For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[timmytuttut88]

Option 3 is kind of reasonable, but option 4 makes the most sense.

[Woodruff]

i like option 4... and andy, can i get clarification. if we wanted to separate the infractions into different areas to prevent something like a member getting a lengthy ban for their first infraction in live chat (an example), but having it snowballed up into one big "violation pool", we would need to start a separate suggestion thread? that is the only thing that i see missing from this. each infraction/violation should be separate and not snowballed. you get a warning for PM abuse, you do it again, and you go up the next rung, that makes sense. however, if you get a warning for PM abuse, and then get a warning for live chat and a combo vacation, i thing that should be changed. so, to summarize, i like option 4 and i want to know if another suggestion needs to be made to have infractions only step up the scale of punishment, if the same rule is violated. is that at all clear? where is my coffee... these mid-day naps make me groggy... getting old is hard... sigh...-0

My concern with having every possible infraction getting it's own "ladder of punishment" is that it opens up the possibility of individuals taking advantage by being across-the-board assholes without receiving anything but warnings. That aspect seems unavoidable to me, and makes the differentiation a failure in my opinon, and I do believe it could be a potentially serious problem.

[squishyg]

I think there needs to be a happy medium when it comes to multiple minor infractions in different areas. Two or three is one thing, but five or six is asking for trouble. Also, a new player might be given more of a break than someone who's been here awhile and should know better.

Basically, I think this is a grey area where we need to trust the mods to, well, moderate.

[ender516]

Lots to read here. I like what Owenshooter is saying except that there are a lot of minor types (flaming, baiting, signatures, live chat, avatars, and so on....). Someone who breaks 15 different minor infractions would not get punished? I have a hard time with that, especially after say 7 warnings about different areas. If you can't figure out what to do after 3 warnings and how to behave, then we have an issue.

yes, but to receive a major warning for forum violations, and then to receive a ban for your first game chat or PM or live chat violaion, due to the cumulative method the admins/mods employ, just does not make sense... so i am asking if that is going to be addressed or if a separate suggestion needs to be started...-0

The answer to this could be that each different infraction is always entitled to a warning on a first offense, but bans escalate together, so once an offender received a 24 hour ban for any minor infraction, the ban for the next minor infraction of any type would be 72 hours. You get one kick at each can, but after that, they're all the same.

[jpcloet]

The answer to this could be that each different infraction is always entitled to a warning on a first offense, but bans escalate together, so once an offender received a 24 hour ban for any minor infraction, the ban for the next minor infraction of any type would be 72 hours. You get one kick at each can, but after that, they're all the same.

That is what they don't want, a couple of small oooopsies should not bet you punished under the current system is my interpretation of about half this thread. Just not sure what the middle ground is.

[Woodruff]

Lots to read here. I like what Owenshooter is saying except that there are a lot of minor types (flaming, baiting, signatures, live chat, avatars, and so on....). Someone who breaks 15 different minor infractions would not get punished? I have a hard time with that, especially after say 7 warnings about different areas. If you can't figure out what to do after 3 warnings and how to behave, then we have an issue.

yes, but to receive a major warning for forum violations, and then to receive a ban for your first game chat or PM or live chat violaion, due to the cumulative method the admins/mods employ, just does not make sense... so i am asking if that is going to be addressed or if a separate suggestion needs to be started...-0

The answer to this could be that each different infraction is always entitled to a warning on a first offense, but bans escalate together, so once an offender received a 24 hour ban for any minor infraction, the ban for the next minor infraction of any type would be 72 hours. You get one kick at each can, but after that, they're all the same.

This seems to me like an excellent compromise to me.

[ender516]

The answer to this could be that each different infraction is always entitled to a warning on a first offense, but bans escalate together, so once an offender received a 24 hour ban for any minor infraction, the ban for the next minor infraction of any type would be 72 hours. You get one kick at each can, but after that, they're all the same.

That is what they don't want, a couple of small oooopsies should not bet you punished under the current system is my interpretation of about half this thread. Just not sure what the middle ground is.

My suggestion allows you one each of any number of small oooopsies, with separate warnings for separate types of infractions, but once you repeat a minor infraction, you start down the road of escalating bans, and you don't get to be repeatedly annoying in all directions at once.

[Artimis]

I managed to find the list of 'options' that everyone else is going on about, I've read it and I like option 3, that one gets my vote.

[ender516]

I managed to find the list of 'options' that everyone else is going on about, I've read it and I like option 3, that one gets my vote.

Yes, I had trouble finding them too. Maybe Andy should have made it a poll (or got the original poster to do it). I prefer option 4 to option 3 to the others.

