Should people be allowed to have guns?

[strike wolf]

that's already a truth aka we're not allowed to own machine guns. Though if you are talking about a shotgun being banned from anyone who doesn't hunt I can't find anything wrong with that at least nothing major.

[hendy]

I voted yes but utafar probably voted no cuz he has been shot so many times

[owheelj]

gud point besides if there were no guns they would just use an alternative weapon for killing.

Knives, swords, arrows, clubs, axes...you'd be surprised at the lengths some people will go to.

Oh my god that's so retarded

EVERY COUNTRY HAS THOSE THINGS

Sweden doesn't have 30,000 deaths a year from knives! England doesn't lose 80 people a day to fucking swords!

30,000 AMERICANS A YEAR DIE BECAUSE YOU LET EACH OTHER OWN GUNS.

While I'm stronly opposed to guns and think that the world would definitely be a better place without them, I think that's a bit of a misleading statement. The US has a population over 200,000,000 while Sweden has a population of around 9,000,000. I don't know what the rate of deaths is but I think that would be a much more telling statistic than how many people die. I'm fairly sure that societies with stronger gun control have less violent deaths than countries with less gun control but a higher rate of assualt. So in Australia for example you are much less likely to be killed in a violent manner than in the US, but you're more likely to be punched at a pub. Personally I find this to be an acceptable trade - I would rather be punched at a pub then be shot and killed.

While the arguement about self protection and "good people having guns" is a strong one, I think it's pretty clear that if you look at society and the statistics there is a fairly direct relationship between the likelyhood for somebody to be shot and the ammount of guns in society. Yes if somebody with a gun did come to your house and you didn't have one you would be in trouble - but it's much less likely for that to happen if there is stronger gun control. I think if we try to be realistic instead of idealistic there can be little doubt from the evidence that gun control is in the best interests of society.

[strike wolf]

Placing new laws in to make gun control better won't have the same effect as it does in other countries with better gun control laws. It might even have similar effect to the laws passed by great britian to the american colonies back in the 1700s. I'm not saying there will be a revolution but there will be riots.

[owheelj]

Well in 1996 Australia drastically increased our gun control laws and there were no riots and violent murders have decreased. The government allowed people to turn in their illegal guns and paid them full price for the gun, regardless of condition (they were all destroyed anyway).

[strike wolf]

I'm surprised by all the improvements that Australia's had though. They went from a colony composed of British criminals (no offense) to a fairly-well mannered nation.

[owheelj]

Oh lol.

I guess when you compare us to the US...

[Kegler]

guns dont kill people...gangs kill people. If cops can carry guns then we need guns too.

Do cops REALLY need to have guns??? Or is that a line of BS the American police have sold us for years to further the police state. I always thought that that the run of the mill English cops don’t carry guns. If that is true why do American cops have to carry guns everywhere they go? On the other hand if America is really a terribly dangerous place where cops have to carry guns then why are their so many laws limiting where honest ethical law abiding citizens CAN’T carry guns? Citizens can’t take guns into schools, libraries, and other government buildings but cops can. If the World is such a dangerous place normal citizens should be allowed to take their guns into these places.

[P Gizzle]

here's what i think...if you guys even care

the 2nd amendment allows us US citizens to have guns to protect ourselves with. yes, psychos kill people. now, do you truly think psychos woudn't go around bludgeoning people with aluminum baseball bats? so, if we out lawed guns, we get beat to death. Bottom line, America is a violent country. why compromise my safety to make people outside of the US happy?

[thephule77]

Yes it is true that outlawing guns would probably make the death rate go down. But, you wouldn't be able to see a signicant improvement for years. The criminals aren't going to turn in their guns when they're illigalized. It would take years for police to find even a good percentage of the guns. And while they're trying to find the guns, crime will go up because the criminals know that now they have guns, but the civilians don't.

You also have to look at the US as a whole. Other countries have strickter gun laws and have less deaths. America has stricker drug laws, but has more drug problems than the rest of the world. When you look at it, laws work better in other countries. Making guns illegal won't stop people from getting new ones from Mexico or South American countries. The guns will come with the drugs.

[P Gizzle]

here's what i think...if you guys even care

the 2nd amendment allows us US citizens to have guns to protect ourselves with. yes, psychos kill people. now, do you truly think psychos woudn't go around bludgeoning people with aluminum baseball bats? so, if we out lawed guns, we get beat to death. Bottom line, America is a violent country. why compromise my safety to make people outside of the US happy?

i agree. i quoted what i think

[Spuzzell]

Well, I got really frustrated by Owl's blind stupidity and refusal to accept facts or follow arguments and left this thread alone for ages (oh, and by the way, if he genuinely IS a lawyer I'll be amazed), and now I've read pretty much the whole thing again and I've reached one conclusion.

People arguing in favour of guns are idiots. Almost without exception. Uncivilized, backwards, paranoid idiots.

How they can't follow this line of reasoning; Less guns in society = less deaths in society; is totally beyond me, and leaves me gaping, open-mouthed, at my monitor.

