F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

[Arama86n]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=188805
TOFU vs AFOS 42-18, TOFU wins.
(Last game just finished.)

[Dako]

Just in time ;).

[benga]

[CC4] OSA vs SOH 22-19 (41) - Final 7/27

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 2&t=190568

[Genoke]

i don't think it was mentioned before
[CC4] FALL vs ATL 19 - 22 final score. ATL wins.

[IcePack]

Just wondering if Lindax's tournament counts in the F400 Rankings? I just am not fully sure b/c of the 1 v 1 components and the weighted scoring system. But, I figure that stuff may get ignored and the rest of the team games may be counted? Yay or nay?

I posted in that thread it likely wouldn't count towards F400. Lindax didn't mind. (this was during set up / discussion and sign ups).
I would have to review it now that it's started to see what the final layout of tournament is
IE: I'll get back to you (tomorrow).

The F400 will get updated (along with all war info, my apologies) tomorrow (Wednesday).

I'll be lowering my personal game count quite a bit over the next few weeks to give me more time to spend on non game activity such as F400, mod etc. This should help address some of my time constraints in "crunch" times.

IcePack

Sounds good. I'm fine with it either way. But, I'd prefer to know for when I'm setting my line-ups.

I'm not entirely sure I follow the set up. The weighted thing doesn't matter i can take game results, but can someone explain how many games of each game type is involved? (1 vs 1, d, t, q etc.)

A more simple breakdown of the tournament would help me determine whether i can include the results.

[Lindax]

Just wondering if Lindax's tournament counts in the F400 Rankings? I just am not fully sure b/c of the 1 v 1 components and the weighted scoring system. But, I figure that stuff may get ignored and the rest of the team games may be counted? Yay or nay?

I posted in that thread it likely wouldn't count towards F400. Lindax didn't mind. (this was during set up / discussion and sign ups).
I would have to review it now that it's started to see what the final layout of tournament is
IE: I'll get back to you (tomorrow).

The F400 will get updated (along with all war info, my apologies) tomorrow (Wednesday).

I'll be lowering my personal game count quite a bit over the next few weeks to give me more time to spend on non game activity such as F400, mod etc. This should help address some of my time constraints in "crunch" times.

IcePack

Sounds good. I'm fine with it either way. But, I'd prefer to know for when I'm setting my line-ups.

I'm not entirely sure I follow the set up. The weighted thing doesn't matter i can take game results, but can someone explain how many games of each game type is involved? (1 vs 1, d, t, q etc.)

A more simple breakdown of the tournament would help me determine whether i can include the results.

Per round there are 3 dubs. 3 trips and 3 quads.

There are also 3 home and 3 away games. The clans choose the game type, so they can be 1 v 1, dubs, trips or quads. So the amount of them will vary per match up....

Lx

[IcePack]

Just wondering if Lindax's tournament counts in the F400 Rankings? I just am not fully sure b/c of the 1 v 1 components and the weighted scoring system. But, I figure that stuff may get ignored and the rest of the team games may be counted? Yay or nay?

I posted in that thread it likely wouldn't count towards F400. Lindax didn't mind. (this was during set up / discussion and sign ups).
I would have to review it now that it's started to see what the final layout of tournament is
IE: I'll get back to you (tomorrow).

The F400 will get updated (along with all war info, my apologies) tomorrow (Wednesday).

I'll be lowering my personal game count quite a bit over the next few weeks to give me more time to spend on non game activity such as F400, mod etc. This should help address some of my time constraints in "crunch" times.

IcePack

Sounds good. I'm fine with it either way. But, I'd prefer to know for when I'm setting my line-ups.

I'm not entirely sure I follow the set up. The weighted thing doesn't matter i can take game results, but can someone explain how many games of each game type is involved? (1 vs 1, d, t, q etc.)

A more simple breakdown of the tournament would help me determine whether i can include the results.

Per round there are 3 dubs. 3 trips and 3 quads.

There are also 3 home and 3 away games. The clans choose the game type, so they can be 1 v 1, dubs, trips or quads. So the amount of them will vary per match up....

Lx

So if i understand correctly:

Clan A: 3 d 3 t 3 q + 3 optional
Clan B: 3 d 3 t 3 q + 3 optional

It looks like it has enough games to qualify as a match up (min 12), while it does have some 1 vs 1 which i know has had a strong feelings towards NOT being included in F400. Even at max if everyone used 1 vs 1 it would be 25% max of the games. I'm willing to hear peoples thoughts on the inclusion or not.

The other issue would be whether or not Lindax is willing to track his event for F400 purposes, like qwert and benga do for theirs. He'd need to keep track of score, date of match completion / last game for each clan match up as the event organizer.

