2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

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_sabotage_
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

Ok, so what could the warnings have told him had he bothered to take note or follow up on them?

From CNN

President Bush's daily intelligence briefings in the weeks leading up to the September 11 terror attacks included a warning of the possibility that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner, senior administration officials said Wednesday.

NYTimes

The White House said tonight that President Bush had been warned by American intelligence agencies in early August that Osama bin Laden was seeking to hijack aircraft but that the warnings did not contemplate the possibility that the hijackers would turn the planes into guided missiles for a terrorist attack.

As reported in the respected German daily Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung (FAZ) on Sept. 14, 2001 the German intelligence service, the BND, warned both the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.

In August 2000 French intelligence sources confirmed a man recently arrested in Boston by the FBI was an Islamic militant and a key member of Osama bin Laden s Al Qaeda network. The FBI knew the man had been taking flying lessons at the time of his arrest and was in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals, as reported by Reuters on Sept. 13.

According to a story in Izveztia on Sept. 12, Russian intelligence warned the USG that as many as 25 suicide pilots were training for missions involving the crashing of airliners into important targets.

In an MSNBC interview on Sept. 15, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that he had ordered Russian intelligence to warn the USG in the strongest possible terms of imminent assaults on airports and government buildings before the attacks on Sept. 11.

CBS News, May 16, 2002:

“President Bush was told in the months before the Sept. 11 attacks that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network might hijack U.S. passenger planes - information which prompted the administration to issue an alert to federal agencies - but not the American public.”

“On July 5, 2001, according to a recent Washington Post article, the White House called together officials from a dozen federal agencies to give them a warning.

“‘Something really spectacular is going to happen here, and it's going to happen soon,’ the officials were told by the government's top counterterrorism official, Richard Clarke.

“Clarke considered the threat sufficiently important to direct every counterintelligence office to cancel vacations and get ready for immediate action, the Post reported.”

So it seems clear he knew that:

1. An attack was coming,
2. It involved planes.
3. It was soon.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

saxitoxin wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote: You haven't provided a single piece of evidence validating your official story theory,
If I say trees can ride bicycles it's my job to prove it, not your job to find a source that says they can't.
There were over 80 cameras focused on the Pentagon. The videos were immediately rounded up by the FBI. 4 have been released. None show a plane. A CIA agent claims to have examined all videos, and signed an affidavit saying none show a plane.

Proof, there was no plane.

If there was no plane, it couldn't have been Flight 77, since Flight 77 was indeed a plane. If it wasn't a plane, what was it? It went boom, it stunk of cordite, it evaded the missile defence system of the Pentagon.

It was a missile that registered friendly with the Pentagon. It was a Pentagon missile.

An inside job. You are welcome.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by rdsrds2120 »

_sabotage_ wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote: You haven't provided a single piece of evidence validating your official story theory,
If I say trees can ride bicycles it's my job to prove it, not your job to find a source that says they can't.
There were over 80 cameras focused on the Pentagon. The videos were immediately rounded up by the FBI. 4 have been released. None show a plane. A CIA agent claims to have examined all videos, and signed an affidavit saying none show a plane.

Proof, there was no plane.

If there was no plane, it couldn't have been Flight 77, since Flight 77 was indeed a plane. If it wasn't a plane, what was it? It went boom, it stunk of cordite, it evaded the missile defence system of the Pentagon.

It was a missile that registered friendly with the Pentagon. It was a Pentagon missile.

An inside job. You are welcome.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by BigBallinStalin »

_sabotage_ wrote:Ok, so what could the warnings have told him had he bothered to take note or follow up on them?

From CNN

President Bush's daily intelligence briefings in the weeks leading up to the September 11 terror attacks included a warning of the possibility that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner, senior administration officials said Wednesday.

NYTimes

The White House said tonight that President Bush had been warned by American intelligence agencies in early August that Osama bin Laden was seeking to hijack aircraft but that the warnings did not contemplate the possibility that the hijackers would turn the planes into guided missiles for a terrorist attack.

As reported in the respected German daily Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung (FAZ) on Sept. 14, 2001 the German intelligence service, the BND, warned both the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.

In August 2000 French intelligence sources confirmed a man recently arrested in Boston by the FBI was an Islamic militant and a key member of Osama bin Laden s Al Qaeda network. The FBI knew the man had been taking flying lessons at the time of his arrest and was in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals, as reported by Reuters on Sept. 13.

