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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:57 pm

plurple wrote:I haven't added the new xml as is only 1 line added and is a very small change that is unlikely to matter as you need to own all 22 regions around seas to get 1 more troop from the aquatic bonus :)

i'm impressed, plurple!

Sirius Kase wrote: Wizard is far and away the best.

i'm wondering whether this is still true and, if so, about the effectiveness of rebalancing the map by adjusting only the starting neutrals.

Donelladan wrote:Dwellers sucks because the bonus doesn't work properly ( at least last time I tried ) but otherwise it's 2nd best bonus. Could be almost as good as wizards if you fixed it.

what was wrong with the dwellers bonus?

ian. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby plurple on Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:39 pm

I am pretty sure the dwellers issue may have been fixed in Dolomites last fix :)

The reason wizard is so strong is that it gives a very quick way of getting around the map same with the dwellers. But the dwellers bonus is capped at 6 and 2 of which you need to hold all 4 regions for. while the wizard one everyone can instantly get access to and can then hop around the middle of the map. In regards to adding to the neutrals do you mean upping the neutral 3's around the towers? to 4, 5? I guess that would help.

I also think someone suggested auto deploys on the home regions which I think would be great addition as getting kicked off the map early can lead to a long inevitable loss but don't think we can add that without adding the information to the map.

other than that I think the map is great fun :D

iancanton wrote:
plurple wrote:I haven't added the new xml as is only 1 line added and is a very small change that is unlikely to matter as you need to own all 22 regions around seas to get 1 more troop from the aquatic bonus :)


i'm impressed, plurple!


Thanks :oops:

let me know what changes you want and I can get you the xml file :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Donelladan on Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:01 pm

From what I've tested everything works fine.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:21 pm

whenever someone is eliminated, the game log reads that he or she no longer holds Only Special Features. the no longer holds text is part of the losing condition. how can we improve the Only Special Features part of the wording to say what it actually means?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby MichelSableheart on Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:36 am

In that sentence, I would word it as no longer holds territories other than special features, but I don't know where that wording would further be used, and what its impact there would be.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:28 pm

a bonus that's currently called Only Special Features gives no extra troops, but it must be held to stay alive.

since there are three types of region (territories, kingdoms and special features), no longer holds regions other than special features will work.

from examining the results of a few games, it seems that wizards is good, but certainly does not always win, while barbarians often has a difficult time.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby plurple on Wed Apr 12, 2023 7:32 pm

iancanton wrote: no longer holds regions other than special features will work.


feel like no longer holds A Non Special Feature Region reads better in the losing condition and as the bonus A Non Special Feature Region

Any other changes wanted for the xml?

Do you want to change the neutrals around the blood towers?

Any auto deploy on the starting regions?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:29 pm

plurple wrote:feel like no longer holds A Non Special Feature Region reads better in the losing condition and as the bonus A Non Special Feature Region

sounds good. i prefer the A to be an a, but i'll leave that up to u.

plurple wrote:Any other changes wanted for the xml?

i'll do some more research this weekend.

plurple wrote:Do you want to change the neutrals around the blood towers?

i think wizards is not spectacularly unbalanced, so no.

plurple wrote:Any auto deploy on the starting regions?

not at this stage, since it'll involve artistic changes.

ian. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby plurple on Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:57 pm

ok thanks will hold off posting the xml in case any other minor corrections are needed :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:29 pm

i analysed 25 completed standard, 2-player, auto-placement, sequential, escalating, chained, fog, non-trench games, from Game 15194458 to Game 17476903.

in fog games, we know the three special features of the winner, but must glean what data we can about the loser from the game log. if such data sheds no further light on the loser, then we can impute 3/8 of a loss to each of the special features that the winner does not have.

using this method, best were fanatics (+7) and demonic (+5), while barbarians was worst (-5) and wizards was surprisingly worse than average (-2).

on this limited evidence, the only other change i'd currently recommend making to the xml is to reduce the horde starting neutral from n5 to n4.


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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby plurple on Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:57 pm

ok Ian here is the xml file with the 3 small changes:

-fixed the aquatic bonus to give the correct number if you have all regions surrounding all lakes
-fixed the name of the losing condition bonus
-changed the horde starting neutral to 4

KKFinal308.xml
(70.88 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:38 pm

that's great, plurple, i'll check the changes and load the file to the beta site.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby MichelSableheart on Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:42 am

Does that mean that this map will be finally coming out of beta? ;p
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:31 pm

does this mean that u're volunteering to test the new version that's on the beta site?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby MichelSableheart on Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:52 am

If there is any chance of that actually leading to a map going out of beta, I would consider it. But as it is, I haven't seen any evidence that maps can actually go out of beta, and my repeated requests to know what is needed to make that happen have been met with a wall of silence, so I don't see why I should waste my time.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby DearCyrus on Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:24 pm

Seriously. I have been away from the site for nearly a decade due to life reasons... I was shocked to see this still in Beta. Such a great and unique map. The fact that it hasn't made it out of Beta makes me doubt my thoughts of reviving my Abandoned map idea.