So once Lindax weighs in on being willing or not to do so, then we can begin discussion on whether or not to include the results.

IcePack

[Swifte]

I don't think you've got that correct. There are 3 d, 3 t, 3 q, which were all picked by lindax, and then 3 home for clan a, and 3 away for team b. 15 games total, not 24. Sounds like it still meets the min requirements though..

[IcePack]

I don't think you've got that correct. There are 3 d, 3 t, 3 q, which were all picked by lindax, and then 3 home for clan a, and 3 away for team b. 15 games total, not 24. Sounds like it still meets the min requirements though..

If that's the case, then the max 1 vs 1 is 40% which is quite a bit higher.

[patrickaa317]

I don't think you've got that correct. There are 3 d, 3 t, 3 q, which were all picked by lindax, and then 3 home for clan a, and 3 away for team b. 15 games total, not 24. Sounds like it still meets the min requirements though..

If that's the case, then the max 1 vs 1 is 40% which is quite a bit higher.

Maybe Lindax can run some stats to provide how much 1v1 is actually used in this event? Even though max is 40%, if only used 10% of the time, I'd be fine with it being included. But if all clans use this option a lot for this event, then I say no need to be in the F400.

[ViperOverLord]

If 1 v 1 is an issue and there is enough games w/o 1 v 1 then why even include any of them in the data?

[ViperOverLord]

The LX tournament should not count in the F400 ranking b/c another irregularity that is occurring is clan reps do not have the power to direct invite players like in every other clan competition.

[ViperOverLord]

As I just pm'd to Icepack:

Not having direct privileges is now severely affecting my ability to invite the players that I want to invite. My players who are used to 24 hour invites, may gloss over PM's etc and then I'm forced to use a lesser player or potentially forfeit a game(s) b/c of the irregularity in the system.

I had read that Lindax would create games. But nowhere in the description did it say that a clan rep would not get privileges to direct invite like in every other clan competition.

[Chariot of Fire]

If 1 v 1 is an issue and there is enough games w/o 1 v 1 then why even include any of them in the data?

There is no guarantee that all of the fixtures meet the 'minimum of 12 games' criteria for inclusion in the F400. This is because there are only 9 games initially that do, to which are added 6 more games which are chosen from 1v1, doubs, trips & quads. So whilst some of the match-ups may meet the minimum of 12 team games, there is no certainty they all will. So for inclusion in the F400 someone would have to check which of the head-to-heads (15 games) had a minimum of 12 doubs/trips/quads.

That's how I see it anyway.

[ViperOverLord]

If 1 v 1 is an issue and there is enough games w/o 1 v 1 then why even include any of them in the data?

There is no guarantee that all of the fixtures meet the 'minimum of 12 games' criteria for inclusion in the F400. This is because there are only 9 games initially that do, to which are added 6 more games which are chosen from 1v1, doubs, trips & quads. So whilst some of the match-ups may meet the minimum of 12 team games, there is no certainty they all will. So for inclusion in the F400 someone would have to check which of the head-to-heads (15 games) had a minimum of 12 doubs/trips/quads.

That's how I see it anyway.

This may be a moot point. I don't see anyway that the LX tourney gets counted at this point. There's too many irregularities for it to be counted IMO. We weren't informed that we would not have privileges to direct invite when when we agreed to the 96 hour time frame. Furthermore, Lindax refused to even send invites on our behalf. This is especially peculiar when one considers that he is strictly enforcing his forfeiture policy.

And last round, when Lindax was informed of this issue, he made no effort to request privileges (even though the omission is on his end). Nor, did he bother to give notice to the clans, who were competing in the next round, that they would need to be prepared to use his less efficient (non-standard) system.

Also, IMO. It should be concluded in advance of such a competition if the results (and what amount of results) should be included in the F400. I don't believe that Lindax took full care to compensate for that reality. Though, he may have had a justifiable blind spot as it is not his responsibility to directly regard the rankings. Though, it would have certainly been advisable.

[Doc_Brown]

My feeling is that if some of the matches from the tournament will not count in the rankings than none of them should.

[IcePack]

My feeling is that if some of the matches from the tournament will not count in the rankings than none of them should.

I believe I'm of the same mindset. We need 12 qualified games in order to be included in the match ups. I'm not comfortable including half of the results that have 12, and another half that dont. So right now, I'm leaning towards not including them into the F400 due to the event set up. But, I'm still open to listening to arguments either way.

IcePack

[ViperOverLord]

My feeling is that if some of the matches from the tournament will not count in the rankings than none of them should.