According to a story in Izveztia on Sept. 12, Russian intelligence warned the USG that as many as 25 suicide pilots were training for missions involving the crashing of airliners into important targets.

In an MSNBC interview on Sept. 15, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that he had ordered Russian intelligence to warn the USG in the strongest possible terms of imminent assaults on airports and government buildings before the attacks on Sept. 11.

CBS News, May 16, 2002:

“President Bush was told in the months before the Sept. 11 attacks that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network might hijack U.S. passenger planes - information which prompted the administration to issue an alert to federal agencies - but not the American public.”

“On July 5, 2001, according to a recent Washington Post article, the White House called together officials from a dozen federal agencies to give them a warning.

“‘Something really spectacular is going to happen here, and it's going to happen soon,’ the officials were told by the government's top counterterrorism official, Richard Clarke.

“Clarke considered the threat sufficiently important to direct every counterintelligence office to cancel vacations and get ready for immediate action, the Post reported.”

So it seems clear he knew that:

1. An attack was coming,
2. It involved planes.
3. It was soon.
Correction:

0. There were many intelligence reports from US and non-US agencies making a large variety of claims about a pending attack in the US and beyond; however, I cherry picked a few intelligence reports (without citing them) in order to provide my crafted vision of a fine line of intelligence reports that conform to my strongly held beliefs.
Therefore,
1. An attack was coming,
2. It involved planes.
3. It was soon.


But this what was happening from the decision-makers' viewpoint:
1. An attack may be coming.
2. It may involve planes.
3. It was likely to be soon--whenever that would be.
4. So, presumably* resources were prioritized to deal this possible attack by having the relevant agencies handle it (NSA, CIA, FBI)---which unfortunately bungled it, thus contributing to the occurrence of 9-11, as The Looming Tower carefully explains.

*"Presumably" because I assume the executive ordered this to happen. Had he said, "Don't worry about it, all you employees of the state," then where's the smoking gun? Where are the CIA agents saying, "Gee, we could've stopped 9-11, but Bush told us not to"? (Because that never happened--unless we believe that all the individuals involved in government and in close enough proximity to this event could magically remain silent, and that no profit-seeking freelancer could penetrate this surreal cloud of secrecy).

Intelligence is not a crystal ball--no matter how hard you try to pound it into one.

You're viewing a scenario with the benefit of hindsight, and inappropriately applying that hindsight into the past by creating a phoney stream of select reports which confirm your viewpoint. That's not a good argument.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

67 planes were intercepted in 2001 prior to 9/11.

None on 9/11.

The Pentagon was hit 59 minutes after the initial hijacking. Two airforce bases within a couple minutes away.

You are viewing the scenario in a void, acting as if each aspect is isolated.

Why was plane interception protocol changed during this period? This period of warning of planes being used in imminent terrorist attacks?

Why can we not see a plane when 80 + cameras faced the scene of the Pentagon?

Why was this justification to invade Iraq?

Why was Bin Laden never charged for 9/11?

If you can answer those questions in consideration of the fact that Bush was poopooing the warnings, I will be happy to listen.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by saxitoxin »

The original statement was: President Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened.

_sabotage_'s burden of evidence is to prove that Bush had been informed, prior to September 11, 2001:
  • 1. multiple planes would be hijacked
    2. these planes would be intentionally crashed
    3. the location of the crashes would be the World Trade Center in New York and The Pentagon
    4. items 1-3 would occur on the morning of September 11, 2001
All of these elements have to be proved for the statement to be true. I am willing to grant he's proved #1. Everything else I've seen so far (cameras at the Pentagon were deactivated, Bin Laden wasn't indicted, every 17th letter in Revelations put together spells the phrase 'Bush Did It', etc.) doesn't address points 2-4.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by BigBallinStalin »

_sabotage_ wrote:67 planes were intercepted in 2001 prior to 9/11.

None on 9/11.

The Pentagon was hit 59 minutes after the initial hijacking. Two airforce bases within a couple minutes away.

You are viewing the scenario in a void, acting as if each aspect is isolated.

Why was plane interception protocol changed during this period? This period of warning of planes being used in imminent terrorist attacks?

Why can we not see a plane when 80 + cameras faced the scene of the Pentagon?

Why was this justification to invade Iraq?

Why was Bin Laden never charged for 9/11?

