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If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

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If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:08 pm

Ok, I'm done with all you artards saying that the dice aren't random.

I want to hear from specific people, mostly the people who can't stop BITCHING about the dice, on why they think the dice aren't random.

GO!
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:12 pm

Well, if you want to get really, really technical....
They are an algorythm that is far closer to random than any real dice by many magnitudes, but still not strictly and absolutely random in the mathematical sense. However, since they are so much more random than real dice, the real issue is that people would rather believe that the dice are to blame for losses, not any skill lack on their part

Mostly, people just don't understand that "random" is not the same as "equal".... not by a long shot.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby jpcloet on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:12 pm

Technically they are Pseudo-Random.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby The Neon Peon on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:13 pm

OMG! I just lose like SO many attacks in a row. This is BS!

The dice can't be random. If they were random, they would never be that good or bad because the randomness would keep them just where they should statistically be!

I'm so sick and tired of this crap. I can't win any games at all. GAH! If lack doesn't fix these dice I'm going to quit CC.

This one time, my opponent rolled 8 6s in a row!!! This is absolutely impossible! That crap should never happen with random dice. How can you people not get it?

:o :o :o
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:17 pm

And, another thing I can't understand is why:
natty_dread wrote:Computer algorithms cannot produce real randomness.


I mean, I can plug type some stuff on my calculator and it will choose 3 random numbers between 1 and 6 and then 2 random numbers between 1 and 6. Why can't this do the same?
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:08 am

I mean, I can plug type some stuff on my calculator and it will choose 3 random numbers between 1 and 6 and then 2 random numbers between 1 and 6. Why can't this do the same?


The numbers chosen by your calculator are not actually random. They are generated by an algorithm that uses the internal clock as a seed to generate a fractal number and then uses that fractal number to represent random numbers. However this is not real random, although to most practical applications it is close enough.

However, random.org which CC also uses, does not use computer algorithms to generate random numbers, instead it picks up static noise from background radiation, runs it through an ADC (analog-digital-converter) and samples it at whatever bitrate, thus giving an endless stream of truly random 1:s and 0:s.

One can always argue that nothing in this universe is truly random, but then we're getting more into the realms of philosophy.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:23 pm

You forget that it subrtracts 1 from each red dice for every time the attacker starts a "crappy dice" thread.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby iamkoolerthanu on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:27 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:OMG! I just lose like SO many attacks in a row. This is BS!

The dice can't be random. If they were random, they would never be that good or bad because the randomness would keep them just where they should statistically be!

I'm so sick and tired of this crap. I can't win any games at all. GAH! If lack doesn't fix these dice I'm going to quit CC.

This one time, my opponent rolled 8 6s in a row!!! This is absolutely impossible! That crap should never happen with random dice. How can you people not get it?

:o :o :o


Sure, the chances might be incredibly unlikely, but randomness doesn't prevent it, and unlikely doesn't mean impossible..
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby jefjef on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:51 pm

SEE the dice are random! The bottom left 3 are my attacker dice. The rest are defender.

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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Woodruff on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:02 pm

natty_dread wrote:
I mean, I can plug type some stuff on my calculator and it will choose 3 random numbers between 1 and 6 and then 2 random numbers between 1 and 6. Why can't this do the same?


The numbers chosen by your calculator are not actually random. They are generated by an algorithm that uses the internal clock as a seed to generate a fractal number and then uses that fractal number to represent random numbers. However this is not real random, although to most practical applications it is close enough.

However, random.org which CC also uses, does not use computer algorithms to generate random numbers, instead it picks up static noise from background radiation, runs it through an ADC (analog-digital-converter) and samples it at whatever bitrate, thus giving an endless stream of truly random 1:s and 0:s.

One can always argue that nothing in this universe is truly random, but then we're getting more into the realms of philosophy.


Correct. In fact, computers themselves are largely unable to select "true random" because they must depend on another criteria as their basis, whether that is an internal clock, atmospheric data, or some other "seeding method". You must remember that computers themselves only REALLY know what 0 and 1 are.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby jefjef on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:05 pm

Woodruff wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
I mean, I can plug type some stuff on my calculator and it will choose 3 random numbers between 1 and 6 and then 2 random numbers between 1 and 6. Why can't this do the same?


