keeping the structures of the police and military within Iraq to allow a more structured and safer handover of power, were ignored in favour of American power-play policies which have done a hell of a lot to help the insurgents by providing inadequate and corrupt policing.

Global Unity - What has the British Empire got to do with anything? To many, the world is now USA vs Islam. That's a horrid state of affairs. US foreign policy sine 9/11 has done more to create a polarised global society, and more to create worldwide division and conflict than anything.

Morality - Going to war to spread democratic values and peaceful self-government? Pull the other one. Foreign Policy is always selfish.

Good Food - If you consider McDonalds or Burger King to be the height of cuisine then I seriously suggest you travel a little. Basically every other country in the world has contributed more to global cuisine than the US. I'll give you Soul Food, which I enjoyed immensely when I visited Harlem last year, but other than that you have either greasy, fatty shit or food invented by other cultures (Italian, Chinese etc. etc.) How many McDonalds or Burger Kinds have Michelin stars?[/quote]
qwert wrote:Can i ask you something?What is porpose for you to open these Political topic in ConquerClub? Why you mix politic with Risk? Why you not open topic like HOT AND SEXY,or something like that.
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Postby Iz Man on Wed May 23, 2007 8:24 am

Guiscard wrote:Safety - The terrorist bombings in London were perpetrated with the express aim of getting our troops out of Iraq. If we were not in Iraq and were not forced to support aggressive American imperialism we, in the UK, would be a hell of a lot safer.


You're being forced Guis?

c'mon..... give yourselves a little more credit than that.
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Postby Guiscard on Wed May 23, 2007 8:32 am

Iz Man wrote:
Guiscard wrote:Safety - The terrorist bombings in London were perpetrated with the express aim of getting our troops out of Iraq. If we were not in Iraq and were not forced to support aggressive American imperialism we, in the UK, would be a hell of a lot safer.


You're being forced Guis?

c'mon..... give yourselves a little more credit than that.


Forced in the sense that the relationship we have with America has developed since the war, through our efforts as well, to the point where if the USA goes to war and asks us to we are forced to. We no longer have any real military independence, which is our own fault... Obviously our governments have got us into this situation. We were forced into going to war, but not forced to create the 'special relationship' which I believe limits our independence so much. In essence, the US knows that we will back it with military support when asked, and in this case it has asked us to back it in immoral imperialism.
qwert wrote:Can i ask you something?What is porpose for you to open these Political topic in ConquerClub? Why you mix politic with Risk? Why you not open topic like HOT AND SEXY,or something like that.
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Postby Guiscard on Wed May 23, 2007 8:37 am

Iz Man wrote:
Guiscard wrote:Safety - The terrorist bombings in London were perpetrated with the express aim of getting our troops out of Iraq. If we were not in Iraq and were not forced to support aggressive American imperialism we, in the UK, would be a hell of a lot safer.


You're being forced Guis?

c'mon..... give yourselves a little more credit than that.


Also, answer my WMDs question in the other thread (or is it this one?)
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Postby Iz Man on Wed May 23, 2007 8:54 am

Guiscard wrote:Forced in the sense that the relationship we have with America has developed since the war, through our efforts as well, to the point where if the USA goes to war and asks us to we are forced to.


Its called an "alliance".
The U.K. backs up the U.S. and vice versa.
You're not recommending G.B. adopt an isolationist policy, are you?
:wink:
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Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed May 23, 2007 8:56 am

[quote][quote="Guiscard"][quote="Iz Man"][quote="Guiscard"]
Safety - The terrorist bombings in London were perpetrated with the express aim of getting our troops out of Iraq. If we were not in Iraq and were not forced to support aggressive American imperialism we, in the UK, would be a hell of a lot safer. [/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
You're being [i][b]forced[/b][/i] Guis?

c'mon..... give yourselves a little more credit than that.[/quote]

Forced in the sense that the relationship we have with America has developed since the war, through our efforts as well, to the point where if the USA goes to war and asks us to we are forced to. We no longer have any real military independence, which is our own fault... Obviously our governments have got us into this situation. We were forced into going to war, but not forced to create the 'special relationship' which I believe limits our independence so much. In essence, the US knows that we will back it with military support when asked, and in this case it has asked us to back it in immoral imperialism.[/quote]

Look who's talking with the Imperialism :roll: . Ever heard the phrase "The sun never sets on the British Empire"? And you guys wanted us to get involved with a couple of world wars if I recall correctly. [-X
"Eh, whatever."
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Postby Iz Man on Wed May 23, 2007 8:57 am

Guiscard wrote:[
Also, answer my WMDs question in the other thread (or is it this one?)


I'm pretty sure its the other thread.
I will answer. I'll admit its a good question. Don't worry, I won't disappoint...
:wink:
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Postby Dancing Mustard on Wed May 23, 2007 9:01 am

Oh wow, the tides of the forums washed this creaking pile of trash to the social lounge...

I miss that Gingis guy though. Flaming him was fun times.
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Postby Guiscard on Wed May 23, 2007 9:08 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Look who's talking with the Imperialism :roll: . Ever heard the phrase "The sun never sets on the British Empire"? And you guys wanted us to get involved with a couple of world wars if I recall correctly. [-X


Yeh, and the Nazis carried out genocide. That doesn't mean that today's Germans can go and try and wipe out the Jews does it?!?

We need to learn from the travesties of the past, not use them as an excuse. The colonists were oh-so eager to get away from British Imperialism, so I see it as pretty ridiculous that you use our past actions as an excuse for your present ones.

And what have the World Wars got to do with anything? They were genuine conflicts where it was important to fight for the freedom and liberty of sovereign nations. Today's international scene is very very different. If you say 'well we saved your asses' then please infer what this has to do with anything whatsoever?

And finally, learn to quote properly you idiot.
qwert wrote:Can i ask you something?What is porpose for you to open these Political topic in ConquerClub? Why you mix politic with Risk? Why you not open topic like HOT AND SEXY,or something like that.
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