Education in the USA

[Symmetry]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Actually if you look at educational systems in other countries, degrees are absolutely necessary. The only problem in the US is that the quality and the costs are getting worse and worse.

I know someone who came back as an exchange student from the US. He said the US College education was of abysmal quality. If you look up statements from famous university teachers like Nial Ferguson or Michio Kaku. You'll find out they are saying the exact same thing. The US educational system is dropping in quality. Harvard, MIT and all those other famous institutes are the exceptions.

A good degree from a good university in the US is world class, as you indicate. When you start hitting the second tier, standards vary wildly. The third tier- say most state universities, a British Master's degree will get you most of the way toward a doctorate. The fourth tier... well, I'd have been Dr Sym at undergraduate level.

[saxitoxin]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Actually if you look at educational systems in other countries, degrees are absolutely necessary. The only problem in the US is that the quality and the costs are getting worse and worse.

I know someone who came back as an exchange student from the US. He said the US College education was of abysmal quality. If you look up statements from famous university teachers like Nial Ferguson or Michio Kaku. You'll find out they are saying the exact same thing. The US educational system is dropping in quality. Harvard, MIT and all those other famous institutes are the exceptions.

A good degree from a good university in the US is world class, as you indicate. When you start hitting the second tier, standards vary wildly. The third tier- say most state universities, a British Master's degree will get you most of the way toward a doctorate. The fourth tier... well, I'd have been Dr Sym at undergraduate level.

[Woodruff]

College Conspiracy is the most comprehensive documentary ever produced about higher education in the U.S. The film exposes the facts and truth about America's college education system. 'College Conspiracy' was produced over a six-month period by NIA's team of expert Austrian economists with the help of thousands of NIA members who contributed their ideas and personal stories for the film. NIA believes the U.S. college education system is a scam that turns vulnerable young Americans into debt slaves for life.

Ok, I don't particularly disagree with that, especially that last sentence. Yet. that really has nothing to do with a liberal conspiracy.

[Woodruff]

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Yes. His topic-relevant point was that he wanted to try to distract from thegreekdog's acceptance of him trying to call thegreekdog out.

[Lootifer]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Actually if you look at educational systems in other countries, degrees are absolutely necessary.

I live in an "other country" and thats what I am basing my opinion on.

Too many people do useless degrees when they would be better off getting on the job training, apprenticeships, limited length diplomas (1-2 years), or postponing formal tertiary education until later in their career. This is simply due to the fact we over-subsidise tertiary education (and likely under-subsidise primary and secondary level education).

Unless you are smart enough to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, academic/researcher, or other intellectually demanding professional then personally I believe there are far more efficient and lower cost avenues available.

[thegreekdog]

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Yes. His topic-relevant point was that he wanted to try to distract from thegreekdog's acceptance of him trying to call thegreekdog out.

Weird, I thought he was saying I was a member of that organization or something.

[Woodruff]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Actually if you look at educational systems in other countries, degrees are absolutely necessary.

I live in an "other country" and thats what I am basing my opinion on.

Too many people do useless degrees when they would be better off getting on the job training, apprenticeships, limited length diplomas (1-2 years), or postponing formal tertiary education until later in their career. This is simply due to the fact we over-subsidise tertiary education (and likely under-subsidise primary and secondary level education).

Unless you are smart enough to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, academic/researcher, or other intellectually demanding professional then personally I believe there are far more efficient and lower cost avenues available.

This is a constant battle I'm seeing in the high schools. The colleges, of course, want "everybody should go to college" to be the mantra. After all, it's their breadbasket. The counselors recognize that there are some kids who simply have no business going to college...their skills clearly lie in the trade industries. But even the counselors can fall into that trap with borderline kids and push them toward college. It's really become such an EXPECTATION for high school students that I find it very frustrating. I know the "good" behind it, and that is that they want everyone to succeed to their highest potential. I get that. But for some, their highest potential has nothing to do with higher education, and there is nothing insulting about that.

[BigBallinStalin]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Do any of the government subsidies into education have anything to do with that?

If so, then I wonder what's causing the over-valuing here?

EDIT: nvm, I think your last post answered that.

[Woodruff]

Frankly, it is the GI Bill which started this whole problem with the expense of college tuition and wanting everyone to attend college.

Before that, universities were pretty happy with being "elitist" and all that rot. But when the GI Bill rolled around and all of these military guys started going to college using it, the universities began to realize what kind of money could be made by getting everyone in there. And off they ran...

In my opinion anyway.

And that's not a complaint about the GI Bill. I think it's a wonderful program, frankly.

