[Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

[anamainiacks]

Purely based on the posts betiko quoted above, I don't see what's scummy about Mets' response at all.

betiko was pointing out a supposed slip-up by rishaed - for alluding to a game mechanic that we weren't aware existed at the time;
Mets was calling out betiko for a supposed slip-up as well - for potentially 'knowing' that the game mechanic did indeed exist.

Especially after the contention over the game mechanics over gift stealing was made so clear, I don't think Mets can be called under suspicion for 'knowing' something that the rest of us didn't know of. If there was a slip-up in that dialogue at all, it should lie with either rishaed or betiko.

That said, I still think it was just a joke vote, and not much evidence with which to build a case... I don't think betiko slipped up either, as if he did, he wouldn't be bringing it up now, out of the blue. Best to leave a slip-up untouched. I guess he could well be calling our bluff with some reverse psychology thing, but since it would only last for a round (i.e. if he were indeed faking, we'd find out if we followed his lynch vote and failed), I don't think betiko would take such a risk.

I'm interested to see what betiko can find on rishaed's posts, though (:

[rishaed]

If there truly is a gift stealing mechanic out there, I wouldn't have know. I just looked above me to see who had already voted, saw MoB's avatar, and made an appropriate joke Vote. I know that you are trying really hard to dig up a case, but I think you are reading too much into that joke vote. Allluding to a game mechanic in a joke vote like that means absolutely nothing. It just as likely that anyone who makes a statment like that in a joke vote is town/scum. If you want to build a case on me go right ahead though.

[MoB Deadly]

I agree with the others. Based on the quote you provided the scummiest comment there was actually yours betiko

Kanin explained my initial thoughts pretty well

I dont see anything scummy from rishead or mets

[Iron Butterfly]

hum I got to say that wasn't the townie I was expecting to find dead today. But not really surprised to see that keener was telling the truth.
nendreel what are the news today?

"bah 1 day left, I don't see how this is gonna end other than with keener's lynch, might as well get this going.
vote superkeener.
A bit of a gamble, but that role will only be really usefull really later in the game. I have nothing that tells me he is scum or town, so with the doubt... anyway I don't know about that miser situation, they are not telling all the perks.."

I want to go back to keener because this seems important to me.

He was not surprised to see keener lynched and also states before the lynch he feels it is a forgone conclusion. Yet he say's I have nothing to tell me one way or another he is Town or Scum So he votes to lynch. Talk about hedging bets while trying to appear Town. Its easy to say after the fact about not being surprised.

I say all this because I also thought betiko had evidence on reshead about the gift stealing and even started a mini bandwagon. A page later it comes out there is no evidence, just pure speculation. While its ok to discuss speculation I find it very odd and scummy in the in the way it was presented.

What also raised my eyebrow was betiko believed Rishead should claim using false evidence. If betiko is mafia or third party it just helps set the table for them.

I also couldn't help but get the feeling that if rishead was lynched and flips town Betiko could once again safly go oh well I was wrong.

Vote Betiko

I will not be wishy washy.

[betiko]

hum I got to say that wasn't the townie I was expecting to find dead today. But not really surprised to see that keener was telling the truth.
nendreel what are the news today?

"bah 1 day left, I don't see how this is gonna end other than with keener's lynch, might as well get this going.
vote superkeener.
A bit of a gamble, but that role will only be really usefull really later in the game. I have nothing that tells me he is scum or town, so with the doubt... anyway I don't know about that miser situation, they are not telling all the perks.."

I want to go back to keener because this seems important to me.

He was not surprised to see keener lynched and also states before the lynch he feels it is a forgone conclusion. Yet he say's I have nothing to tell me one way or another he is Town or Scum So he votes to lynch. Talk about hedging bets while trying to appear Town. Its easy to say after the fact about not being surprised.

I say all this because I also thought betiko had evidence on reshead about the gift stealing and even started a mini bandwagon. A page later it comes out there is no evidence, just pure speculation. While its ok to discuss speculation I find it very odd and scummy in the in the way it was presented.