The deeply held belief that Americans are naturally mentally more likely to kill than other nations, and that this is the reason for having the highest homicide rate in the first world (rather than simply having the most guns) is just so.. lame. Seriously. "Cain't blam us for killin', that just the way God made us! Hyuck hyuck." Shut the f*ck up and take responsibility for your actions.

Americans aren't special. Sorry. You're exactly the same as people in every other nation on the planet.. in fact, most Americans are just 2 or 3 generations away from BEING in another nation on the planet.

The reason more of you die every day than anywhere else in the first world is because you're too damn stupid to take guns out of the hands of everyone who absolutely does not REQUIRE them to do their job. That's it. Thats all there is to say.

And the line in the Constitution? It's an amendment. Write another one, take a step down the road to civilisation.

[KoolBak]

LOL!! So interesting for us "Uncivilized, backwards, paranoid idiots" to read up on how it should be.

Tell me my friend, how shall I vote, dress, love and worship? I cannot seem to figure anything out.....

*anxiously awaiting direction for my undefined, backwards existance....*

[Freetymes]

Try actually looking at the statistics instead of makeing decissions based on your emotions.

Since tight gun laws were enacted in England; It has seen a dramatic increase in gun and gang violence with honest people being prosicuted for trying to protect family and home.

The same goes for Canada.

When you outlaw honest people from having a way to protect themselves than you create safe zones for the criminals.

In virtually all of the 30 some states in the US that have legalized "Shall issue" concealed carry permits the violent crime rate has decreased by double digit percentages, in every circumstance. And it did not take years to show either. There have been no "Gunfights in the street" and in Michigan (where I live and know the facts for sure), since inception (6+ years) there has not been a single case of a licensed person illegally shooting anyone and there are literally hundreds of cases where crime was thwarted by license holders. In many cases without a shot being fired.

Laws of prohibition have never worked anywhere in the world, ever.

IMHO...Education, training, and actually enforcing the 100's of current gun laws would be a much better idea than trying to enforce the impossible.

[Freetymes]

me gaping, open-mouthed, at my monitor.

You are amazing in your ignorance! I hope you have learned to look at both sides of an argument by the time you are old enough to vote.

[KoolBak]

LOL! Nice posting Free....Interesting statistics...supports what I believed in my heart....

Interesting local story recently.....an armed intuder (crankster) broke into a lady's home to rob her and Gods know what else...she disarmed him and beat him to death with a hammer.

Maybe we should outlaw hammers too.....gape gape gape! ;o)

[P Gizzle]

LOL! Nice posting Free....Interesting statistics...supports what I believed in my heart....

Interesting local story recently.....an armed intuder (crankster) broke into a lady's home to rob her and Gods know what else...she disarmed him and beat him to death with a hammer.

Maybe we should outlaw hammers too.....gape gape gape! ;o)

we should outlaw baseball bats, bricks, knives, forks, straws (because they can be sharpened), pencils, and clothes hangers

[strike wolf]

You're calling us idiots? Read your facts little boy. Free said everything that needs to be said. If it happened in Europe I gaurrantee you it would happen here only on a larger scale.

Secondly, there is still reasons for guns to be in this country. common sense tells us that if there's a guy who is endangering your life or someone else's life and there is a pistol available, you'd use it to protect yourself or that of someone else. Now what do you do if there isn't a gun? Throw a rock? Also, if you live near the woods, you have to deal with wild animals all the time. From the rabid raccoon to the hungry black bear, a gun is necessary for protection.

P.S. I also like the point gizz brought up.

[P Gizzle]

You're calling us idiots? Read your facts little boy. Free said everything that needs to be said. If it happened in Europe I gaurrantee you it would happen here only on a larger scale.

Secondly, there is still reasons for guns to be in this country. common sense tells us that if there's a guy who is endangering your life or someone else's life and there is a pistol available, you'd use it to protect yourself or that of someone else. Now what do you do if there isn't a gun? Throw a rock? Also, if you live near the woods, you have to deal with wild animals all the time. From the rabid raccoon to the hungry black bear, a gun is necessary for protection.

P.S. I also like the point gizz brought up.

thank you. im "too american".

[DogDoc]

It seems that all of you are missing a big point behind this thread: the Second Amendment. When the Founding Fathers crafted the Bill of Rights, they did so to ensure that a tyrannical government would never again come to power. The Second Amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Gun control is an extremely bad idea for any democracy or republic and the Founding Fathers were wise enough to realize this.

Two films readily come to mind that really hammer home that point for me. One is "The Patriot," with Mel Gibson. When the British took Gibson's son prisoner, the first thing he did was arm all the children with his stock of firearms in the house. Although liberties were taken with actual history, the point was clear: had there been a stringent gun control policy, there would have been no American Revolution. Plain and simple.

The other film (don't laugh), is "Red Dawn," the story of a joint Soviet-Cuban invasion of the U.S. The first thing the Cuban commander did after the invasion was to gather all the Form 4473s which records the sales of firearms between dealers and private citizens. Knowing that armed citizens would be the first to mount a resistance, the commander orders the arrests of all those on record to have purchased a gun.