Which is a shame.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 01, 2023 12:01 pm

MichelSableheart wrote:If there is any chance of that actually leading to a map going out of beta, I would consider it. But as it is, I haven't seen any evidence that maps can actually go out of beta, and my repeated requests to know what is needed to make that happen have been met with a wall of silence, so I don't see why I should waste my time.

Three things, basically have to happen.

There has to be some kind of general consensus that the map is playable and balanced.

It has to get iancanton's blessing.

It has to get bigWham's blessing.


The Beta team's input is considered at all three of these steps, so participating in Beta does help.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby MichelSableheart on Tue May 02, 2023 12:49 am

Dukasaur wrote:
MichelSableheart wrote:If there is any chance of that actually leading to a map going out of beta, I would consider it. But as it is, I haven't seen any evidence that maps can actually go out of beta, and my repeated requests to know what is needed to make that happen have been met with a wall of silence, so I don't see why I should waste my time.

Three things, basically have to happen.

There has to be some kind of general consensus that the map is playable and balanced.

It has to get iancanton's blessing.

It has to get bigWham's blessing.


The Beta team's input is considered at all three of these steps, so participating in Beta does help.
Thank you for replying, this description of the general process helps a lot.

I was looking for a bit more specific information, though. Given this process, I would assume that if a map has been in beta for ~half a year and hasn't been quenched, one of three things must be true:
Either there isn't general consensus, in which case there would be heavy discussion in the map thread about where the debate lies,
or iancanton hasn't given his blessing, in which case I would expect a post in the map thread clearly explaining what needs to be fixed in his opinion,
or bigWham hasn't given his blessing, in which case I again would expect clear directions on what needs to be fixed.

Instead, what we see is that a map sits in beta for 4 years with no activity in the forum. No problems are reported, no communication from either iancanton or bigWham, and no quench. So I'm trying to learn which of those steps each map is on, and what the problems are with moving it through that step.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Mon May 08, 2023 6:03 pm

on the beta site, we have confirmation in one game that horde starts with n4 neutrals instead of n5 and the barbarians player won.

in that game, the losing message was no longer holds A Non Special Feature Region, which is an improvement on no longer holds Only Special Features, as the latter is false.

ian. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:54 pm

plurple wrote:Ok I have had a look at the xml and all of the bonuses on the bonus logic are all correct except for the aquatic bonus:
giving a max of 10 when you should be able to get 11 when you have all 22 sea adjacent territories.

in one game on the beta site, my bonus for holding 22 coastal regions read iancanton received 11 troops for holding Aquatic - Adjacent to Seas, so the KKFinal308 xml appears to work as intended.

once a few more satisfactory games have finished, we can push the new xml to the live site.

ian. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Fuchsia tude on Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:32 am

iancanton wrote:does this mean that u're volunteering to test the new version that's on the beta site?

ian. :)

Is this tourney still happening?

And if anyone wants to test the new XML for this map outside of that, I'm in a couple waiting games on the Beta site.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Fuchsia tude on Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:42 pm

iancanton wrote:
plurple wrote:Any auto deploy on the starting regions?

not at this stage, since it'll involve artistic changes.

ian. :)


Here you go, artistic changes.

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I fixed the typo "you Kingdom may assault" while I was at it.

I can't guarantee how long imgur will keep these images around though
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iancanton on Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:16 pm

on the beta site, the KKFinal308 xml has survived five standard, 2-player, auto-placement, sequential, escalating, chained, fog, non-trench mini-tournament games plus various others. no xml faults were evident.

in fog games, we know the three special features of the winner, but must glean what data we can about the loser from the game log. if such data sheds no further light on the loser, then we can impute 3/8 of a loss to each of the special features that the winner does not have.

although we cannot draw firm conclusions from the five mini-tournament games, best were dwellers (+4), undead (+2) and wizards (+2), while aquatic, barbarians, fanatics and miners were worst (-2), with a big caveat being that the game data on the beta site is often overwritten in part or in full, so that it's unreliable. what we can say is that the change in the horde starting neutral from n5 to n4 did not give a big advantage to barbarians. we already knew the other two xml changes to be satisfactory.

ian. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby MichelSableheart on Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:38 am

thank you for this update, that's positive news
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - 308

Postby iancanton on Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:06 am

no games are currently in progress and kkfinal308 xml is loaded!

changes coded by plurple are a clearer game-end message when losing conditions are satisfied, correction of the aquatic bonus and n4 horde starting neutrals instead of n5.

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