If you can answer those questions in consideration of the fact that Bush was poopooing the warnings, I will be happy to listen.
Nice smoke screen, but you've provided insufficient evidence for the underlined. You're still not providing a good argument.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

You're right, Bush et al are angels, may you ever flourish under the magnificent wings.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by BigBallinStalin »

_sabotage_ wrote:You're right, Bush et al are angels, may you ever flourish under the magnificent wings.
Sorry, sir, but your post belongs in the Accidental Strawmen thread.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by TA1LGUNN3R »

Sabotage:
Bush knew that bin Laden's organization was going to hijack a plane.
Destruction wasn't caused by planes, no planes present.

?

-TG
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

Planes were present, just not at the Pentagon.

Qaeda was a database of CIA assets used to carry out covert warfare against the Soviet Union during the eighties, we now use them in Libya, Syria and other Arab states that we want to carry out regime change in.

The Bush family can be tied to the CIA since it's inception, with Bush Sr quite clearly in charge of the terrorist wing which came out in the Iran contra affair. When Bush was receiving the warnings, it was like one brother tattling on the other to daddy. The anti-terrorist wing was saying that the Qaeda wing was about to cause a ruckus. Bush knew this already, and so just ignored the warnings.

They had two problems to overcome, intercepting planes and the missile defences of the Pentagon. They did the first by revising protocol so the New York bound planes weren't intercepted. They did the second by using a missile on the Pentagon.

I haven't bothered including any evidence since it is just ignored.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by AndyDufresne »

_sabotage_ wrote:#1. Planes were present, just not at the Pentagon.

#2. Qaeda was a database of CIA assets used to carry out covert warfare against the Soviet Union during the eighties, we now use them in Libya, Syria and other Arab states that we want to carry out regime change in.

#3. The Bush family can be tied to the CIA since it's inception, with Bush Sr quite clearly in charge of the terrorist wing which came out in the Iran contra affair. When Bush was receiving the warnings, it was like one brother tattling on the other to daddy. The anti-terrorist wing was saying that the Qaeda wing was about to cause a ruckus. Bush knew this already, and so just ignored the warnings.

#4. They had two problems to overcome, intercepting planes and the missile defences of the Pentagon. They did the first by revising protocol so the New York bound planes weren't intercepted. They did the second by using a missile on the Pentagon.

#5. I haven't bothered including any evidence since it is just ignored.
I've tried to make sense of this, so I used the Bad Translator (works best in Chrome I think), and translated it 27 times in succession:
Bad Translator's Understanding wrote:#1.The car is the Department of Defense, as well.

#2.The CIA, Syria, Libya and Arab Governments war 6/20. Changes in the fight against the Soviet Union.

#3. President George w. Bush participates in a battle of the primary air to raise children, we know that the Bush CIA eshtemo Iran. If the parent assumes that the Bush brothers Tattling. The wizard of Oz, said that the terrorist attacks. Bush ignored tisman and veterinarian.

#4. In the United States, working at the airport and at the ceremony, New York including links to protect the beach as the first phase of the Institute. P and n determines the other missiles in the world.

#5. Don't worry, we can ignore the evidence for each component.
I think the last bit finally hit a breakthrough.


--Andy
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by jonesthecurl »

saxitoxin wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote: You haven't provided a single piece of evidence validating your official story theory,
If I say trees can ride bicycles it's my job to prove it, not your job to find a source that says they can't.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eader.html

A man who spent six years in Guantanamo is now a senior figure in the Libyan rebels’ fight against Colonel Gadaffi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/world ... .html?_r=0

Libyan, Once a Detainee, Is Now a U.S. Ally of Sorts

ABC News article:
"In the 1980s, bin Laden left his comfortable
Saudi home for Afghanistan to participate in the
Afghan jihad, or holy war, against the invading
forces of the Soviet Union - a cause that,
ironically, the United States funded, pouring
$3 billion into the Afghan resistance via the CIA."

They still work for us, they were created by us.

Now if you were intent on hitting up the three largest economic resources in the world, and you happened to have a bunch of trained killers in your pocket, and the only way you could get access to those markets were by having a catalyzing event, and the event was apparently done by your group of trained killers, I would suspect you.

I would also look intently at how bad you got fucked up in the event.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by GeneralRisk »

Who had the most to gain from 9=11??????????????
Israelis
On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attacks would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11




As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question...

Click for full size image

...Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy.





