4 Star Meats [Quenched]

[iancanton]

no-one will ever try for chuck & brisket because it totally cuts off the head, which is an easier bonus. try splitting the zones as chuck (4 regions), rib (4 regions) and brisket & thick rib (5 regions). this gives some reasonable bonuses in the middle. a similar argument applies to the oxtail, but even more so, since this bonus is far easier than rump: adding topside and minute steak to the oxtail bonus will improve things here.

the term regional bonus often means something else (for example, a bonus for the number of regions held, such as +1 for every 3 regions), so replace it in the legend by main cuts or something more appropriate.

ian.

[dana1971]

Hey thanks to everyone who posted constructive criticism.
I'll look at this more closely and work on a new version.

In terms of the 88, I guess that's why it needs the extra large sticker. Keep in mind I have seen other maps that don't fit three digit armies.

So you know, the last version I posted was the smaller version of the map, but I agree the tail area needs more space.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[AndyDufresne]

Hey thanks to everyone who posted constructive criticism.
I'll look at this more closely and work on a new version.

In terms of the 88, I guess that's why it needs the extra large sticker. Keep in mind I have seen other maps that don't fit three digit armies.

So you know, the last version I posted was the smaller version of the map, but I agree the tail area needs more space.

Best Wishes,
Dana

Which maps are you referring to? I am curious!


--Andy

[dana1971]

There are a few especially if you go into 3 or 4 digits.
For example world 2.1
http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=9880753

It's all still clear but the numbers don't fit in the boarders of the smaller countries.

I can show you several more examples if you like.

My point is that is shouldn't matter if the numbers go out of the boarders as long as it's clear where the armies are located.

[thenobodies80]

From guidelines:

Army Numbers - Army numbers are an essential component of every CC map. Their placement is important - it must be clear which 'territory' each army belongs to, and there must be enough room to fit a three digit number without compromising legibility of borders or labels. You may wish to use CC Army Digit Images to see how the map looks with the addition of army numbers, and to check the placement of 'army circles' if you choose to use them.

[koontz1973]

In terms of the 88, I guess that's why it needs the extra large sticker. Keep in mind I have seen other maps that don't fit three digit armies.

The map you posted was world 2.1. That was done back in 2006, a whole 5 years ago and the foundry and CC as a whole was a different place then. Since then, rules and guidelines for maps have been written and must be kept to. Which means you do need to keep to them no matter what has come before.

So you know, the last version I posted was the smaller version of the map, but I agree the tail area needs more space.

So the small version. Come on, lets try to go a tad more slowly with this. You have not really addressed any of the problems with the GP yet so no need to go onto the small now.

Your argument of the supersized sticker being needed to fit the 88's in is not valid. Look at a lot of maps that have many more territs in than yours and you will see they manage it. You still have around a third of your map as wasted space. You have everything so spaced out. Make the cow touch the sides if you have to but you have so much room not used.

[ndrs]

To free up more space on the animal, perhaps you could use a more compact version of a bull?
Something like this:



You could even remove some meat terts and add more playability to the surroundings instead. A butchers shop or something. Or portray the meats way to the table by transports / problems with mass production of livestock / CO2 emissions / diseases...
I think that angle would make the map more interesting.

[Flapcake]

To free up more space on the animal, perhaps you could use a more compact version of a bull?
Something like this:



You could even remove some meat terts and add more playability to the surroundings instead. A butchers shop or something. Or portray the meats way to the table by transports / problems with mass production of livestock / CO2 emissions / diseases...
I think that angle would make the map more interesting.

Those isues has been suggested b4 with no responce, Butchers shop would be the perfect scene for that map

the cow as a poster on the wall and theme stuff like a slaughter bench, meat axe, blood and you know, butchers stuff

[dana1971]

From guidelines:

Army Numbers - Army numbers are an essential component of every CC map. Their placement is important - it must be clear which 'territory' each army belongs to, and there must be enough room to fit a three digit number without compromising legibility of borders or labels. You may wish to use CC Army Digit Images to see how the map looks with the addition of army numbers, and to check the placement of 'army circles' if you choose to use them.

This quote doesn't go against anything I said I think. Basically what it's saying is that as long as it's clear where your troops are then it's good.