These may be dramatizations, however the points are well-taken. If a free society is to stay free, it must retain its right to defend itself from all invaders, foreign and domestic.

[Freetymes]

It seems that all of you are missing a big point behind this thread: the Second Amendment. When the Founding Fathers crafted the Bill of Rights, they did so to ensure that a tyrannical government would never again come to power. The Second Amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Gun control is an extremely bad idea for any democracy or republic and the Founding Fathers were wise enough to realize this.

I second this with all of my heart! Likely a better reason to own guns than the very good reason I stated earlier.

in fact, most Americans are just 2 or 3 generations away from BEING in another nation on the planet.

This is so true (well I am 6th generation but the point remains) and I find it interesting that all of these people came here to escape the intrusive argument and laws that you are championing Spuzzell. The founding fathers chose to pointedly write into the bill of rights all of the things that were not available in the cultures they came from. All for good reason. It seems to me that you indeed are the backwards one!

A government that does not fear it's citizens does not serve it's citizens...

The first world leader to completely outlaw private ownership of guns was Hitler... Hmmmm

[heavycola]

Gun control is an extremely bad idea for any democracy or republic

?? Why? The word 'Arms' covers everything - mortars, RPGs, rocket launchers, chemical weapons, nuclear bombs... is the control of these bad for democracy?

The UK (I am not bigging up my own country, but it is the place i have most experience of) has outlawed guns and gun deaths here are rare. They make the national papers, very often. I just want to understand why British democracy is suffering by not allowing its citizens to own guns. Explain pls.



And prohibition was in the constitution, wasn't it? how come you aren't defending that? Times change.

[DogDoc]

Gun control is an extremely bad idea for any democracy or republic
?? Why? The word 'Arms' covers everything - mortars, RPGs, rocket launchers, chemical weapons, nuclear bombs... is the control of these bad for democracy?

Come on, be serious. You know we're talking about personal firearms here.

The UK (I am not bigging up my own country, but it is the place i have most experience of) has outlawed guns and gun deaths here are rare. They make the national papers, very often. I just want to understand why British democracy is suffering by not allowing its citizens to own guns. Explain pls.

I'll try. Let me ask you this question: During World War II, had Operation Sealion taken place and England found itself swarming with German invaders at a time when a large part of the English army was fighting Rommel in North Africa and the defense of the homeland was literally in the hands of the citizens, would you say that British democracy would have suffered had there been stringent gun control laws at that time and no one owned personal firearms? I would say British democracy would have been in big trouble if the only ones who owned guns were the Germans. My point is that if a society is to remain free, it (society) must be given the right to defend itself.

You may not think that this could or would ever happen, but remember, everyone thought the same thing right after World War I. After all, that was the war that was to have ended all wars, yet less than 20 years later Europe was engulfed in another, more terrible war.

And prohibition was in the constitution, wasn't it? how come you aren't defending that? Times change.

Technically, Prohibition is not in the US Constitution. It was an AMENDMENT to the Constitution (the 18th, to be exact). Besides, it's apples and oranges. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here since you probably are not familiar with our constitution (lord knows I'm not with the Britons'). The Bill of Rights refer to the first ten amendments to the Constitution. These limit the powers of the federal government and reflect the foundation of American freedom. These are (or should be considered) inviolate. All other amendments after this reflect the fact that the American constitution is a living document and the Founding Fathers implemented a mechanism whereby the constitution could be changed to reflect the changing times. Even though it is VERY difficult to pass an amendment to the Constitution (as it should be), sometimes it happens and we screw up. We're far from perfect. In this case, it became very apparent Prohibition was a Bad Idea and it was appropriately repealed by the 21st Amendment.

If our government attempts to repeal any part of the Bill of Rights, ESPECIALLY the Second Amendment, it will mark a very dark day in our history and perhaps an end to the United States as we now know it.

[heavycola]

Thanks for the info on the constitution, DogDoc. I understand it now.

I still think my point about the word 'arms' is valid. A handgun is a handgun, a grenade is a grenade - they are both 'arms'. One kills one person at a time, the other a few. Why trust people with one and not the other?


I pay a huge chunk of taxes towards the defence of my country. I do not want it entrusted to a group of gun nuts. Presumably when the UK is attacked again it will be an army; i believe our state army will do a much better job.

Bottom line - Guns kill thousands of people every year in the US and to me that seems terribly wrong; and not every gun owner is a responsible adult. But I can appreciate that this issue is enshrined in yoru constitution and therefore is embedded in the national psyche in a way I will never really fathom. But I DO feel safer living over here, both for myself and my family, and i think the statistics give me good reason to do so.

[KoolBak]

Quick note - GUNS do not kill anyone; PEOPLE with guns kill.....As I pointed out earlier, they also kill with hammers and all sorts of other handy implements......

*lists self as official Gun Nut*