What also raised my eyebrow was betiko believed Rishead should claim using false evidence. If betiko is mafia or third party it just helps set the table for them.

I also couldn't help but get the feeling that if rishead was lynched and flips town Betiko could once again safly go oh well I was wrong.

Vote Betiko

I will not be wishy washy.

People have been telling me they were surprised I wasn't agressive on keener. if you look back I've been trying to find better stuff than this, but no one had been following. The case on keener was only smoke. After that, he claimed and I thought it was a dodgy role. Even if there was 90% chances he was telling the truth, I would've hated to have a mafia roleblocker or something, was pretty difficult to prove his role. I just gave up on him and went with the bet that he could eventually turn scum, other people had his faith sealed anyway and all conversations had died. So yes, I'm not surprised he turns out town as the odds for me were highly leaning that way. Blame me for his lynch if you want, that last vote really made the difference! why don't you look at people convinced back then by the fluffy case, like rishaed for example?

where did i say I had strong evidence on the gift stealing case? the lead is good enough for me since it's been ticking me since the start of the game. there is no rule that says that in the joke vote stage someone can't slip. Au contraire! People tend to lower their guard and can be more chitty chatty. Is it my fault if people blindly bandwagonned on my case without asking questions? that is the question.
ANd make him claim using false evidence? lol. false evidennce would be saying "I got a PM telling me rishaed stole all my gifts last night" can you quote the false evidence please, cause I can't quite catch you?

Suppose your case gets me lynched and you see that I'm town. You'll have to admit you were wrong, so would that mean you're scum? lol pretty moot thinking there.

[betiko]

wow, so much conversation in here. I wanted todo a little recap:

jonty -> rudolph, town redirector
Kanin Usagi -> little drummer boy, town inspiration
superkeener -> baby new year, town roleblocker

spiesr -> snow miser, 3rd party heat miser lyncher
soundman -> heat miser, 3rd party survivor
nendreel -> ?, possible town cop

so we are left with 10 we know very little about:
NoSurvivors
rishaed
betiko
edocsil
Little Witt
anamainiacks
Iron Butterfly
MoB Deadly
Metsfanmax
thechuck51

[betiko]

can we prod little witt, metsfan and edoc? they haven't posted in a week or so...

[Metsfanmax]

Most of that week was night time. I'll add in some more concrete thoughts in a day or two, but I am persuaded by the arguments against betiko. I won't vote yet until I can explain myself better.

[betiko]

well if you guys feel like wasting our time with me go ahead, if at least there were more stuff going on in here.. I guess that with the 2 gifts first cap no one has had the chance to trade anything yet (unless 2 different gifters sent their 1st gift to the same person on night 1 which would be very unlikely). I kind of feel like this is a bit unballanced for town if mafia are able to steal gifts (unless it's a 1 shot, and in that case it would be pretty stupid to use it so soon).I'm starting to think it's possibly more of a 3rd party ability, otherwise we stand no chance against them..
Anyway, I'm kind of thinking this could be a nice little setup. Mafia knew I would get jumpy about the gift stealing, so they targeted me. Did anyone receive a PM after night 1 telling them they got all their gifts stolen?

[MoB Deadly]

can we prod little witt, metsfan and edoc? they haven't posted in a week or so...

I think focusing on submariners is a good idea, with a game with this level of activity the scum could win just by casting a few votes and submarining. I have seen that happen before.


As for the case on betiko, I will say I have seen quite a few comments that jumped out at me. But at best betiko would get a FOS from me. He has been the most active, so of course I am not going to agree with every single post he makes. When there is 1 main leader of a mafia game you always have to be cautious that they dont fog up the game more and lead down dead paths.

However, I think our activity is slacking and without betiko this game will get even more inactive. I think he is worth more to us alive, even if we are risking a chance that he is mafia.

[spiesr]

One random point I feel like throwing out there. Based on the information we have right now, there is no proof that Betiko is telling the truth about gifts being stolen from him. It could be that he is scum and decided to use his gifts for a scummy action. By claiming they were stolen he avoids have to answer to the town when they ask what he did with his gifts. By implying the the thief is scum he avoids having the problem of the thief never claiming.

