Continuation of Christianity debate.

[heavycola]

I have seen 3 different legs grow out

Sorry to pick this out dude - I did read and enjoy the rest of your post - but what did you mean here? regenerating limbs?

[Juan_Bottom]

Any system of belief relies on faith at some point. But since you're being such a smartass, let's see all the overwhelming evidence that there is no god. My Christian friends can't prove to me that there is one and I doubt you can conclusively prove that there isn't.

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.
And I don't have to prove to you that there is no god. It seems silly, especially since you yourself said that there is no evidence for a god. Isn't that enough for you?
Again, it goes back to the Invisible Flying Spagetti Monster. I can say that there is one flying over your head right now, shootin' meatballs out of his ass, and you can't prove otherwise. Would you even like to try?

You are either very dense or incapable of understanding the point. Their whole point is that God exists outside of the box. The box would be all knowable things within our universe, to make it simple enough for you to understand. We can empirically study everything within the box. What Christians say, at least the ones I've talked to, is that God exists out of the boundaries of those things we can observe.

AGAIN, this goes back to the faith alone argument. You can't prove that there is no Spaggetti Monster, but isn't it silly to believe in one?
The argument of 'you can't see it but it's always there, so ha!' seems unfair, and unsound. It only exists because religions have a damn hard time evidinceing anything. Unlike in the past.....

I'm pretty sure that a thousand years ago your argumant would be the exact opposite.. Something like.....
'God is everywhere who do you suppose makes the wind blow?' Given enough time has become 'you can't prove me wrong, because it's intangible.'
Why would an all-powerful god ever need to be intangible? You asked this same question.

You can return to spreading your conspiracy theories now.

Is this supposed to be a straight insult? Seems counter-productive.

[muy_thaiguy]

Any system of belief relies on faith at some point. But since you're being such a smartass, let's see all the overwhelming evidence that there is no god. My Christian friends can't prove to me that there is one and I doubt you can conclusively prove that there isn't.

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.
And I don't have to prove to you that there is no god. It seems silly, especially since you yourself said that there is no evidence for a god. Isn't that enough for you?
Again, it goes back to the Invisible Flying Spagetti Monster. I can say that there is one flying over your head right now, shootin' meatballs out of his ass, and you can't prove otherwise. Would you even like to try?

Naivety. I suggest you try hearing out what people like Tzor and OnlyAmbrose, as well as many others on here have to say before leaping to conclusions. OA uses Science and Logic as reasons for believing. Tzor does this as well.

You are either very dense or incapable of understanding the point. Their whole point is that God exists outside of the box. The box would be all knowable things within our universe, to make it simple enough for you to understand. We can empirically study everything within the box. What Christians say, at least the ones I've talked to, is that God exists out of the boundaries of those things we can observe.

AGAIN, this goes back to the faith alone argument. You can't prove that there is no Spaggetti Monster, but isn't it silly to believe in one?
The argument of 'you can't see it but it's always there, so ha!' seems unfair, and unsound. It only exists because religions have a damn hard time evidinceing anything. Unlike in the past.....

I'm pretty sure that a thousand years ago your argumant would be the exact opposite.. Something like.....
'God is everywhere who do you suppose makes the wind blow?' Given enough time has become 'you can't prove me wrong, because it's intangible.'
Why would an all-powerful god ever need to be intangible? You asked this same question.[/quote}Read what I posted above. Many Theists, and more specifically, Christians, believe that Science is a way to find out how God created the world and everything on it.

You can return to spreading your conspiracy theories now.

Is this supposed to be a straight insult? Seems counter-productive.

Not even going to bother with this one.

[Juan_Bottom]

Naivety. I suggest you try hearing out what people like Tzor and OnlyAmbrose, as well as many others on here have to say before leaping to conclusions. OA uses Science and Logic as reasons for believing. Tzor does this as well.

It is a different matter when you are searching for evidence to support your claim, and discarding anything that doesn't. And I don't see the logic either....