A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.
The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1)

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)

"They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)
[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)
"It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." (7)

One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York's bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here's the transcript from NBC News:
Dispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He's dressed like an Arab. (8)

(*Writer's note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these "Arabs" were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not "sheikh uniforms")


Based on that phone call, police then issued a "Be-on-the-Lookout" alert for a white mini-van heading for the city's bridges and tunnels from New Jersey.
White, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals. (9)
When a van fitting that exact description was stopped just before crossing into New York, the suspicious "middle-easterners" were apprehended. Imagine the surprise of the police officers when these terror suspects turned out to be Israelis!

According to ABC’s 20/20, when the van belonging to the cheering Israelis was stopped by the police, the driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers:
"We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem." (10)

Why did he feel Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD?

The police and FBI field agents became very suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives. (11)
The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (12)




Click for full size

The Jerusalem Post later reported that a white van with a bomb was stopped as it approached the George Washington Bridge, but the ethnicity of the suspects was not revealed. Here's what the Jerusalem Post reported on September 12, 2001:

American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge. The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge. Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported. (13)
"...two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives was discovered around the George Washington Bridge ... The FBI ... says enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge."

WMV video download (545kB)

It was reported the van contained tonnes of explosives (14).

What's really intriguing is that ABC's 20/20 (15), the New York Post (16), and the New Jersey Bergen Record (17) all clearly and unambiguously reported that a white van with Israelis was intercepted on a ramp near Route 3, which leads directly to the Lincoln Tunnel.

But the Jerusalem Post, Israeli National News (Arutz Sheva) (18), and Yediot America, (19) all reported, just as clearly and unambiguously, that a white van with Israelis was stopped on a ramp leading to the George Washington Bridge, which is several miles north of the Lincoln Tunnel.

It appears as if there may actually have been two white vans involved, one stopped on each crossing. This would not only explain the conflicting reports as to the actual location of the arrests, but would also explain how so many credible eye-witnesses all saw celebrating "middle-easterners" in a white van in so many different locations. It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the total to five.

Perhaps one van was meant to drop off a bomb while the other was meant to pick up the first set of drivers while re-crossing back into New Jersey? If a van was to be used as a parked time-bomb on the GW Bridge, then certainly the drivers would need to have a "get-away van" to pick them up and escape. And notice how the van (or vans) stayed away from the third major crossing -the Holland Tunnel- which was where the police had originally been directed to by that anti-Palestinian 9-1-1 "mystery caller". A classic misdirection play.

From there, the story gets becomes even more suspicious. The Israelis worked for a Weehawken moving company known as Urban Moving Systems. An American employee of Urban Moving Systems told the The Record of New Jersey that a majority of his co-workers were Israelis and they were joking about the attacks.
The employee, who declined to give his name said: "I was in tears. These guys were joking and that bothered me." These guys were like, "Now America knows what we go through." (20)

A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System's Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (21).
Suter's departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. (22)

The Jewish weekly The Forward reported that the FBI finally concluded that at least two of the detained Israelis were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. This was confirmed by two former CIA officers, and they noted that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. (23). The Israelis were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. (24)
"There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11." (25)
Several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home. Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." (26)


wmv video download
How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11?

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents - here's the most logical scenario:
1. The Israeli "movers" cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.

2. One of them, or an accomplice, then calls a 9-1-1 police dispatcher to report Palestinian bomb-makers in a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel.

3. Having thus pre-framed the Palestinians with this phone call, the Israeli bombers then head for the George Washington Bridge instead, where they will drop off their time-bomb van and escape with Urban Moving accomplices.

4. But the police react very wisely and proactively by closing off ALL bridges and tunnels instead of just the Holland Tunnel. This move inadvertently foils the Israelis' misdirection play and leads to their own capture and 40 day torture.

5. To cover up this story, the U.S. Justice Department rounds up over 1000 Arabs for minor immigration violations and places them in New York area jails. The Israelis therefore become less conspicuous as the government and media can now claim that the Israelis were just immigration violators caught in the same dragnet as many other Arabs.

6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department "higher-ups" are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly.

Osama bin Laden was immediately blamed for the 9/11 attacks even though he had no previous record of doing anything on this scale. Immediately after the Flight 11 hit World Trade Center 1
CIA Director George Tenet said "You know, this has bin Laden's fingerprints all over it." (27)

The compliant mainstream media completely ignored the Israeli connection. Immediately following the 9-11 attacks the media was filled with stories linking the attacks to bin Laden. TV talking-heads, "experts", and scribblers of every stripe spoon-fed a gullible American public a steady diet of the most outrageous propaganda imaginable.

