INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Metsfanmax]

If pershy is scummy, wouldn't his defense of jfm strengthen the argument to lynch jfm (and vice versa)?

Not necessarily, at this point. As it stands now, if we lynch jfm and he flips what he says, the people who posted after that claim and didn't unvote (or voted him after the claim) look massively suspect. Defense of jfm could just be a town cred play at this point. And since jfm has basically said that he's just going to protect himself every night from now on (which isn't an irrational play), that means jfm is now potentially pretty useless to town, so scum don't even gain a whole lot from trying to lynch him at this point.

[aage]

Unvote: jfm10

Seeing as the two remaining wagons with any semblance of traction are Metsfanmax & chapcrap...

I've looked back at every single post made by Metsfanmax, and the vote for chapcrap was Metsfanmax's first post of the game. chapcrap had made two posts at that time, the first being that which Metsfanmax took issue with for being "a blatant attempt to gain town cred early on", so... hardly the scummiest thing in the world.

You don't think blatant attempts to gain town cred are scummy? Fascinating.

I would also disagree that said post had nothing of value: "How many of us are playing to win the mafia game and how many are attempting to win credits?" is actually an interesting question, and one that may well become a topic of discussion if certain things pan out the way I expect them to.

Oh yeah? Do you think people are going to come out and say "eh I don't give a shit about winning, I'm just here for the conquer credits?" It might be an interesting question but it's not one that adds any value to the game to voice.

You guys have been throwing around accusations of misrepresenting statements, but this right here is strawmanning plain and simple. Is that also part of your playstyle?

[Metsfanmax]

Unvote: jfm10

Seeing as the two remaining wagons with any semblance of traction are Metsfanmax & chapcrap...

I've looked back at every single post made by Metsfanmax, and the vote for chapcrap was Metsfanmax's first post of the game. chapcrap had made two posts at that time, the first being that which Metsfanmax took issue with for being "a blatant attempt to gain town cred early on", so... hardly the scummiest thing in the world.

You don't think blatant attempts to gain town cred are scummy? Fascinating.

I would also disagree that said post had nothing of value: "How many of us are playing to win the mafia game and how many are attempting to win credits?" is actually an interesting question, and one that may well become a topic of discussion if certain things pan out the way I expect them to.

Oh yeah? Do you think people are going to come out and say "eh I don't give a shit about winning, I'm just here for the conquer credits?" It might be an interesting question but it's not one that adds any value to the game to voice.

You guys have been throwing around accusations of misrepresenting statements, but this right here is strawmanning plain and simple. Is that also part of your playstyle?

How is it strawmanning?

[dakky21]

If pershy is scummy, wouldn't his defense of jfm strengthen the argument to lynch jfm (and vice versa)?

Not necessarily, at this point. As it stands now, if we lynch jfm and he flips what he says, the people who posted after that claim and didn't unvote (or voted him after the claim) look massively suspect. Defense of jfm could just be a town cred play at this point. And since jfm has basically said that he's just going to protect himself every night from now on (which isn't an irrational play), that means jfm is now potentially pretty useless to town, so scum don't even gain a whole lot from trying to lynch him at this point.

I'll just ask again - even if jfm is telling the truth, you are willing to give him a free pass to the end of the game because he is just useless to town? Ever considered that he is lying and you've given scum the free pass? Defense of jfm could be a town cred play, yes. But it can also be a scum trying to defend a fellow and you sound like you completely disallow that possibility.

[aage]

I didn't rolefish.

Well, let's see.

jfm's claim came out of nowhere, IMO. It seems REALLY fishy to me. That being said, I'm not sure if I believe him, but I think if someone is claiming that straight off, we should give them the benefit of the doubt, not lynch him. No one is counterclaiming, so I would believe him at this point.

I called this lowkey rolefishing because you say you believe him because nobody is counterclaiming - that just spurs other people with a protective town role into counterclaiming.

@jfm I agree with Tobi on the claim. Is there a reason to not say your species? It does not make sense to me. Your role (protective) is a lot more potent information than your species and you gave that up like it was a tictac. Are you just waiting for L-2?

Yeah, that's rolefishing. I've been wanting to make a joke about role-fishing and the game's theme for a while, so here it is: you're fishing for his fish.

fp'd

How is it strawmanning?

"blatant attempts to gain town cred early on aren't the scummiest thing one can do" ---> "blatant attempts to gain town cred early aren't scummy"

"In this game, players can play to win and to gain credits, this may become interesting" --> "people don't care about winning, only about credits"

[aage]

If pershy is scummy, wouldn't his defense of jfm strengthen the argument to lynch jfm (and vice versa)?

