Westeros - A Song of Ice and Fire [abandoned]

Have an idea for a map? Discuss ideas and concepts here.

Moderators: Cartographers, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Westeros - A Song of Ice and Fire [abandoned]

Postby Spockers on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:32 am

Latest Version:
[img]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/KEYOGI/RWP/RWP-3.jpg

Previous Versions:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/WallyCombover/RWPcc.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/KEYOGI/RWP/RWP-7.jpg

Territories: 42

This is a joint project between myself and Keyogi.

It is taken from the George R. R. Martin series, A Song of Ice and Fire. Copyright has been taken care of.
Image
User avatar
Private 1st Class Spockers
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:11 pm

Postby KEYOGI on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:36 am

Comments on the colours of the text would be good too. In paticular the gold and orange so close to each other. Each colour represents the houses of Westeros, so can't really be changed, but they can be tweaked to try and produce better results if needed.
Sergeant 1st Class KEYOGI
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 am
Medals: 3
Map Contribution (2) General Contribution (1)

Postby Xyl on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:42 am

That looks awesome. =D> Maybe you could give one of orange or gold a different outline, like for the two blues? Or just lighten up the gold, the closeness of the hue wouldn't matter as much if the brightnesses were clearly different.
Major Xyl
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:43 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Postby edbeard on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:45 am

I'm just wondering about how you'll be able to get from East to West. But, I'm sure they'll be water paths or something so that Moat Calin to The Twins doesn't serve as a bottleneck. Honestly I don't really need to say anything about that because you two know what you're doing, so I'll just wait and see what exactly you offer.

Is this going to be a straightforward map, or are there going to be ports or capitals? I've never heard of the series, so I'm totally in the dark.

Everything looks top notch so far guys, and 42 is a great number.

about the colours, maybe use a brighter yellow? The orange is too simlar
User avatar
Major edbeard
 
Posts: 2501
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:41 am
Medals: 18
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) Map Contribution (5) General Contribution (3)

Postby Spockers on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:56 am

The unfortunate shape of the map is being taken into account, and we have in mind to make great game-play without bottlenecks.

Unfortunately this means one or two boat routes will be necessary, but this will be kept to a minimum.

I despise any sort of gimmick in a map, so it will be an old-school classic one.
Image
User avatar
Private 1st Class Spockers
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:11 pm

Postby edbeard on Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:00 am

I don't despise them, but lets just say that I prefer not to have them. Glad to hear it.

Oh I meant to ask. You have rivers, and I'm assuming they're impassable? Are there going to be other types of impassable borders?

Or, just ignore this and I'll wait until you come with the update
User avatar
Major edbeard
 
Posts: 2501
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:41 am
Medals: 18
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) Map Contribution (5) General Contribution (3)

Postby Spockers on Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:06 am

At this stage, nothing is being planned as 'impassable'

I think these are unnecessary if you have well planned territories.
Image
User avatar
Private 1st Class Spockers
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:11 pm

Postby Xyl on Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:45 am

It seems like The Eyrie, at least, should have some impassable borders. It would feel strange to see armies marching through it to get somewhere else.
Major Xyl
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:43 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Awesome

Postby Keredrex on Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:36 pm

I am Reading the Book Now Actually... Looks good so far ... as for the Font ... What if you had a slightly different Font Per House .... It would solve some of the color issues .... also Lighten The Map, make it a little brighter...
OR you could put a Faint color to the army circles Or border lines (When you have them) to define the Houses....

you should put a DIRE WOLF image Small In the Corner
User avatar
Lieutenant Keredrex
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:41 am
Location: New York
Medals: 9
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Postby Coleman on Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Color Coding the key would really improve matters.
Warning: You may be reading a really old topic.
User avatar
Sergeant Coleman
 
Posts: 5402
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:36 pm
Location: Midwest
Medals: 25
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2)
Training Achievement (1) Map Contribution (6) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (2)

Postby Jarita on Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:45 pm

I think the map looks great - Ive read what has so far been written in this series and loved it so I thought this was a fantastic idea for a map.

The colours seem ok to me. I agree with colour coding the key though too.

I like with the idea of a dire wolf somewhere on the map.