We were told that the reason bin Laden attacked the USA was because he hates our "freedom" and "democracy". The Muslims were "medieval" and they wanted to destroy us because they envied our wealth, were still bitter about the Crusades, and were offended by Britney Spears shaking her tits and ass all over the place!

But bin Laden strongly denied any role in the attacks and suggested that Zionists orchestrated the
9-11 attacks. The BBC published bin Laden's statement of denial in which he said:
"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." (28)

You never heard that quote on your nightly newscast did you?
[A] number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved. (29)

Bin Laden is not named as the perpetrator of 9/11 by the FBI:

When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page (30), [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” (31)
"So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming" - Dick Cheney. (32)

To date, the only shred of “evidence” to be uncovered against bin Laden is a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find "lying around" in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (33)

There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda "terrorist network" to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America.
"I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government ... It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now" - Senator Bob Graham. (34)

If the sovereign foreign government mentioned by Senator Graham was an enemy of the United States the "compelling evidence" would not be kept secret for 20+ years.

One final point; at 09:40 on 9-11 it was reported that the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attacks (35). This claim was immediately denied by the DFLP leader Qais abu Leila who said it had always opposed "terror attacks on civilian targets, especially outside the occupied territories." (36)

Why would a Palestinian organisation comprising of less than 500 people (37) make the suicidal move of immediately claiming responsibility for the attacks?
Sharon and the other Israeli leaders aspire to fulfil what the goals of the political Zionist movement have been since its origin a century ago: to turn all of historic Palestine into an exclusively Jewish state. A central tenet of the Zionist ideology is expressed in the racist slogan, "A land without people for a people without a land." (38)

The implication of Palestinians in the 9/11 attacks would have handed Zionists a golden opportunity to achieve the above because all Palestinians would have been labelled terrorists.
"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring.


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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by saxitoxin »

_sabotage_ wrote:Qaeda was a database of CIA assets used to carry out covert warfare against the Soviet Union during the eighties


I agree with this because there's a preponderance of evidence and it's been widely and directly documented.
_sabotage_ wrote:we now use them in Libya, Syria and other Arab states that we want to carry out regime change in.


I agree with this inasmuch as "al Qaeda" represents more of an idea than a unified, hierarchically stable, top-down organization.
_sabotage_ wrote:They still work for us, they were created by us.


This is where the first gigantic leap occurs. An arsonist (U.S.) lit my house (Libya) on fire (Al Qaeda). It doesn't follow that the arsonist "controls fire" and that all fire everywhere, forever, will obey the arsonists orders.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

We provided them the weapons, or at least NATO did, quite directly in Libya, less directly in Syria, and covertly in Chechnya, Afghan and others.

If they are using our weapons, and they are cashing our cheques after succeeding in our training programs, and we continue to provide them with cheques, I would suggest they work for us.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by saxitoxin »

_sabotage_ wrote:We provided them the weapons, or at least NATO did, quite directly in Libya, less directly in Syria, and covertly in Chechnya, Afghan and others.

If they are using our weapons, and they are cashing our cheques after succeeding in our training programs, and we continue to provide them with cheques, I would suggest they work for us.
Clearly the Saudis, Qataris, NATO and the Zionists support Al Qaeda. You think that support involves a complex program of nurturing a puppy to adulthood, training it to sic on command. I contend their support is much more simpleton and is just a crude, morally obtuse policy of unchaining a rabid dog and letting it attack anything that moves, in the hope it will bite their enemies a few more times than it will bite themselves.

The evidence for George Bush's advance knowledge of 9/11 comes down to a string of assumptions based on a worldview that perceives patterns in nature as always being the result of sinister forces if no other explanation is available. It's a 21st century version of a witchcraft panic.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

Excellent, so we agree, Bin Laden was a part of Al Qaeda, or a database, as he was a person who would be on it, someone who was trained and had received weapons at one time from the CIA. He was not the leader of it, just had his own little hub that had once been active against the Russians.

So if he isn't the leader of a massive international terrorist network as presented, who was he, who were his followers, who were the people used in 9/11 and how was he able to succeed?

He is a son of Bush family friends and business associates in Saudi Arabia with a failing kidney losing his small fight in Afghanistan.

Who were his followers? A small group of Islamic fundamentalist who thought they could start revolutions.

From what can be seen of the proposed 19 hijackers, they showed no sign of Islamist fundamentalism. They had few skills. They were open and obvious. Some of them had ties to our military, but that is hardly surprising or damning.

