Stating the case for de facto double turns

[alster]

Having made a post with a similar statement in another thread, I figured might as well lay down the case for why the de facto double turns is not only a beautiful thing, it is also a perfectly good tactical move that is an integrated part of the freestyle game.


Back in July 2006 a couple of major game changes were announced. See, http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3057

As a short background to those changes: Back in the days there were two types of freestyle settings to choose from (apart from sequential): (i) double turns and (ii) no double turns. With the double turns option the game engine allowed the player who went last in a round to start the next round (regardless of when this person wrapped up the round). This option was thrown out and we are left with a plain “freestyle” option.

In the announcement lackattack touched upon the de facto double turn issue, recognizing this possibility. So yes, the game engine is consciously set up this way. But it only can become a tactical advantage if the other player/players let it happen, i.e. not being there when the clock is up, which is advisable to be when choosing to play freestyle.


Construing the announcement: lackattack did not merely point out a “flaw” or “issue” with the game engine when making this announcement. Through the passage of time, he has also implicitly given his blessings to the de facto double turn.

Here one should keep in mind that lackattack is both the creator and, if you wish to call it so, the legsilator. He decides how the game engine will work (nothing is carved in stone here) and sets the rules (currently rule no. 1 and no. 2).

Lackattack obviously knows about the fact that the game engine allows for de facto double turns to be made. And, that knowledge can definitely be stated to have been there since July 2006 (but for sure, he has known about it for a longer period of time). Being the creator/legislator he has not acted on this (which he easily could have done) for an extensive period of time. Thus we can conclude (or at least argue) that this is a perfectly good tactical move that is not frowned upon by the creator/legislator. It's simply a part of the freestyle game.


Consequently: Players who have a problem with this, leaving negative feedback for it are just a bunch of ignorant whiners.


This PSA was brought to you by the good people of the BW's.

[boberz]

i whole heartedly agree, if you dont like it play sequential

[juventino]

Well.. I kinda agree and then not agree.

In the case of the de facto double turn not mcuh is done. If you are there you can play at the same time you too.

But what can happen is:

A double turn at the end of the clock. Taking alot of territories and perhaps a continent and thus getting more bonus then if you would have finished the turn correctly. And no player can get any oppertunity or chace to counterstrike against this.

[Coleman]

I'm still of the opinion that if you can't handle freestyle and the chance that you may be playing a vampire who is always online to rob you of your 15 points by using freestyle tactics you don't have the time, energy, or tactical know how to counter that you shouldn't play freestyle.

I don't play freestyle. Much. I used to during college season when I actually didn't sleep, if you don't sleep your chances of winning freestyle get pretty high. Used to farm 3FFAs for points, as that is literally what it felt like. There was rarely a chance for me not to win.

[Bob Janova]

I'm still of the opinion that if you can't handle freestyle and the chance that you may be playing a vampire who is always online to rob you of your 15 points by using freestyle tactics you don't have the time, energy, or tactical know how to counter that you shouldn't play freestyle.

This may be fair comment. However, the '23 hours and 59 minutes double turn' is a 'tactic' (I'd say exploit) which is impossible to counter, as you time out before you are allowed to play.

[alster]

This may be fair comment. However, the '23 hours and 59 minutes double turn' is a 'tactic' (I'd say exploit) which is impossible to counter, as you time out before you are allowed to play.

Of course not. Then you have a minute to play. Both players have equal time to take their round. Once a round opens up, it's open to everyone. That's freestyle. All you need to do is be there.

[juventino]

Yes. But the move in eg a team game. Team 1 takes their turn. Adn team two 2 waits and waits and take there turn before 24 h but runs out of time. Then tey can start the new turn with an enormous advantage.

[maniacmath17]

I don't mind people using it in singles since you know what you're getting into when you join a game, but the rule has to be changed simply because of how easily it can be exploited in team games. If you have a 3 person team that all coordinate turns, they practically can't lose when up against 3 random opponents.

[AAFitz]

i have no problem with the current freestyle other than the fact that I dont play it because of the double turns....

I dont mind waiting till the other player isnt around to play, obviously necessary

what I mind, is that I love freestyle, I love trying to out-click my opponents, get my bonus before broken, kill the main opponent force before it can do anything...in short all the things that make it an absolute blast, and adrenaline rush...

the problem with the defacto double turn, is that it forces you to use it...so many people do, that you almost have to to insure victory

Id love to have an option to play freestyle, without the double turn possibility...

but since Im not about to farm points from noobs that dont know whats going on with it, and feel dirty giving someone 5 seconds to make their turn, I just dont play them anymore...but I would love to, if only the double turn scenario could be eliminated reasonably, even as a different option or something...

i have nothing against the players that use it, I just dont happen to be one who wants to

[AndyDufresne]

...Lackattack obviously knows about the fact that the game engine allows for de facto double turns to be made. And, that knowledge can definitely be stated to have been there since July 2006 (but for sure, he has known about it for a longer period of time). Being the creator/legislator he has not acted on this (which he easily could have done) for an extensive period of time. Thus we can conclude (or at least argue) that this is a perfectly good tactical move that is not frowned upon by the creator/legislator. It's simply a part of the freestyle game.