I'm really looking forward to playing this map!!
Private Jarita
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:29 am
Location: off with the fairies

Postby DiM on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:04 pm

i have no idea what are the books about so the theme does not interest me.
the graphics look really good so i don't have any comments in this chapter.

as for the gameplay i have one concern that's already been expressed: the bottleneck.

i'd like to see some terit borders to form a better idea about the gameplay.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Image
User avatar
Major DiM
 
Posts: 10554
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: making maps for scooby snacks
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Map Contribution (10)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

Postby Teya on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:23 pm

DiM wrote:i have no idea what are the books about so the theme does not interest me.

at least this has a theme and isnt just some made up crap. :roll:

I havent read the books, and I dont plan to. However it is the map Im interested in. Not the theme.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Teya
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:25 am

Postby Unit_2 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:23 pm

looks good just need to add attack routes
Image
User avatar
Private 1st Class Unit_2
 
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A, North America, Earth, Milky Way, Universe.
Medals: 10
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Postby DiM on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Teya wrote:
DiM wrote:i have no idea what are the books about so the theme does not interest me.

at least this has a theme and isnt just some made up crap. :roll:


huh?? :shock:

did i miss any recent made-up themeless crap?
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Image
User avatar
Major DiM
 
Posts: 10554
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: making maps for scooby snacks
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Map Contribution (10)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

Postby Teya on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:35 pm

I meant made up themes.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Teya
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:25 am

Postby DiM on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:38 pm

Teya wrote:I meant made up themes.


this is also a made-up theme.
the only difference is that it's made up by George R. R. Martin not by the actual map makers :wink:


also i don't see what's the problem with a map maker creating an original theme? why is copying an existing theme better? :roll:
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Image
User avatar
Major DiM
 
Posts: 10554
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: making maps for scooby snacks
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Map Contribution (10)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

Postby Spockers on Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:54 pm

Ok update time.

Image

As you can see the following changes have been made:

- Territory borders have been put in:
Where possible, rivers have been used as borders and the dotted lined represent the rest.

-Boat routes
Unfortunately

- Tentative bonuses
Please note these are only on here to give you an idea of how the game will work. They are subject to change.

- The Legend
Please note, that a much prettier version of the legend and a title is on it's way, so no need to point out that it's ugly.


Comments would be great, particularly regarding territory placement.

Cheers.
Image
User avatar
Private 1st Class Spockers
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:11 pm

Postby KEYOGI on Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:12 pm

Some discussions on bonuses would be great. The current ones are based on the MS Excel file of WidowMakers, but I feel some could use adjusting. I particularly don't like the fact there's two bonuses of 7 and three of 3.

I realise the border style might not be ideal, but honestly... I'm not sure there's an ideal solution. Working with rivers as borders was a challenge, especially since we wanted a style that wouldn't detract to much from the background map image. Dotted lines were the best comprimise we came up with, but we're still open to suggestions for a better style.

I'm not certain on the sea connections either, but the current style seemed to sit best with the rest of the map. Again, open to suggestions, although I've already tried numerous styles.

Territory fonts and colours were also updated. The houses of Baratheon and Martell should now be more distinguishable from each other. The slightly smaller font was used to try and reduce the impact of text on the map while remaining legible.

Once the territory layout is more final and the bonuses worked out, the title and legend will be worked on. We really want to get gameplay sorted first though.
Sergeant 1st Class KEYOGI
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 am
Medals: 3
Map Contribution (2) General Contribution (1)

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:26 pm

first of all while i understand the intention of keeping the background image as clear as possible i don't agree with how the continents are marked solely by the color in the territory names. i find it rather difficult to spot the continents at a glance. i really have to look closely and carefully analyze.

i don't know perhaps a small colored fade on the terits or at least some colored borders would be better.

second i don't quite like the continents and the borders.
1st problem is the huge continent at the top. i'm talking about stark. usually big and impossible to hold continents are supposed to be in the middle.

if an unlucky player has to start there he has no chance. getting the huge continent is impossible for many turns and if he ever manages to take it he will either find it impossible to hold or it will be too late.

second i don't like the +3 for tully. it has just 2 terits. i'd give it a +1

third lannister +5?? come on i agree it has 4 terits and 4 borders but +5 is too much. i'd say a +3 or +4 at most. my rule is that a continent should not be worth more than his terit number.

same problem with tyrell. the bonus is bigger than the terit number. +4 or +5 at most.

as i said before i don't have any idea what this is based on so i'm guesing the continents represent something. if they don't and are just made up by you guys then may i suggest splitting stark in half?


edit// also in some terits the names overlap the borders even if they have plenty of space to fit. could you please sort it?
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Image
User avatar
Major DiM
 
Posts: 10554
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: making maps for scooby snacks
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Map Contribution (10)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

Postby KEYOGI on Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:22 pm

Thanks for those comments DiM.