Did they all come from the same place? No they came from a wide area. Were they devout? No, they drank, gambled, went to strip clubs.

He was able to succeed because we had no defense that day.

Are we able to agree on these points and move forward?
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by saxitoxin »

_sabotage_ wrote:Excellent, so we agree, Bin Laden was a part of Al Qaeda, or a database, as he was a person who would be on it, someone who was trained and had received weapons at one time from the CIA. He was not the leader of it, just had his own little hub that had once been active against the Russians.

So if he isn't the leader of a massive international terrorist network as presented, who was he, who were his followers, who were the people used in 9/11 and how was he able to succeed?

He is a son of Bush family friends and business associates in Saudi Arabia with a failing kidney losing his small fight in Afghanistan.

Who were his followers? A small group of Islamic fundamentalist who thought they could start revolutions.

From what can be seen of the proposed 19 hijackers, they showed no sign of Islamist fundamentalism. They had few skills. They were open and obvious. Some of them had ties to our military, but that is hardly surprising or damning.

Did they all come from the same place? No they came from a wide area. Were they devout? No, they drank, gambled, went to strip clubs.

He was able to succeed because we had no defense that day.

Are we able to agree on these points and move forward?
Everything highlighted in red, whether true or not, is unrelated to the question as to whether George Bush was warned in advance a plane would crash into the WTC during the 8:00 hour September 11, 2001.
  • Again, you're taking disjointed pieces of information and self-arranging them into patterns you contend can only be explained through the action of sinister, unseen forces. The goal is to create a sense of mystery. It's the same reason Alex Jones plays spooky synthesizer music beneath his YouTube videos or Jesse Ventura shoots his TV show in a room with all the lights turned off or Luke Rudkowski dresses like he's on his way to a gay porn shoot.
  • Evidence is mutually supporting documentation and witness testimony. Evidence is not unexplained coincidences (except in the Salem Witch Trials).
Everything highlighted in green is sophistry needed to contribute to the sense of mystery. For the last ten years, MSM and the USG have fallen over themselves claiming Al Qaeda is a decentralized, cell-based organization. I can't recall a single instance in which OBL was presented as "the [functional] leader of a massive international terrorist network."
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

Wow, now you are back to organization, when you had just admitted it was a database.

Which is it? Are the Libyan Al Qaeda that we gave weapons to to overthrow Qaddafi and who are currently using them to wage war in Mali, in an organization with Bin Laden or in a database with him?
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by saxitoxin »

_sabotage_ wrote:Wow, now you are back to organization, when you had just admitted it was a database.
I just did a CTRL+F search on the last two pages and I haven't used the word "database" nor am I even sure what it means.
  • Again, similar to your "the leader of a massive international terrorist network as presented", this is how the conspiracy theory is built. It's a series of verifiable facts seamlessly linked except for a few gaps. The gaps are filled by things that sound like they could be true, even if there's no evidence for them, or - in fact - contra-evidence.
I believe that 2+2=4. You believe that 2+2=4 but equations that are just one or two numbers off - like 1+2, or 3+0 - could, potentially, also equal 4.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by _sabotage_ »

Ok, thank you for whatever that was, back to my question, Are the Libyan Al Qaeda that we gave weapons to to overthrow Qaddafi and who are currently using them to wage war in Mali, in an organization with Bin Laden or in a database with him?
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by john9blue »

can i ask why lots of people in this thread react with such hostility to conspiracy theories? what threat do they pose to you? are you afraid that someone might know something that you don't? are you afraid that what you think you know might be wrong? are you afraid of alternative lines of inquiry into an event? do you only have the balls to insult people for being wrong when you severely outnumber them?

i mean you people just accept the official story and then spew your usual bullshit about how the "burden of proof isn't on you" when someone makes an alternative hypothesis. learn to defend your own opinions, you fucking sheep. i don't necessarily agree with most of what sabotage is posting... but most of the people in this thread are utterly retarded.
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Re: 2/3 of Americans Believe in Conspiracy Theories

Post by BigBallinStalin »

J9B, we thank you for your criticism. Surely, you agree that conspiracy theories must be rigorously tested, and the assumptions of each argument should be stated clearly, which has been my goal ITT.

I admit that some conspiracy theories have merit, but sometimes particular claims require further inquiry, so that we can prevent our imaginations from masking speculation under the guise of certainty.
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