I have no reason to believe that this is the case at present. Just noting the possibility for future reference.

[rishaed]

The game has slowed down considerably more than usual. Unfortunately, i don't have any meaningful information atm, so its a bit hard for me to post on what's going on here. I'd rather not start posting fluff either.

[anamainiacks]

Wow, the game has really slowed down here. I apologise for my lack of posting these last few days, been busy celebrating the Chinese New Year so didn't have much time to analyse the posts and all. Now, to give my take on the stuff and raise a few points.

I'm not entirely convinced by IB's case on betiko, especially the first part about superkeener, which I don't quite understand. With regard to this, I think betiko's defence was pretty convincing, in that by the time he cast his vote for the lynch, to vote or to abstain would have resulted in no different outcome. That said, this doesn't quite cover the suspicion thrown onto him from his reaction to the earlier joke vote, but this at most gets an FOS from me, for now.

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

And I agree that we should be prodding the inactives... They can easily submarine at this rate.

[spiesr]

Well Betiko, your case against rishaed was slightly below average on Day 1, now it looks like bad on Day 3. Do you have any other angles we could look at? I'm not terribly motivated to find anything myself at the moment, but I would certainly offer my thoughts on any you come up with.

[pancakemix]

Vote Count

Rish - 1 (betiko)
betiko - 1 (IB)

Day ends on Feb. 22. A 24-hour runoff will be held in the even of a tie.

Little Witt was prodded yesterday, and as of right now has not responded. I'll be seeking a replacement. If there are any other requests for prod/replaces, do not hesitate to speak up.

[Metsfanmax]

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

What? He never said that his gifts were stolen, at least as far as I can tell. He was asking if that had happened to anyone else. In fact, he's taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously but now doesn't seem to think that the person who "slipped" and revealed that ability is the one that has it?

[Little Witt]

Sorry, was away for a long while. And sorry for not posting much, I was about to post several times when Betiko brought his case out but then decided not to after reading responses to it and I had lost the hope I had on getting that case going anywhere. I am not intentionally not posting in these games. RL has been rather busy, much busier than ever before.

[soundman]

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

What? He never said that his gifts were stolen, at least as far as I can tell. He was asking if that had happened to anyone else. In fact, he's taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously but now doesn't seem to think that the person who "slipped" and revealed that ability is the one that has it?

Betiko did say that his gifts were stolen.

and I can confirm that someone tried to steal my gifts last night.

vote rishaed

I just know that i received a pm telling me all gifts under my tree are gone. Good news is that i didn t have any (unless someone sent any night 2 that got stolen before i even got informed about it) so a roleblocker and a giftsteeler...

I think his case against Rishaed is very flimsy. In that joke vote exchange I think Betiko had the scummier reply. Personally I thought the same thing as Rishaed before the game even started.

[betiko]

But like spiesr pointed out, we don't know for sure whether betiko's telling the truth about his PM concerning gifts being stolen. If someone had his gifts stolen on Night 1, it would be great if he could corroborate this story too...

What? He never said that his gifts were stolen, at least as far as I can tell. He was asking if that had happened to anyone else. In fact, he's taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously but now doesn't seem to think that the person who "slipped" and revealed that ability is the one that has it?

technically as far as I know I haven't been stolen anything, it was an attempt as I had nothing to steal.
I didn't receive any gift on night 1 for sure; and on night 2 I don't know if pcm would've told me "you received 1 gift tonight but you discover it has been stolen when you woke up" if ever I had received something on night 2 before it got stolen.
I've just been told that the gifts that had been under the tree were gone. Mets, I am not "taking the gift stealing possibility quite seriously", I know for fact that someone has that ability, I think it was pretty clear and everyone got that.

PCM, did you not prod edoc too? his last message was 17 days ago...

otherwise, the general feeling is that everyone is on an apathic mood. "I don't feel like looking back for cases, please chew them out for me, then I will give you my wise and townie opinion, eventually conclude that you're the scum for making such cases". no one is really trying and it's not really motivating.


fastposted

[edocsil]

Here are the unknown players who have posted almost nothing of merit today

NoSurvivors
rishaed
Little Witt
Myself

I would suggest a Lynch between those. I see little merit of the stuff regarding Rish or betiko, it's WIFOMy and just kinda bizarre in general.