Not even going to bother with this one.

Then why bother to post?

Read what I posted above. Many Theists, and more specifically, Christians, believe that Science is a way to find out how God created the world and everything on it.

And this sounds naive. I never said that science was the alternative to religion. Only that it discredits the notion of any God(s). I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything. You're reaching here, by just assuming that a god did it. This is another case where, no matter what the explination of something, a Christian would just claim that it was God's tool.

For example, I could say that the earth revolves around the sun; and you would say, of course it does, it's all God's plan.

[tzor]

And this sounds naive. I never said that science was the alternative to religion. Only that it discredits the notion of any God(s). I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything. You're reaching here, by just assuming that a god did it. This is another case where, no matter what the explination of something, a Christian would just claim that it was God's tool.

For example, I could say that the earth revolves around the sun; and you would say, of course it does, it's all God's plan.

But Juan, your argument also sounds naive, in fact doubly so because you are mixing apples and oranges and calling them all grapefruits. So let's take your argument one line at a time.

"I never said that science was the alternative to religion. Only that it discredits the notion of any God(s)."

This is your statement, that "science" somehow "discredits" the notion of any "God(s)." I'd like a little "scientific" evidence and arguments to back up that claim. Or are you making this on your scientific "faith?"

"I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything."

This is an interesting argument. But even so, would you even know what a gods hand looks like? Come back when you can give an example of the creation of anything.

"This is another case where, no matter what the explination of something, a Christian would just claim that it was God's tool."

Oh I am just not going there.

"For example, I could say that the earth revolves around the sun; and you would say, of course it does, it's all God's plan."

Here you show a fundamental lack of understanding of what science is. Science answers the question of "how." It doesn't answer the question of "why." For example: "How is the sky black at night?" (The answer is that there is a finite time since the "beginning" of the universe and thus there is a finite, but huge, distance that can be observed in the universe.) Now why is the sky black at night is a different question alltogether.

Why does H2O have a lower density when in a solid state as opposed to a liquid one?
Why is the moon at the exact distance to cause solar eclipses?
Why is Pi irrational?
Why does Rice still play Texas?

[MeDeFe]

Why does H2O have a lower density when in a solid state as opposed to a liquid one?

Because of its particular crystalline structure when frozen.

Why is the moon at the exact distance to cause solar eclipses?

I think with the mass and speed relative to earth that the moon has, that's the only distance from earth it can be (roughly 300000 km, too lazy to check).

Why is Pi irrational?

I can easily imagine a different system of mathematical symbols where Pi isn't.

As for your last question: I'm not going anywhere near American politics, they are unscientific anyway.

[Neoteny]

Why does H2O have a lower density when in a solid state as opposed to a liquid one?

Because of its particular crystalline structure when frozen.

Huzzah for hydrogen bonding.

[Juan_Bottom]

This is your statement, that "science" somehow "discredits" the notion of any "God(s)." I'd like a little "scientific" evidence and arguments to back up that claim. Or are you making this on your scientific "faith?"

I made this statement with this other one in mind. In this way, I feel that it is discrediting.

"I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything."

This is an interesting argument. But even so, would you even know what a gods hand looks like? Come back when you can give an example of the creation of anything.

I am not sure what you are(literally) asking for, the birth of a mountain, or river? Or something like I made a poop in the sink? I'm not sure of the example you were looking for.

Here you show a fundamental lack of understanding of what science is. Science answers the question of "how." It doesn't answer the question of "why." For example: "How is the sky black at night?" (The answer is that there is a finite time since the "beginning" of the universe and thus there is a finite, but huge, distance that can be observed in the universe.) Now why is the sky black at night is a different question alltogether.

Mostly true, but again, it seems silly to assume that a god is the default answer to "why." When we have no proof, only faith. That's what I was shooting for with this. But ment no offence.

