AAFitz wrote:Ok, QH, at first I was perhaps a bit more argumentative in this thread, but it was because you jumped down Andy's throat to some degree, after he posted, quite frankly, what the situation was. I somewhat wrongly assumed your motivation was a little more self-satisfying than I do now, after this rather in-depth discussion. I do still completely resist limiting players, because I think it just wont achieve the objective you think it will, however, I do realize more WHY you thought it would, and where the rationale came from.
Ultimately, AA, Andy and Lack already limit the new recruits. On the other end, experienced players are already limited when the appearance of impropriety comes up. I really don’t think it is fair for seasoned players to get locked out of maps and options (and/or suffer bans or other blocks) simply because they play options that are deemed to be “farming.” If I’ve played 1000+ games and I get told I cannot play a certain map because I “play it too much” or I get told I am farming because I join too many new players games, I do not think that is fair. This suggestion goes in the other direction. It prevents new players from playing in situations where they can be farmed. It will help the admin from having to deal with spurious accusations against players who aren’t farming these new players.
AAFitz wrote:You are making this more personal than it has to be, and more personal than it is, because Im not entirely sure you realize the motivation of people that have been here for a long time, and have really watched CC grow into what it has. Some are protective of it, and some even over-protective. That being said, I dont think that is the case here.
This isn’t about anything personal, this is about helping CC to continue to grow. I harken back to the comment I made in a previous post regarding where CC is now compared to where CC was in 2006. Anyone who joined in 2006 has had an opportunity to take the changes made at CC at pace. I’m guessing, but I’ve read a bunch of old posts to attempt to figure it out: no speed, no fog, no freestyle, etc. What were there, like 10 maps? If you joined in early 2006, you had the benefit of learning maps as they came out. You also had the benefit of learning the game options as they came out. The same is true for players who joined in 2007, 2008, and even early 2009. There have been options added since I joined in Juneish. I did, however, have a bunch of options to navigate when I first joined and I saw lots of players join at the same time who crashed and burned on the tougher options and tougher maps. Those players that crash and burn would benefit from being blocked from the toughest options and the toughest maps. You could say that I was “blocked” from playing Third Crusade for the first 5 months of my time on CC. I was blocked because it didn’t exist and wasn’t on BETA until November. Why not do this suggestion?
AAFitz wrote:However, the thread does highlight the problem, and probably will be instrumental in making some kind of change. I myself hope that change involves grouping the maps in difficulty categories. When I made that suggestion, I did so, because you were complaining that people were just telling you why your idea wouldnt work, and werent contributing. I made a new suggestion that I think will solve most of the problems, but instead of supporting the move to achieve your objectives, you posted that it was essentially a bad idea.
Sorry, you missed my intentionally black sarcasm. I thought I actually quoted your words in your first comment on this suggestion when I said, “I’ve been here for a long time and this will never work.” While it wasn’t a direct quote, it was the spirit of your first comment that I was “quoting” as I felt your first comment didn’t really speak to anything except your intense desire to make Andy happy and to simply state that you object. Your first objection had no basis and no supporting reasoning. I’m sorry that I was sarcastic in response to your suggestion.
AAFitz wrote:This does made it hard to trust your motivations, but Ive decided you truly do want to make improvement, and are not just arguing to be right. Dont take that personally....it happens all the time, and while I try to make sure I dont fall into the trap of arguing a position simply to be right...it does happen.
Lol, it felt as though you were arguing to be right until you started to give reasons for your objection. I am not arguing to be right. I am arguing a very effective suggestion that will benefit this site on many levels.
AAFitz wrote:The important thing to do when trying to make a change, is to view the objective. The objective is the only thing that matters.
In this case, the objective is to increase new player satisfaction and retention, and reduce farming. By labeling the maps by difficulty level, farming will be reduced and satisfaction increased, possibly even retention. By letting new players try any map they want, and showing them ALL that CC has to offer, satisfaction is again increased, and retention more likely.
K. Yep.
AAFitz wrote:The suggestion to limit games, and open them up over time, will create a certain lure to play and open maps...however, that will achieve the objective of increased satisfaction, and reduced farming, but will most likely not help retention. Realistically, it couldnt possibly positively affect it. If a player leaves after playing some options, it really is just impossible to believe they might have stayed if they had less options to play in the first place. Certainly it wasnt too many options that made them leave, it was other factors, and probably the lack of real time games. However, it is likely, that if maps are blocked, new players dont get to see all the options, and decide to leave based on less than full information. It is very likely that a blocked map, might just catch someones eye, and make them want to stay, whereas its really unlikely, that they will stay, just because they might get to see that map...if they play more games....Its just an impossible rationale really as you go through the decision process.
If a player has less options and less maps, certainly it could be less interesting to stick around on this site. However, thousands have stuck around prior to fog, prior to the 30th map, prior to manual deploy. Simply having fewer options and fewer maps will not make people leave. I return to my original comment that a player cannot play 141 maps in their first 80 games.
AAFitz wrote:It is much better to show more of the site, to achieve maximum new player retention, than to hope that opening them up, will somehow make the difference.
I will agree that its possible, that for those that decide to stay, that this suggestion, possibly could make them enjoy it more...however, it comes at a price of losing other new players, and limiting other players...that really just dont deserve to be limited.
Let them see it, let them know that it takes some time to open up those maps, but that the amount of time isn’t very long. If they don’t like the system, they’ll leave, sure. Dangling this carrot-on-a-stick in front of them can’t hurt.
AAFitz wrote:I more than understand, because of the work that youve put into this why youve taken it personally that people disagree...but I do hope you see that its not just people being nay-sayers, or trying to be negative, but people truly interested in whats best for CC. I for one fully commend your commitment to this, simply because its obvious you are trying to make an improvement...but I do suggest you really read the consenting views yourself, and see that it isnt just people attacking you for the sake of it...but people trying to help achieve the same objectives you are...but that simply disagree with your suggestion of how to do it. I offer this as an olive branch of sorts....and while I doubt youre going to just give up and give in...I do hope this makes it easier for you to realize this is not some personal argument...but just a discussion of possible ways to make the site better....and I do hope you dont discount the experience of some of the players...including myself, who literaly have been here for years, have played every single day in that time...and for fun, have put some serious time into thinking about how to make CC fun, simply for the sake of making it fun. If nothing else, I hope you realize you are respected for your effort, and disagreement with an idea, does not mean a lack of respect...but just disagreement... the difference is huge...and since you put so much time into this...It would just be a shame for you not to realize people do appreciate any effort made...even when they disagree.
Tank Ewe. Olive branch accepted. What I am proposing is essentially a rule, and nobody likes rules. I get it that my rule seems harsh and “not fun” because it is affiliated with “limiting” and “blocking”. Let me say that I love this game. I think there are others who love it more. I think that a player is going to be more apt to join and stick around if they are limited to the basic options at first. Give them a chance to love the game before they get farmed or abused. Provide a method, like mine, to add a new level to the challenge of the site.
AAFitz wrote:Oh, and gogatron is not my multi...even though if I really wanted to make my point, id have made a multi and posted all the things he said. I honestly suspect the two of us myself...so I know it had to have crossed someones mind out there...lol
seriously...we arent...
It is simply funny to think of it that way, and if it were legal to do so, I would do something like that one million times over because I would find it intensely hilarious.
) so I won't get into them here.