Not necessarily, at this point. As it stands now, if we lynch jfm and he flips what he says, the people who posted after that claim and didn't unvote (or voted him after the claim) look massively suspect. Defense of jfm could just be a town cred play at this point. And since jfm has basically said that he's just going to protect himself every night from now on (which isn't an irrational play), that means jfm is now potentially pretty useless to town, so scum don't even gain a whole lot from trying to lynch him at this point.

I'll just ask again - even if jfm is telling the truth, you are willing to give him a free pass to the end of the game because he is just useless to town? Ever considered that he is lying and you've given scum the free pass? Defense of jfm could be a town cred play, yes. But it can also be a scum trying to defend a fellow and you sound like you completely disallow that possibility.

Nobody is saying we should give jfm a free pass until the end of the game. We're simply saying it is pointless to lynch a powerful town claim on day one with a shitty case against them when there are other options. Jfm isn't confirmed town in my book, I just really don't want to lynch a doc claim right off the bat. He didn't panic into that claim either - he softclaimed it when he had like 2 votes on him already.

[Metsfanmax]

I'll just ask again - even if jfm is telling the truth, you are willing to give him a free pass to the end of the game because he is just useless to town?

No. I'm willing to give him a free pass to D2.

How is it strawmanning?

"blatant attempts to gain town cred early on aren't the scummiest thing one can do" ---> "blatant attempts to gain town cred early aren't scummy"

It's hard to interpret "hardly the scummiest thing in the world" as anything other than "not scummy enough to be on my radar for voting someone," which in this case is the only thing that matters. I'm happy to amend my incredulous statement to "you don't think blatant attempts to gain town cred are scummy enough to merit a vote?" if that makes it clearer what I'm asking.

"In this game, players can play to win and to gain credits, this may become interesting" --> "people don't care about winning, only about credits"

Note that chap explicitly framed it as

How many of us are playing to win the mafia game and how many are attempting to win credits?

That is, that people are either playing to win or playing for credits, which is the framing I was objecting to. The credit mechanism could play a role in determining people's actions later in the game, but that doesn't imply that the people who act on that motivation aren't here to win mafia. And in any case, the very beginning of D1 is far too early be even commenting on that.

[Sirius Kase]

Welcome Strike, glad you are here. You aren't in danger yet, I have no reason to want you lynched, so I'll remove the vote meant for your predecessor.

You do understand that Strike inherited the role of his predecessor? So if you had something on Darin, it would still be worth. So when you say you do not have a reason to lynch Strike, it means you didn't have a reason for Darin as well.

I gave a reason when I voted for Darin. It doesn't apply to Strike.

[TX AG 90]

If pershy is scummy, wouldn't his defense of jfm strengthen the argument to lynch jfm (and vice versa)?

Not necessarily, at this point. As it stands now, if we lynch jfm and he flips what he says, the people who posted after that claim and didn't unvote (or voted him after the claim) look massively suspect. Defense of jfm could just be a town cred play at this point. And since jfm has basically said that he's just going to protect himself every night from now on (which isn't an irrational play), that means jfm is now potentially pretty useless to town, so scum don't even gain a whole lot from trying to lynch him at this point.

I'll just ask again - even if jfm is telling the truth, you are willing to give him a free pass to the end of the game because he is just useless to town? Ever considered that he is lying and you've given scum the free pass? Defense of jfm could be a town cred play, yes. But it can also be a scum trying to defend a fellow and you sound like you completely disallow that possibility.

Nobody is saying we should give jfm a free pass until the end of the game. We're simply saying it is pointless to lynch a powerful town claim on day one with a shitty case against them when there are other options. Jfm isn't confirmed town in my book, I just really don't want to lynch a doc claim right off the bat. He didn't panic into that claim either - he softclaimed it when he had like 2 votes on him already.

You don't want to lynch a doc off the bat even if the doc is only going to protect himself? Even if the lynch will give us information and/or kill a scum?

[dakky21]

But what is the purpose of a powerful town role if he is going to protect himself each night starting D1? Pointless to lynch a claimed doc who will protect himself? Whats the reasoning behind that... if he is telling the truth, scum won't target him and each night some other town PR will be killed, surely more important than an useless self-protecting Doc. Will he risk and try to protect someone and leave himself unprotected? I doubt it after he clearly stated he will protect himself.

He could be lying about being a Doc and I find it more helpful for town to lynch a practically useless VT D1 than someone else who might have a better role. And there's that, that useless VT who will cover his ass for the rest of the game - could be scum.