[dana1971]

Things I plan to do next:

1. Make sure the troop count is clear and fits.
2. Address comments on fly swarm's ability to attack more regions
3. Make legend more clear
4. Allow tongue region to attack grass as suggested
5. Make better use of the surrounding space
6. Address color pallet? (Not clear on this one, I guess the colors just need to be more distinctive from each other so people don't get confused?)
7.change regional bonus terminology

Please let me know if you feel I need to add anything specific to my to do list.

In terms of the bonuses in the center of the map being difficult to hold. That's intentional.
Like the classic map, it's not advisable to go for Asia at the start because it's hard to hold, yet in big group games it can be done because players don't want to weaken their boarders and end up letting someone take it.

The way I saw Prime Beef working was that players would go for the easy bonuses in the legs, tail and head first. Then they would expand into the center of the body to try and grab bigger bonuses. I could see big forces piling up in the legs and the grass is there to allow one leg to attack another through the back door, but in a fog of war game you would never know what is on the other side of the grass. To keep that element of surprise, the grass resets itself.

I saw the cow pat as the wold card spot. If you can hold the tail and the cow pat for long enough you could build up a large army which can only attack the hind leg. That army could then spread to the next leg if it was big enough. A bit like how foot and mouth was spread.

The best maps have easy bonuses to hold and hard bonuses to hold. I'm not interested in making a map where the whole map has equally balanced bonuses.

In terms of the surrounding area, it's been suggested that I have a lot of wasted space? I don't agree. Look at the classic map. Should the big areas of sea be considered wasted space because you can't conquer it? This map should look like a cow and I don't want to clutter the image by forcing more gameplay elements into the corners and sides. (Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the comment?)

Anyway...
I believe this could be a fun map to play and hope to get a chance to test my strategies.

Best Wishes,
Dana,

Happy New Year.

[AndyDufresne]

In terms of the surrounding area, it's been suggested that I have a lot of wasted space? I don't agree. Look at the classic map. Should the big areas of sea be considered wasted space because you can't conquer it? This map should look like a cow and I don't want to clutter the image by forcing more gameplay elements into the corners and sides. (Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the comment?)

Technically on the Classic map, the 'big areas of wasted space' you mention function as impassable gameplay elements. I think those concerned about your 'big areas of wasted space' is that they are without function other than taking space.


--Andy

[iancanton]

The way I saw Prime Beef working was that players would go for the easy bonuses in the legs, tail and head first. Then they would expand into the center of the body to try and grab bigger bonuses.

there must be several winning strategies for what is essentially a non-specialist map, not just one. the reason why there is active discouragement of the above type of bonus distribution is that it's already the instinct of many players in a multi-player game to hide in a corner and let everyone else weaken themselves by attacking each other. by putting easily-held bonuses in the extremities to reward this ignoble type of play, u are penalising both those who play actively and those who are unlucky enough to be dropped with most of their forces in the middle.

I could see big forces piling up in the legs and the grass is there to allow one leg to attack another through the back door, but in a fog of war game you would never know what is on the other side of the grass. To keep that element of surprise, the grass resets itself.

an interesting concept, which is improved by the tongue being able to attack the grass. this might work even better with a slightly smaller number of neutrals. 8 is a lot of troops to lose to break a +2 bonus.

I saw the cow pat as the wold card spot. If you can hold the tail and the cow pat for long enough you could build up a large army which can only attack the hind leg. That army could then spread to the next leg if it was big enough. A bit like how foot and mouth was spread.

nothing wrong with this idea, except for the tail bonus being too easy to hold, which means more troops with exclusive access to the cow pat +2 auto-deploy.

The best maps have easy bonuses to hold and hard bonuses to hold. I'm not interested in making a map where the whole map has equally balanced bonuses.

the best maps do not have easily-protected small bonuses in the corners and no way of winning if u start from the middle. the changes i mentioned in my previous post do not make the whole map equally-balanced. they simply redress some of the imbalance, so that the legs and tail will still be popular bonuses, but will not be the only ones to be considered in the early and middle game.

ian.

[dana1971]

Thanks for the well thought out comments iancanton

I'll look at the center bonuses again.

[thenobodies80]

Ok, I don't want you think that what I'm going to say is against you. I'm just talking about the map.

Right now your map lacks of a theme. I'm saying this from the start but it seems to me you're ignoring this thing just because 3 person supported your current layout, so I would be really greatful if you can find a better theme (or let me say a theme) and try to fit the map in a sort of story or something like that. Right now it's just a map about a cow and sorry but this is everything except funny and it is everything but not what we will let go through the foundry system.