Marking out continents has been one of the biggest challenges of this map. We've had coloured rings around army cirlces, coloured borders, a colour over the continents, various fades, gradients, etc, etc. These sort of issues have taken up a great deal more time than creating the actual landscape.

I understand your concerns about the house of Stark. All the territories and continents are taken directly from the first book, so we were left with little to do but try and fit gameplay as best we could around our limitations. The Stark's have four defensive territories and border four out of six of the other houses. To me at least, this is as close as we could arrange it to act like it is in the middle of the map. There's 13 territories in total for the Starks and a bonus of 7 which seems justified. I'm not against reducing the bonus to 6 if people are really worried they will be too strong.

The Baratheon's is another large continent with 8 territories, so I think most of the action at the start would be in the other five houses. I agree the Tully's are overpowered with a bonus of 3, I think 2 would be more fitting. The same for the Arryns.

Remember, these bonus numbers came straight from the Excel file. We wanted to get opinions on the bonuses, thus why we didn't change them ourselves. I think a bonus of 4 would be most suited for the Lannister's and probably 5 for the Tyrell's. I really would have liked to reduce the borders for the Tyrell's, but there's not really any way to do this without using impassables.

The map is based on the series of books A Song of Ice and Fire. The map as represented in the books is split in two because it's so tall. If the map was to be done properly, it would be at least as big as mibi's Trojan War map, which is so far beyond the size limitations it's not funny.

Could you mention specifically which overlapping names are bothering you? The only one I can identify with enough room to move is Silverhill.
Sergeant 1st Class KEYOGI
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 am
Medals: 3
Map Contribution (2) General Contribution (1)

Postby snufkin on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:20 am

I like the fact that the borders are modest rather than right in your face.. but can you make the continent borders look different from the country borders for a little more immediate clarity?

not more intrusive - just slightly different for faster identification of the bonus continent borders..?

perhaps just a minor tinge since most countries have natural borders as well as drawn
Last edited by snufkin on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
The comet cometh!
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class snufkin
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:40 am
Location: borderland of Ranrike
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Postby unriggable on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:25 am

Make the countries clearer - make the border the indicator of the continent.

EDIT So that's where pink floyd lives...
Image
User avatar
Cook unriggable
 
Posts: 8037
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:49 pm
Medals: 4
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am

KEYOGI wrote:Thanks for those comments DiM.


here's more :D

KEYOGI wrote:Marking out continents has been one of the biggest challenges of this map. We've had coloured rings around army cirlces, coloured borders, a colour over the continents, various fades, gradients, etc, etc. These sort of issues have taken up a great deal more time than creating the actual landscape.


yes i understand but as i said i find it really hard to spot what country belongs to what continent. i like to have a clear perspective at a glance. and frankly i can't here. while i really appreciate your efforts i still feel something other than just colored terit names needs to be done. perhaps try and offer a few alternatives with fades gradients, etc and let people choose the less intrusive one.

KEYOGI wrote:I understand your concerns about the house of Stark. All the territories and continents are taken directly from the first book, so we were left with little to do but try and fit gameplay as best we could around our limitations. The Stark's have four defensive territories and border four out of six of the other houses. To me at least, this is as close as we could arrange it to act like it is in the middle of the map. There's 13 territories in total for the Starks and a bonus of 7 which seems justified. I'm not against reducing the bonus to 6 if people are really worried they will be too strong.


i'm not debating the bonus of stark. 7 is good. i'm just debating it's position. stark is like asia big continent big bonus. but unlike asia it is very isolated. it's not a passing continent. it's crammed into a corner. and as i said if somebody is unlucky enough to start there he has no chance of winning. in a 6 player game he could easily end up there with 5-6 terits. he can't expand quick enough to get the whole continent and he has no other option to run to. for example on classic if you have 5-6 terits in asia you can easily go to australia and get a bonus. but 5-6 terits in stark are a crappy start. and by the time you manage to get the whole continent probably the others already have more troops than you and won't let you keep it.