"For example, I could say that the earth revolves around the sun; and you would say, of course it does, it's all God's plan."

Though you are right, I previously ignored the "why" of it all.

[Juan_Bottom]

Why does H2O have a lower density when in a solid state as opposed to a liquid one?

Because of its particular crystalline structure when frozen.

Huzzah for hydrogen bonding.

"Thanks for 'the bomb' science, now go away.........."

[tzor]

Why does H2O have a lower density when in a solid state as opposed to a liquid one?

Because of its particular crystalline structure when frozen.

No, that is how, not why.

And that's my point. Science asks the question how and for the most part seeks honest answers. It doesn't ask why, and indeed even philosophy has a hard time with the hardest quesiton in the universe. Why is H2O such a wonderful molecule?

As for your last question: I'm not going anywhere near American politics, they are unscientific anyway.

Actually it's American college athletics.

[tzor]

Please note the original context of the thread:

I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything. You're reaching here, by just assuming that a god did it.

This is an interesting argument. But even so, would you even know what a gods hand looks like? Come back when you can give an example of the creation of anything.

I am not sure what you are(literally) asking for, the birth of a mountain, or river? Or something like I made a poop in the sink? I'm not sure of the example you were looking for.

I was merely responding to your assertion that you have yet to see any science showing "gods hand" in the creation of anything. Are mountains "created?" Or are rivers created? Perhaps we should start with virtual particles and work our way up from there.

[naxus]

The reason humans have religion at all is because Way back when when they all started people needed a reason to explain the wonders of Nature.Take the romans for example.They had a god for pretty much everything, but even so they had everything explained, Its night because the gods moved the sun, its raining because the gods are sad, People died because of thier life strings being cut.

That is the basis for every religion out there.To Explain the world, doesn't matter how its explained or why its happening people will believe in a higher being just because its easiest and to believe in Nothing(Athesism) Scares most people because it raises the Eternal question, how did we start?

Please note the original context of the thread:

I have yet to see any science show a gods hand in the creation of anything. You're reaching here, by just assuming that a god did it.

So lets say that God does exist.You wouldn't be able to see "Gods Hand" in any of his majestic creations.The reason why is because god could have created however the hell he wanted and people would accept he did it for a reason.He could have made grass purple and water Piss yellow.Or he could have not made mountains at all, or the world could be flat.If he did it like that then that would be the world we live in.The point is that god made the world how it is most likley cause he was wingin it.

If you could find a little piece of evidence that god actually did create something and theres proof, people would deny it or say it was planted by a human or that its total crap.The whole point of religion is faith in something you cant see, hear, touch, feel, or have proof of.So believe in whatever you want but just accept that were here and we've been here and move on

[Gregrios]

[quote="naxus"]The point is that god made the world how it is most likley cause he was wingin it.

Here's a thought. Maybe God created the world the way it is so the EARTH COULD SUSTAIN LIFE!

[The Saxby]

Personally, it's not Jesus I dislike; it's his fan club I can't stand.

[heavycola]

Why is H2O such a wonderful molecule?

because you have the capacity for wonder. It's still just atoms acting according to physical laws

[Gregrios]

Personally, it's not Jesus I dislike; it's his fan club I can't stand.

I'll take that as a compliment.

[heavycola]

The point is that god made the world how it is most likley cause he was wingin it.

Here's a thought. Maybe God created the world the way it is so the EARTH COULD SUSTAIN LIFE!

Maybe god created the universe the way it is so that 2 billion years later, life could originate bu chance on a planet orbiting a minor star towards the edge of a minor galaxy in a relatively young part of the universe.

if there was a creator - which itself is improbable - then all it did was light the touch paper and stand back. All this guff about Yahweh emerging from his contemporary pantheon - when the Israelites shifted from monolatry to monotheism - is a folk tale, nothing more.