I believe I'm of the same mindset. We need 12 qualified games in order to be included in the match ups. I'm not comfortable including half of the results that have 12, and another half that dont. So right now, I'm leaning towards not including them into the F400 due to the event set up. But, I'm still open to listening to arguments either way.

IcePack

Well, at this point, my clan is either not going to fill games or have games forfeit b/c it was not clear how games would be filled. I don't know why it should count if there's this discrepancy? Can you explain that to me?

[ViperOverLord]

I'm starting to see a MAJOR BLIND SPOT in the F400. All clans should know what competitions count for the F400 in advance of a competition. Right now, I'm looking for answers and the answer is it's up for debate?

[ViperOverLord]

Okay I've pm'd this about this further with IcePack and he was very helpful for the record. And my last post, which made somewhat in frustration, should be clarified. I'm fine with everything being up for debate. I actually love that aspect. I think when everyone is included, the likelihood of a great system is maximized. Here's the one thing I would like to see changed in the future though:

I think that clans should know in advance whether a match-up counts. When people play sporting events, they don't decide after the fact whether it's official or exhibition.

[Chariot of Fire]

I think you're quite right mate. For me - and I expect countless others - the F400 by IcePack is the one genuine, flawless system we have for computation of rankings. There should be no element of 'maybe' involved, nor should decisions lie at the discretion of one individual. "Oh hey, our clan has just done really well in this tourney. Maybe we can include the results in the F400?" A question such as this should never be posed, and IcePack should never have to be in a position to decide.

Strict ground rules for qualification, ascertained prior to the tourney commencing. Simple.

[IcePack]

Well, 3 things:

1) my crazy life has settled down. I'm back Full time
2) F400 will be posted tomorrow, the Lindax tournament issues got me sidetracked and couldn't complete it tonight.
3) I agree, I've tried making an effort to ensure event organizers were on board before hand and announcing event decisions. This participate one was missed, and I'll review and get back ASAP once Lindax lets me know whether or not he's willign to track that info. In the meantime, everyones free to make commentary on the issue of what they think about the possibility of adding minor to significant amounts of 1 vs 1 in a event that isn't fixed structure like most other clans are.

As mentioned prior to VOL in PM, there are policys for regular clan wars / events already in place. Most events have fixed structure in nature, so this one a little unique which hasn't quite been addressed by the clan community. But in general, i completely agree moving forward these "grey area" event should be addressed and each event announced whether its being included ongoing in the future.

I'll comment more in the morning.

IcePack

[josko.ri]

Reading all this, I am just wondering how ACC results are included, because they consist of some sets of 1v1 matches. I can think of 2 possibilities how ACC results can be included, I am wondering which one is correct, and is IcePack aware of this issue?

1. Full result of a match is included. That means that ACC 1v1 matches also enters into ranking.
2. Here is included final result excluding 1v1 matches. In that case it can happen that the clan who won war in ACC will lose war in F400.

[IcePack]

Reading all this, I am just wondering how ACC results are included, because they consist of some sets of 1v1 matches. I can think of 2 possibilities how ACC results can be included, I am wondering which one is correct, and is IcePack aware of this issue?

1. Full result of a match is included. That means that ACC 1v1 matches also enters into ranking.
2. Here is included final result excluding 1v1 matches. In that case it can happen that the clan who won war in ACC will lose war in F400.

Some analysis / comparison were done previous to my taking over F400. It was decided that the results would be divided by 50% in F400, and that the actual results were very similar to what it would be if all the time had been spent going through the games.

Since this policy was used in all previous ACC, when I took over I continued what had been decided in the past. As it would be calcd one way for past and another for future, not giving the same info. And if it was ever something I was able to tackle, makes it more complicated for me to untangle and redo if I switched halfway thru.

Going back roughly 1 year ago: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... k#p3897318

IcePack

[Qwert]

well this its how i see this:
When i start preparation for CL5, i have many discusion abouth all part of competitions, and this also include F400. Ofcourse this could not be discused withouth Icepack. So after some discusion, we came to conclusion that Scores in Cl5 will be count combined for F400 (to be eligibile for counting).In Cl5 match betwene clans count separate( home -one match---away-one match), and for F400 together(home-away one match), and this give 16 clan game chalenges.
Also i take full responsibilities to all scores will be add to Topic, specialy open for this purposes.

I think that for all mini clan tournaments, organiser need to talk with icepack, to see how they need to create format of tournaments to be eligibile for F400. And its will be good if Organisers track all this and post to icepack.
Now in this case, if organiser dont want to make discusion with icepack,,and dont want to track results,, then its probably best that this tournament will not be included in f400.