[pershy]

I'll just ask again - even if jfm is telling the truth, you are willing to give him a free pass to the end of the game because he is just useless to town? Ever considered that he is lying and you've given scum the free pass? Defense of jfm could be a town cred play, yes. But it can also be a scum trying to defend a fellow and you sound like you completely disallow that possibility.

Why is he useless to town? His ability could come in handy. He says now he is forced to use it no himself every night, but that might not be the case later in the game.

..and Bujaber just came onto my radar.

interesting case on Mets by Pikanchion. It seemed well laid out and logical to me. However Mets' defense was pretty good too so I'm not sure if Mets has my suspicion just yet. He did try and turn attention onto me at one point it seems....


fastposted by dakky - yes I see your point, but if it is a fake claim it's a v good one that I believe for now, and as I mentioned, what he says now might not be the case later on. I just don't wanna lynch someone that I think is town. But yes, I do get your point. My question to you is, do you think it's a fake claim? If not, I get that you think he's useless to town, but surely it's better to try and get scum rather than someone you think is town, despite the fact that you think they might not be helpful because their ability has been outed.

[strike wolf]

I actually tend to agree with Pershy on at least one point. Just because he says he's going to use it on himself doesn't mean that he's going to stick with that and saying well let's lynch this guy because he's just gonna protect himself without even trying to get him to change his mind is not the correct reaction here.

Frankly the case between Mets and Chap is stronger and also offers insights into whichever we don't lynch, Aage, Pikanchion and potentially others.

[dakky21]

fastposted by dakky - yes I see your point, but if it is a fake claim it's a v good one that I believe for now, and as I mentioned, what he says now might not be the case later on. I just don't wanna lynch someone that I think is town. But yes, I do get your point. My question to you is, do you think it's a fake claim? If not, I get that you think he's useless to town, but surely it's better to try and get scum rather than someone you think is town, despite the fact that you think they might not be helpful because their ability has been outed.

Let's put it this way:
There is a wagon on Mets/chap. Mets/chap could be a town Cop who will investigate and bring information tomorrow.
There is also a wagon on Jfm. Jfm is a doctor who will protect himself for the rest of the game.

Who do you want to lynch? Bring Mets to L-2 so he must claim Cop? Or lynch the VT who could be scum? I think the answer is pretty much self explanatory. It's not about fake claims, it's about lynching the lesser evil and possibly the scum.

[Metsfanmax]

But what is the purpose of a powerful town role if he is going to protect himself each night starting D1? Pointless to lynch a claimed doc who will protect himself? Whats the reasoning behind that... if he is telling the truth, scum won't target him and each night some other town PR will be killed, surely more important than an useless self-protecting Doc. Will he risk and try to protect someone and leave himself unprotected? I doubt it after he clearly stated he will protect himself.

If it gets to the point where there becomes another known town role worth protecting, then I will attempt to convince jfm10 of the point that he does have a choice on who to protect; he doesn't automatically have to protect himself. Then that does make scum's game harder, because they don't know who to choose, and might not choose either, since it might mean losing a night kill if they choose wrong.

[dakky21]

Well Mets, yeah, that's another point of view IF you believe Jfm is the real Doc. Sorry, but I don't.

[Metsfanmax]

Well Mets, yeah, that's another point of view IF you believe Jfm is the real Doc. Sorry, but I don't.

Ah, yes, thanks for pointing that out. I had added that caveat in an earlier version of the post but then erased it as I was rewording. The above is indeed predicated on me thinking jfm is telling the truth, which I'm not sure I do now, and my feeling on that could change later. I'm just not willing to take the leap on D1 for this.

[strike wolf]

fastposted by dakky - yes I see your point, but if it is a fake claim it's a v good one that I believe for now, and as I mentioned, what he says now might not be the case later on. I just don't wanna lynch someone that I think is town. But yes, I do get your point. My question to you is, do you think it's a fake claim? If not, I get that you think he's useless to town, but surely it's better to try and get scum rather than someone you think is town, despite the fact that you think they might not be helpful because their ability has been outed.

Let's put it this way:
There is a wagon on Mets/chap. Mets/chap could be a town Cop who will investigate and bring information tomorrow.
There is also a wagon on Jfm. Jfm is a doctor who will protect himself for the rest of the game.

Who do you want to lynch? Bring Mets to L-2 so he must claim Cop? Or lynch the VT who could be scum? I think the answer is pretty much self explanatory. It's not about fake claims, it's about lynching the lesser evil and possibly the scum.

I could go with the guy who's using shit logic to pretty much ignore other valid cases in favor of lynching in his own words a doctor.