[AndyDufresne]

Posting support of an option is better than simply a poll endorsing option---because it allows us to understand why people are endorsing what.

In the next day I'll review some of the posts that have occurred thus far.


--Andy

[owenshooter]

I managed to find the list of 'options' that everyone else is going on about, I've read it and I like option 3, that one gets my vote.

Yes, I had trouble finding them too. Maybe Andy should have made it a poll (or got the original poster to do it). I prefer option 4 to option 3 to the others.

well, a poll isn't indicative of what is going on within the thread. many people have contributed solid ideas, and have shown a desire and willingness to help. so, when those same people post in agreement with one of the 4 ideas, it is worth far more than someone just popping in to see the thread at the top of the page and voting without really delving into the thread. it will also lead to a far better discussion once this moves along to the next phase of the discussion...-0

[MrBenn]

Lots to read here. I like what Owenshooter is saying except that there are a lot of minor types (flaming, baiting, signatures, live chat, avatars, and so on....). Someone who breaks 15 different minor infractions would not get punished? I have a hard time with that, especially after say 7 warnings about different areas. If you can't figure out what to do after 3 warnings and how to behave, then we have an issue.

yes, but to receive a major warning for forum violations, and then to receive a ban for your first game chat or PM or live chat violaion, due to the cumulative method the admins/mods employ, just does not make sense... so i am asking if that is going to be addressed or if a separate suggestion needs to be started...-0

If it helps, think of it like motoring convictions... there are a variety of different offences (speeding, failing to comply with traffic signs, dangerous driving, etc., etc.) but each offence carries some form of sanction (usually a fine and some points on your license). Once you have accumulated a certain level of points, then you have your license revoked for a certain period of time.

Perhaps we could allocate each offence a point value (minor=2 points, major = 4 points), and in addition to fixed sanctions (something like minor=24hrs, majoy=72hrs), if a sanction means a user equals or exceeds a total of 10/15/ 20 disciplinary points, then they receive an automatic ban (1/3/6 months). Disciplinary points should remain permanently, or for at least 2-3yrs...

Just some random musings...

[ender516]

Posting support of an option is better than simply a poll endorsing option---because it allows us to understand why people are endorsing what.

In the next day I'll review some of the posts that have occurred thus far.


--Andy

Sorry, quite right, polls look neat, but posts are more helpful to the discussion.

[ender516]

Lots to read here. I like what Owenshooter is saying except that there are a lot of minor types (flaming, baiting, signatures, live chat, avatars, and so on....). Someone who breaks 15 different minor infractions would not get punished? I have a hard time with that, especially after say 7 warnings about different areas. If you can't figure out what to do after 3 warnings and how to behave, then we have an issue.

yes, but to receive a major warning for forum violations, and then to receive a ban for your first game chat or PM or live chat violaion, due to the cumulative method the admins/mods employ, just does not make sense... so i am asking if that is going to be addressed or if a separate suggestion needs to be started...-0

If it helps, think of it like motoring convictions... there are a variety of different offences (speeding, failing to comply with traffic signs, dangerous driving, etc., etc.) but each offence carries some form of sanction (usually a fine and some points on your license). Once you have accumulated a certain level of points, then you have your license revoked for a certain period of time.

Perhaps we could allocate each offence a point value (minor=2 points, major = 4 points), and in addition to fixed sanctions (something like minor=24hrs, majoy=72hrs), if a sanction means a user equals or exceeds a total of 10/15/ 20 disciplinary points, then they receive an automatic ban (1/3/6 months). Disciplinary points should remain permanently, or for at least 2-3yrs...

Just some random musings...

Very well put. I was considering the demerit point system (as it is referred to here in Ontario) but couldn't find the time to spell it out. Just reading the fora has been taking a lot of my time! I do think that points should expire eventually.

[squishyg]

I'm not sure about the point system. It's still an escalating system where you can get a harsh punishment for a minor offense (albeit repeated minor offenses).

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any stats on what people have been banned for? I feel like we're discussing some of this in a vacuum.

[timmytuttut88]

I'm not sure about the point system. It's still an escalating system where you can get a harsh punishment for a minor offense (albeit repeated minor offenses).

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any stats on what people have been banned for? I feel like we're discussing some of this in a vacuum.

Well most of the time we don't know. Usually mods just classify anyone they ban as "trolling'.

[Woodruff]

I'm not sure about the point system. It's still an escalating system where you can get a harsh punishment for a minor offense (albeit repeated minor offenses).