KEYOGI wrote:The Baratheon's is another large continent with 8 territories, so I think most of the action at the start would be in the other five houses. I agree the Tully's are overpowered with a bonus of 3, I think 2 would be more fitting. The same for the Arryns.


if you put 2 for tully you can't put 2 for arryn. tully is like belgish in benelux map. so just +1. 2 for arryn is good.

KEYOGI wrote:Remember, these bonus numbers came straight from the Excel file. We wanted to get opinions on the bonuses, thus why we didn't change them ourselves. I think a bonus of 4 would be most suited for the Lannister's and probably 5 for the Tyrell's. I really would have liked to reduce the borders for the Tyrell's, but there's not really any way to do this without using impassables.


the excell file is not that great. yes it offers you a basic idea but i've stated this many times. the excell file treats each continent as a single entity. it can't see the map as a whole. for example 2 continents may be worth +3 each in the excell file but when you look at the map you see you can hold both of them with just one border due to the overall layout. would it be right to get a +6 with just 1 border? obviously not so the solution is to reduce their bonus to +2 each.

what i do (don't know if i said this before) when i analyze a map is this.

enter all the continents in excell and get some values. then figure different expansion processes on the map and see groups of continents that can be formed. for example let's take the australia map. i calculate the bonus for all the continents and then i figure the expansions. someone starting in victoria will naturally go for new south wales. i consider the new formed continent which actually consists of the 2 continents. enter the new data in the excell and get a new bonus. now i tweak the previous bonuses to correspond to the new one. i hope that is clear.


KEYOGI wrote:The map is based on the series of books A Song of Ice and Fire. The map as represented in the books is split in two because it's so tall. If the map was to be done properly, it would be at least as big as mibi's Trojan War map, which is so far beyond the size limitations it's not funny.


i like big maps. i don't see a problem with that. to be frank i consider size limitations to be wrong. if i have a small monitor and the map is too big i'll stick to the small maps and play just those. if the size restrictions would be taken out there would be a natural selection. people won't do 4000*4000px maps because nobody would play them and so they would go as far as the foundry let's them. people complained about the AoM size a lot. i could not make it any smaller so i kept it at 800*800 and people still play it. i agree perhaps i lost some potential players along the way due to size but the fact that people still play it proves i did not exaggerate. if mibi gets trojan quenched perhaps nobody will play it due to size (though i doubt it) and so we'll have a clear statement of what is too much.

KEYOGI wrote:Could you mention specifically which overlapping names are bothering you? The only one I can identify with enough room to move is Silverhill.


silverhill. move right
crakehall. move right
riverrun. move left
ashford. move right and a bit down
the tor. move right
salt shore. move left
storm's end. move right and a bit up
the dreadfort. this is problematic because you can move the text but not the army circle. but the ones above can be solved with moving both.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Image
User avatar
Major DiM
 
Posts: 10554
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: making maps for scooby snacks
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Map Contribution (10)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

Postby Xyl on Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:26 pm

It's beautiful, but unfortunately the territory borders are hard to see at a glance. You have to examine the map to find what borders what. Two things I notice:

There are a bunch of rivers that nearly bisect a territory, and only a short dotted line at the end tells you which rivers are territory borders and which aren't, such as Seagard, Bitterbridge, and The Rills. Could you distinguish the border rivers somehow, maybe some sort of highlight?

There are a few places where it's hard to tell if two territories border each other. Mistwood and Storm's End? (Looks like yes.) The Eyrie and Gull Town? (Looks like yes.) The Eyrie and The Fingers? (Looks like no.) Highgarden and Starfall? (Looks like yes.) Casterly Rock and Silverhill? (Looks like no.)

Oh, and just because there's an important event from the books I think deserves to have a reference... can we get a sea route from Storm's End to either Karhold or The Wall? :)
Major Xyl
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:43 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Next

Return to Melting Pot: Map Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron
Login