[tzor]

The problem heavycola is that this is not an argument; this is a dismissal. Mind you it's a nice dismissal, a viagra for the ego as it were, a means of distinguishing yourself from those who went on before. Yet it remains a dismissal. Just because something is a folk tale doesn't mean it is automatically incorrect.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Personally, it's not Jesus I dislike; it's his fan club I can't stand.

That's not stereotypical!

Atheists!



-irony intended-

[Juan_Bottom]

Maybe god created the universe the way it is so that 2 billion years later, life could originate bu chance on a planet orbiting a minor star towards the edge of a minor galaxy in a relatively young part of the universe.

if there was a creator - which itself is improbable - then all it did was light the touch paper and stand back. All this guff about Yahweh emerging from his contemporary pantheon - when the Israelites shifted from monolatry to monotheism - is a folk tale, nothing more.

Thank-you.
This is a much fairer statement than I was making. I would say that the Bible(not only the Bible) is equally legend, equally fairytale(I'm honestly not trying to get personal, or offensive with anyone).

The whole point of religion is faith in something you cant see, hear, touch, feel, or have proof of.

Thank-you too. That's kinda what I'm sayin'.

But how do you do it? How do you keep on believeing, even after admitting something like this to yourself? You practically said that religion is a trick.
I wouldn't mind your best explination, if i'm honest with you though, I probably won't understand. But! I will try to "get it."

I was merely responding to your assertion that you have yet to see any science showing "gods hand" in the creation of anything. Are mountains "created?" Or are rivers created? Perhaps we should start with virtual particles and work our way up from there.

I'm listening.... I know you are a deep guy, and it keeps me questioning whether or not you always say just what you mean!

[Juan_Bottom]

The problem heavycola is that this is not an argument; this is a dismissal. Mind you it's a nice dismissal, a viagra for the ego as it were, a means of distinguishing yourself from those who went on before. Yet it remains a dismissal. Just because something is a folk tale doesn't mean it is automatically incorrect.

Do you mean as in
the moral of the story is...........

Personally, it's not Jesus I dislike; it's his fan club I can't stand.

That's not stereotypical!

Atheists!



-irony intended-

Hey, I'm an atheist and I didn't say that. let's not go by stereotypes or I'll say that all Christians are like Jay, or Reverend Wright, or George Bush or something.

[Gregrios]

Maybe god created the universe the way it is so that 2 billion years later, life could originate bu chance on a planet orbiting a minor star towards the edge of a minor galaxy in a relatively young part of the universe.

if there was a creator - which itself is improbable - then all it did was light the touch paper and stand back. All this guff about Yahweh emerging from his contemporary pantheon - when the Israelites shifted from monolatry to monotheism - is a folk tale, nothing more.

Thank-you.
This is a much fairer statement than I was making. I would say that the Bible(not only the Bible) is equally legend, equally fairytale(I'm honestly not trying to get personal, or offensive with anyone).

The whole point of religion is faith in something you cant see, hear, touch, feel, or have proof of.

Thank-you too. That's kinda what I'm sayin'.

But how do you do it? How do you keep on believeing, even after admitting something like this to yourself? You practically said that religion is a trick.
I wouldn't mind your best explination, if i'm honest with you though, I probably won't understand. But! I will try to "get it."

I was merely responding to your assertion that you have yet to see any science showing "gods hand" in the creation of anything. Are mountains "created?" Or are rivers created? Perhaps we should start with virtual particles and work our way up from there.

I'm listening.... I know you are a deep guy, and it keeps me questioning whether or not you always say just what you mean!

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

[Juan_Bottom]

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

Ah......What? WTF?
I don't think that anything I said there was an argument? But thank-you for tearing those non-existent arguments to shreads with your razor-sharp wit. You must have been saving that for just such an occasion! I am humbled!

I'd invite you back to actually debate with us though. Let's be fair.

[jonesthecurl]

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

And yours like old champagne - flat.

[Gregrios]

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

And yours like old champagne - flat.

A matter of fact, I do like budweiser.

How'd you know?