Consequently: Players who have a problem with this, leaving negative feedback for it are just a bunch of ignorant whiners.

Actually, I think one of lack's next updates might include something to get rid of the double turns.


--Andy

[AAFitz]

...Lackattack obviously knows about the fact that the game engine allows for de facto double turns to be made. And, that knowledge can definitely be stated to have been there since July 2006 (but for sure, he has known about it for a longer period of time). Being the creator/legislator he has not acted on this (which he easily could have done) for an extensive period of time. Thus we can conclude (or at least argue) that this is a perfectly good tactical move that is not frowned upon by the creator/legislator. It's simply a part of the freestyle game.


Consequently: Players who have a problem with this, leaving negative feedback for it are just a bunch of ignorant whiners.

Actually, I think one of lack's next updates might include something to get rid of the double turns.


--Andy

I think what hes saying alstergen, is you have nothing to worry about for quite a while.....double turns will be here for a very long time

[reverend_kyle]

So basically I was wondering what the hell you were talking about and why you felt the need to justify this.

So I looked at your games...

http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?p ... alstergren

At that point I realized how desperate you were for points. You went fishing in games(note how you always join last). With low ranked players because they have a very very low likelihood of knowing about this exploit and are whining because one of them left you negative feedback for using this tactic. You sir are the main definition of a tool.


I don't have a problem with using this tactic. If you would have started games and used it I wouldn't have minded at all, because then you can't control who joins your game, but specifically searching for people who wouldn't know what you are about to do just so that you can use this to win. That is pathetic.

[disk]

So basically I was wondering what the hell you were talking about and why you felt the need to justify this.

So I looked at your games...

http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?p ... alstergren

At that point I realized how desperate you were for points. You went fishing in games(note how you always join last). With low ranked players because they have a very very low likelihood of knowing about this exploit and are whining because one of them left you negative feedback for using this tactic. You sir are the main definition of a tool.


I don't have a problem with using this tactic. If you would have started games and used it I wouldn't have minded at all, because then you can't control who joins your game, but specifically searching for people who wouldn't know what you are about to do just so that you can use this to win. That is pathetic.

No wonder he doesn't think there is anything wrong with it. Dispicable. Someone here was telling me the other day about "honor." How honorable is that kind of parasitic play? New players should be warned.

[alster]

LOL! Actually I personally has never liked the fact that the move is possible much (it belongs in the double turns allowed setting that now is gone). (Click on the link from about a year ago.) But, on the other hand, I have for a long time found it whining and hypocritical when people have complained about it.

Other than that I'm sure you two will learn enough about the game when you've been around for a while not to make such ignorant posts.

(I considered a link here to an old post, but since I know that one would get this thread moved into the flame forum, I'll hold that little candy back for a while.)

[reverend_kyle]

An ignorant posts? I'm all for this move if you've created the game. I'm going to be super honest. You can't control who joins games you start and I think negative feedback is warranted anyways. Or at least neutral. It would be fair warning to the person who joins your game that you are willing to use that move, but to purposely join low ranked players just because you don't know they'll know that is crazy. Are you that desperate for points? Also, the only response you can come up with is.. "You're ignorant." You sir, are insane.

[comic boy]

Alstergren
I think that as the double turn move is currently within the rules then you have a legitimate right to use it as you see fit. It is also however perfectly legitimate for those unaware of the finer points of freestyle to voice their disaproval if they feel cheated. The obvious solution is for you to play those with far more experience, this may cost you points though no doubt will get you less abuse.

[ptlowe]

This may be fair comment. However, the '23 hours and 59 minutes double turn' is a 'tactic' (I'd say exploit) which is impossible to counter, as you time out before you are allowed to play.

Of course not. Then you have a minute to play. Both players have equal time to take their round. Once a round opens up, it's open to everyone. That's freestyle. All you need to do is be there.

Sounds good wish they would bring back double turns allowed option. But defacto works too.

[reverend_kyle]

Alstergren
I think that as the double turn move is currently within the rules then you have a legitimate right to use it as you see fit. It is also however perfectly legitimate for those unaware of the finer points of freestyle to voice their disaproval if they feel cheated. The obvious solution is for you to play those with far more experience, this may cost you points though no doubt will get you less abuse.

Well, and not search for those with low points. That's the thing that really bothers me here. Otherwise, I'm all for them.