I think that an escalating system of some sort HAS to be in place. Otherwise, the repeat offenders won't ever find a "level" where they decide it's not worth it and start to behave.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any stats on what people have been banned for? I feel like we're discussing some of this in a vacuum.

Sometimes, the information is there (a banning statement from a mod), but most of the time I don't believe it is, unfortunately. I'm sure the mods have that information, but I also feel fairly certain they won't care to share it.

[squishyg]

I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is whether or not most people are perma-banned for clear cases of abuse such as bigotry, cyber-bullying, and cheating. Have there been a lot of bans like Dancing Mustard's perma-ban?

By all means people should be punished for infractions, but I don't believe that trolling (since that's what DM was banned for if I understand correctly) ever warrants a perma-ban. If the posts become abusive, then a perma-ban may be warranted, but you shouldn't be permanently banned just for being annoying to someone. Isn't that what our foe option is for?

[Woodruff]

I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is whether or not most people are perma-banned for clear cases of abuse such as bigotry, cyber-bullying, and cheating.

Hard to tell, I think...since I don't believe most cases are public knowledge.

By all means people should be punished for infractions, but I don't believe that trolling (since that's what DM was banned for if I understand correctly) ever warrants a perma-ban. If the posts become abusive, then a perma-ban may be warranted, but you shouldn't be permanently banned just for being annoying to someone. Isn't that what our foe option is for?

I agree.

[timmytuttut88]

Have there been a lot of bans like Dancing Mustard's perma-ban?

Not "a lot", but there are others. DaGip, t-o-m, and the_lion (although his might have been for posting personal info).

[jammyjames]

Point 2
If the max ban is Perma-ban then most mods with feelings would probably not want to give that out, especially to someone who was popular, so instead they would keep giving little bans and warnings in hopes of correcting the behavior of the individual. So the mods would end up stretching out the current Guidelines until it's the last straw and they drop the perma-ban. If the max punishment was only 6 months though then the mods can easily follow the guidelines strictly in giving their punishments, because 6 months is far less severe than forever.

One user springs to mind. for those who cannot guess who FREDVIII. enough said

[owenshooter]

is this just fading away? or maybe everyone is over in the GD due to the latest round of perma-bans...-0

[4myGod]

is this just fading away? or maybe everyone is over in the GD due to the latest round of perma-bans...-0

A lot of crap seems to be hitting the fan lately, perhaps it has always been this way and I am still a noob to the site.

I personally don't see an end to this discussion. So I haven't been participating as heavily as I could. What's the next step? We have seen many of each others opinions and have an idea of what we want, but how do we now clarify what changes CC should actually make? Perhaps not a poll but what? I haven't ever seen anything go beyond stage 1.

[owenshooter]

I personally don't see an end to this discussion. So I haven't been participating as heavily as I could. What's the next step? We have seen many of each others opinions and have an idea of what we want, but how do we now clarify what changes CC should actually make? Perhaps not a poll but what? I haven't ever seen anything go beyond stage 1.

maybe you should pay attention. people are now discussing/debating several options andy gave us. here you go:

=========================================


Hm, lets see what we've got so far:

Option 1

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, Permanent
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  (Keep in mind, these levels don't just include Forums, but Live Chat as well as gaming on the website as well).
  
  This is the system we have currently.

Option 2

• 1
  • For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
    • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months, Permanent
    Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
    • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Option 3

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  We'd keep with the general current system we have no---no probationary periods, etc.
  
  If a user comes back after a 6 Month Vacation, if their next Infraction was a Minor Infraction they would be hit with another 6 Month Vacation, no matter the period of time elapsed from the last Vacation. If their next Infraction was instead a Major/Severe Infraction, it'd probably lead to a Permanent Vacation.

Option 4

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  Upon a user coming back after a 6 Month Vacation, if they go 6 months without a Minor or Major/Severe Infraction, their Disciplinary level could be bumped down to 1 Month for their next Minor Infraction. Should they then after those 6 months, have a Minor Infraction, they would get a 1 Month Vacation, and upon their return from the 1 Month Vacation, their next Minor Infraction would lead them to a 6 Month Vacation.

Then there are the even more radical schemes of sweeping rollbacks, but I don't think we can entertain any of those ideas at the current time.

Option 1 seems to have some current opposition, Option 2 is one proposed middle ground Option 3 is also a proposed middle ground, Option 4 is another proposed middle ground.

I think Option 4, however, may be getting to the point of making things too difficult or complex for a World Domination based gaming website.


--Andy

it is beyond stage 1...-0

[squishyg]

There's something I'm a little unclear on. When you get a vacation, can you still play your games? Can you start/join new ones?