[dakky21]

I could go with the guy who's using shit logic to pretty much ignore other valid cases in favor of lynching in his own words a doctor.

I have reasons why I don't believe he is a doctor.

[TX AG 90]

I could go with the guy who's using shit logic to pretty much ignore other valid cases in favor of lynching in his own words a doctor.

I have reasons why I don't believe he is a doctor.

Care to share?

[TX AG 90]

You guys have convinced me of the importance of a Day 1 lynch.

This my personal priority order.

1. Lynch someone we strongly suspect of being scum, chapcrap, jfm, or other
2. Lynch jfm - he's either scum or a self serving townie - lynching him may lose us a doc, but it will gather tons of info and/or kill some scum
3. No lynch

In other words, if a strong case can be made to lynch another and the votes gathered, I'll jump on. But, I'd rather lynch jfm than nobody.

[Sirius Kase]

You guys have convinced me of the importance of a Day 1 lynch.

I too am convinced we need to lynch on Day 1. Of your list of priorites, this makes the most sense as an action item:

Lynch jfm - he's either scum or a self serving townie - lynching him may lose us a doc

If he's a doc that only protects himself he's useless. If he's not, he's scum. We certainly don't need him if he's scum. The only remaining issue is whether we can tolerate a useless, potentially dangerous person while evaluating another candidate. We only get one lynch per day. It's possible that lynching jfm would be a wasted opportunity to get info on someone else, but there is the very real possibility that's he's scum and been confusing us with lies all along.

[aage]

You don't want to lynch a doc off the bat even if the doc is only going to protect himself? Even if the lynch will give us information and/or kill a scum?

Nope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY
There's this thing about using your night action to protect yourself, and saying you're using your night action to protect yourself but actually using it on someone else, and saying you're using your night action to protect yourself and counting on scum to think you're actually using it on someone else and using it on yourself anyway, ..........

Let's put it this way:
There is a wagon on Mets/chap. Mets/chap could be a town Cop who will investigate and bring information tomorrow.
There is also a wagon on Jfm. Jfm is a doctor who will protect himself for the rest of the game.

Who do you want to lynch? Bring Mets to L-2 so he must claim Cop? Or lynch the VT who could be scum? I think the answer is pretty much self explanatory. It's not about fake claims, it's about lynching the lesser evil and possibly the scum.

Why must Mets claim cop in this scenario?
Welcome to my scumdar, dakky.

[aage]

If he's a doc that only protects himself he's useless. If he's not, he's scum. We certainly don't need him if he's scum. The only remaining issue is whether we can tolerate a useless, potentially dangerous person while evaluating another candidate. We only get one lynch per day. It's possible that lynching jfm would be a wasted opportunity to get info on someone else, but there is the very real possibility that's he's scum and been confusing us with lies all along.

Why is a doc protecting himself useless? Is a bulletproof townie useless?
Any town player is useful to town, if nothing else because it is a vote that is not being controlled by scum. Your reasoning is waaaaaay off here.

[blacky365]

Apologies again for the silence over the weekend...

So... I think that JFM is prob telling us the truth, he has some sort of protective role.
As a townie, that is obvs good for us, so my instinct is to unvote based on not wanting to vote a fellow townie.

But then he says he will use his powers to save himself! I thought if thats the case we dont need you around, what is the point when you are just going to look after yourself.

However, as Aage pointed out, even a useless townie is good for town. I know there are no VT's here, but in most games there are, and their power lies in their vote. So if JFM only protects himself each night then he is still useful as he still has a vote during the day.

JFM was also very scummy in the way he went about revealing himself, that is one of the main reasons why i have left my vote on until now.


I do believe a D1 lynch is useful for town, but id rather take a gamble on someone I dont know about over someone im 80% sure is town.

UNVOTE

[Tobikera]

I have voted for pershy for reasons stated below. However, the mod had not credited me with that vote.

To me, the scummiest thing that has happened in the entire D1 was pershy coming off of 5 days hiatus and immediately voting for jfm10, bringing him to L-1 (at that time). That's not the way pershy usually plays. He hems and haws, patting people on the back, portrays himself as seeing all sides of the issue at hand, playing Mr. Understanding and Accepetance, AND THEN, even after building a case against someone, WILL NOT VOTE. He'll only vote when he acts like everyone else has convinced him to do so. He didn't do that here. He came back from vacation and immediately voted for jfm10, not just joining the wagon, but taking him to L-1 (pardon the repetition). I tell you, it's atypical pershyness.

Several of you have stated mild to severe doubts about pershy, but no one votes for him. I'm encouraging you to do so.