The numbers chosen by your calculator are not actually random. They are generated by an algorithm that uses the internal clock as a seed to generate a fractal number and then uses that fractal number to represent random numbers. However this is not real random, although to most practical applications it is close enough.

However, random.org which CC also uses, does not use computer algorithms to generate random numbers, instead it picks up static noise from background radiation, runs it through an ADC (analog-digital-converter) and samples it at whatever bitrate, thus giving an endless stream of truly random 1:s and 0:s.

One can always argue that nothing in this universe is truly random, but then we're getting more into the realms of philosophy.


Correct. In fact, computers themselves are largely unable to select "true random" because they must depend on another criteria as their basis, whether that is an internal clock, atmospheric data, or some other "seeding method". You must remember that computers themselves only REALLY know what 0 and 1 are.


Well the dice computer also knows when your trying to bust a bonus or kill that 12th tert.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:07 pm

You must remember that computers themselves only REALLY know what 0 and 1 are.


To be fair, some computers also know 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby shadistic on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:19 pm

natty_dread wrote:One can always argue that nothing in this universe is truly random, but then we're getting more into the realms of philosophy.


Ever heard of the Uncertainty principle?
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Woodruff on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:13 pm

natty_dread wrote:
You must remember that computers themselves only REALLY know what 0 and 1 are.


To be fair, some computers also know 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer


I'll be damned...I have never heard of this. Thanks for the link!

shadistic wrote:
natty_dread wrote:One can always argue that nothing in this universe is truly random, but then we're getting more into the realms of philosophy.


Ever heard of the Uncertainty principle?


Are you referring to Heisenberg's?
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Army of GOD on Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:11 am

Seriously though, for a mere untaxed $100,000 under the table, I'd be willing to do all the rolls myself and then send my results in to the website.




Oh, and free ninjutsu lessons from lack.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby Sackett58 on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:07 am

Years ago I remember playing Risk on the board and my friend holding off a 8 vs 1. He was just one of those guys who was lucky with rolling dice on a board game. So it didn't really bother me when I lost a 9 vs 1 some time ago here.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:38 am

IF the dice/intensity cubes are not random---the only logical conclusion is that they are sentient beings. How else could we explain their brash, unabashed, and often volatile mercuriality? This must be the answer we've long been long looking for...


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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby thebest712 on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:45 am

I don't believe the auto assult dice is random but the other is close to random I think
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby pimpdave on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:49 am

They are possessed.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby donkeymile on Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:19 pm

You might be on to something about those auto-assaults not being random. Maybe I'll try and avoid that and see if my analyzer actually proves the dice are where they should be. In the past the analyzer showed that the dice were NOT where they should statistically be - but I WAS using auto a lot.
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby iamkoolerthanu on Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:04 pm

I am in a game where I single attacked an 8 when I had about 30, I came out with 9... but there are also games where I will have 3 and attack a 5 and win... so the dice can be in your favor at times.. but one thing I always remember, is if I lose a 10v1, it could happen to my opponent too..
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby TheTrueNorth on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:27 am

2934 points on Monday, July 20 2009
1480 points on Saturday, January 30 2010

so either I grew extremely stupid over the Autumn last year or the dice have been ridiculous.
during the recent wave I can remember dozens of times where a double number attacks a single number with not wining.
since I've been here I've notice how the dice will go through cycles, good or bad, but when this cycle starts 8 months ago , with no end in sight, it's more than obvious that they're not as random as some of you would have us believe.
my membership is due this spring, I doubt very much that it will be renewed
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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:27 am

Hm, so you played as a Premium for a year, 2008-2009, without issue, and now (2009-2010) the intensity cube gods have started to wreak havoc?


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Re: If the dice aren't random, then what ARE they?

Postby TheTrueNorth on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:06 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Hm, so you played as a Premium for a year, 2008-2009, without issue, and now (2009-2010) the intensity cube gods have started to wreak havoc?


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with no end in sight
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