Let me say this clear, in this case the draft stamp was given without following the current procedure and even if I don't want to "strip" the stamp becuase it isn't your fault if it was given without follow the current procedure, as it is now, this map CAN NOT be considered worth a draft stamp nor a valid map to be part of the current CC Map list. We're proud of the maps we have on this site so sorry if I'm acting in this way. Just trying to do my job.
As I've already said to you via PM I really suggest you to find a better map project. Guy, you have skill, why waste time on this shit?
Right now I could just bin it but I prefer you understand why it is a bad map and why on CC we don't want this type of maps.

Please find something to make your map something else than 1000 failure other cow/human body maps or much better find a better map to draw.

The CAs are here to help people to draw the best possible maps, even if sometimes this means tell to someone he is drawing a bad map and probably if he has skill it could be a better idea to use that talent to develope a different map. We have experience, we saw this map fail 1000 times, guy don't waste your time.

This is my (i'm sorry, but let me say evil) final say on this map project. Make this idea something really brilliant or I'll bin it the next time I'll visit this thread.
Now I hope that the people who thinks like me will come here to tell you that I'm not so evil and I'm just saying the truth.

Hope to see you work on a better project soon,
Nobodies

[DiM]

i completely agree with tnb80 on this one. i've been saying this from the start. the theme is a joke (a bad one) but the graphics are nice. unlike many other wannabes you actually have skill and it's a shame to see it wasted on a cow map.

so to end with some very true words:

Hope to see you work on a better project soon,

[MrBenn]

i completely agree with tnb80 on this one. i've been saying this from the start. the theme is a joke (a bad one) but the graphics are nice. unlike many other wannabes you actually have skill and it's a shame to see it wasted on a cow map.

so to end with some very true words:

Hope to see you work on a better project soon,

Take heed of these wise words...

[iancanton]

u clearly have the talent to draw. if u take what u've learned here and apply it to a project that more than a few players actually find interesting after the novelty value has worn off, then u have a chance to be known for all the right reasons as a mapmaker.

ian.

[dana1971]

i completely agree with tnb80 on this one. i've been saying this from the start. the theme is a joke (a bad one) but the graphics are nice. unlike many other wannabes you actually have skill and it's a shame to see it wasted on a cow map.

I'm surprised you feel this was DIM. You made a really cool abstract map with yarn. I love it because it's different and stands out.

Not sure why your map theme is any more valid than mine?

I've put a fair bit of time and effort into this map and think it would be fun to play not because of the theme but because of the game-play.

I will have to have one more pass at it before the powers at be undoubtedly can it.

[dana1971]

I've got a lot on so please be patient and give me one more pass at it before you all decide to can it.

I'll add a wee story and everything.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[Bruceswar]

I cannot wait for this one to come out. While some might not like it, I certainly do.

[The Bison King]

i completely agree with tnb80 on this one. i've been saying this from the start. the theme is a joke (a bad one) but the graphics are nice. unlike many other wannabes you actually have skill and it's a shame to see it wasted on a cow map.

I'm surprised you feel this was DIM. You made a really cool abstract map with yarn. I love it because it's different and stands out.

Not sure why your map theme is any more valid than mine?

I've put a fair bit of time and effort into this map and think it would be fun to play not because of the theme but because of the game-play.

I will have to have one more pass at it before the powers at be undoubtedly can it.

Totally Valid Imo. Keep at it Dana!

[Butters1919]

I cannot wait for this one to come out. While some might not like it, I certainly do.

Likewise!

[Victor Sullivan]

Haha, it would be funny if you had some sort of stamp on the map that said, "Certified KoRT beef"

-Sully

[dana1971]

Thanks for the positive feedback. I needed that.

I am currently working on what may be the last update

So far I've added:
A story to help support the theme
Changed some of the game play elements allowing more opportunity for bonuses, and more opportunities to break the easy ones.
Added more space for the troop numbers
Plan to add more barriers, and make the Chuck and Brisket area into two separate bonuses.
Also making the key for the map more clear to read.

Watch this space.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[natty dread]

Ok, I think the main problem about this is that it is a map about a cow. The subject seems a bit too banal for a CC map, and the official stance of the CA:s is that maps need a better theme than that.

How about you make the map about a farm, where you could have groups of different farm animals as bonus areas... and each region would be a single animal. You could have a pigsty, a cow pasture, a chicken coop...

Or, taking the idea a bit further... you could make a map with an Animal Farm theme! Now that could be something interesting.