My choice is vote Little Witt He has posted a few times saying that he is trying to improve his participation. I find this unacceptable, just as unacceptable as my continued lack of participation. However, if you all do decide to pursue me for inactivity instead I will be able to easily verify my role if forced to claim.

[betiko]

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

[Metsfanmax]

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

betiko is jumping all over the place. edoc didn't say anything that wasn't obvious from reading Little Witt's post, but apparently it was enough to convince betiko to change his vote.

The only reason I'm not voting betiko at this point is that I think he's too experienced to just blatantly put himself out there like this (which admittedly can devolve into WIFOM) if he was scum, but FOS betiko.

[edocsil]

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

betiko is jumping all over the place. edoc didn't say anything that wasn't obvious from reading Little Witt's post, but apparently it was enough to convince betiko to change his vote.

The only reason I'm not voting betiko at this point is that I think he's too experienced to just blatantly put himself out there like this (which admittedly can devolve into WIFOM) if he was scum, but FOS betiko.

I did go back and read more than just that. Witt has said that several time in the last few game days, I can go grab them if you really wish.

[rishaed]

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

betiko is jumping all over the place. edoc didn't say anything that wasn't obvious from reading Little Witt's post, but apparently it was enough to convince betiko to change his vote.

The only reason I'm not voting betiko at this point is that I think he's too experienced to just blatantly put himself out there like this (which admittedly can devolve into WIFOM) if he was scum, but FOS betiko.

It has been obvious though, he says he's been busy, been grounded, and when he does come in and post, all he says is sorry for the inactivity, I'll try to catch up and post something meaningful, which admittedly has been a little hard right now. I know this goes into a WIFOM argument, but there has been things he can throw his opinion to. In RL how I play is different than on CC, but that's because in Forums, posting activity is extremely important for everyone. You see a thread die because people read it and don't post anything. I am guilty of not posting anything of substance lately though. I must say that I haven't found a case strong enough through my rereads that I would be willing to post it. Which seems to be true of a lot of ppl right now. So I am willing to play to a vote the inactive case no matter what flak i get from it later. vote Witt. It might bring some life back into this thread.

[Metsfanmax]

there he is!!!

hum I guess you have a point with the fact that little witt has deliberately said he is reading but not posting on purpose. I think we need a claim or 2 today, and I guess this will force him to start posting.

unvote vote little witt

betiko is jumping all over the place. edoc didn't say anything that wasn't obvious from reading Little Witt's post, but apparently it was enough to convince betiko to change his vote.

The only reason I'm not voting betiko at this point is that I think he's too experienced to just blatantly put himself out there like this (which admittedly can devolve into WIFOM) if he was scum, but FOS betiko.

It has been obvious though, he says he's been busy, been grounded, and when he does come in and post, all he says is sorry for the inactivity, I'll try to catch up and post something meaningful, which admittedly has been a little hard right now. I know this goes into a WIFOM argument, but there has been things he can throw his opinion to. In RL how I play is different than on CC, but that's because in Forums, posting activity is extremely important for everyone. You see a thread die because people read it and don't post anything. I am guilty of not posting anything of substance lately though. I must say that I haven't found a case strong enough through my rereads that I would be willing to post it. Which seems to be true of a lot of ppl right now. So I am willing to play to a vote the inactive case no matter what flak i get from it later. vote Witt. It might bring some life back into this thread.

Let's not pretend that this will generate meaningful activity. We form up a wagon on the inactive, he claims, probably VT or something else meaningless, and then we're back to square one. We either lynch him or we don't, and we have more information but it's unlikely to meaningfully advance the state of the game. People still won't really know what to do with their night actions, etc.

I'm fine with voting an inactive simply because there's nothing else to do, but I don't think that's the case here, given the "case" against you and my suspicions of betiko.