[PLAYER57832]

Frankly, it is the GI Bill which started this whole problem with the expense of college tuition and wanting everyone to attend college.

Before that, universities were pretty happy with being "elitist" and all that rot. But when the GI Bill rolled around and all of these military guys started going to college using it, the universities began to realize what kind of money could be made by getting everyone in there. And off they ran...

In my opinion anyway.

And that's not a complaint about the GI Bill. I think it's a wonderful program, frankly.

You have a point, but I think you are missing what else happened about that time and the result. Its not just that the GI bill encouraged "average" guys (and it was almost all guys) to attend college, but the changing economy and demands opened up a lot of jobs that needed or that were perceived to need, a college degree.

A lot of men did go straight into industry, into well paid labor or mechanical/technical jobs as well as the growth in college. That entire picture has now changed. The jobs that pay well and don't require a degree are not as prevalent as in the past and tend to be more "risky", often self employment jobs like domestic plumbing or electrician. Some of those trades are found in industry, but even so, a mechanic is generally paid less than most of the white collar employees. Even though maintenance/electronic jobs may pay twice the "pink collar" professions in the same company, they still don't garner the income of a typical degreed job. Plus, degreed jobs are often percieved to have more "styaing" power, though it certainly depends on the degree!

Also, there is a WIDE gap between getting a basic degree, a Master's degree and a PhD or MD. Many employers want people to have a degree, no matter really what the subject, simply because there are skills in thinking/research and the ability to consider a wider knowledge base that one gets through a basic college degree. In fact, a move among some corporations now is to have their new recruits, MBAs or whatever essentially get a mini liberal arts degree, because they find that their hires are very technically skilled, but lacking in wide experience or the ability to really think about various options.

[tzor]

Frankly, it is the GI Bill which started this whole problem with the expense of college tuition and wanting everyone to attend college.

Yet a lot of WWII veterans used the GI Bill to get into a trade school.

This is a really complicated problem; but the biggest problem of all is the money that drives the system in the form of loans which are now exclusively the domain of the Federal Government.

Clearly, not everyone needs to go to college. But there are options that can and should come into play. There was an evolving relationship between four year colleges and two year colleges where a student could get a massive break in tuition by attending a community college whose courses were exactly the same as the four year college and whose credits were easily accepted.

Trade schools are honest options. You might be surprised at what jobs are in demand because no one thinks of them; but everyone basically needs them at one point or the other.

[Phatscotty]

Sorry I can watch youtubes at work. But thanks for the link anyway. Just checking out http://inflation.us/collegeconspiracyreleased.html instead, gives a nice little dialog that covers the doco.

It's a nice rhetoric and one that I, on a fundamental level, agree with: Too many people are getting college/university degrees when they do not require them and the market has essentially over-valued them by a significant margin.

However this has no relevance on the topic of this thread, was there a [topic relevant] point to your post?

Like I said, there is not going to be a smoking gun, where I can show you a video where all the heads of the universities in tandem with the media and corporations, stand up, look at the camera, say their name, and then say what their agenda is, which would be brainwashing Leftism/indoctrination. It's not gonna happen that way.

The best I can do is to show smaller details, and how some of them fit together with others, and in the end they will all point in one direction. It won't be proven, but you would have to fly in the face of the facts in order to say the opposite was true. The fact is we all know universities are dominated by leftists, I only add that universities, after generations of being dominated by leftism, have become Left wing seminaries. There are only a few exceptions.

As you point out, yes too many people are in college (while I think it's roughly 50% that actually get a degree), but that is only half of it. The relevant part is, where is the push coming from to do this and how we pay for it, and who are all the students indebted to, and why does the government do it? What is the goal?

Here is a great example of leftism/class warfare being pushed by Leftists, put together by the California teachers union/Federation of teachers, the largest teachers union in the country, and thee biggest donor to politicians. Some even make the claim the teacher's unions run the government in California. Which of course, decides what the students study and what narrative will be programmed at a systemic level, if you want money for your school that is.

[Lootifer]

I agree, that clip has plenty of weaknesses, and is pure propaganda. But hey we both have idiots on both sides right?

Any misinformed idiot can make some propaganda; but its the outcome that you must look at (for example, the critique of that clip has more views than the original clip; pretty sure sign that the propaganda is falling flat on its face lol).

[Woodruff]

Like I said, there is not going to be a smoking gun, where I can show you a video where all the heads of the universities in tandem with the media and corporations, stand up, look at the camera, say their name, and then say what their agenda is, which would be brainwashing Leftism/indoctrination. It's not gonna happen that way.

Of course it isn't, because it doesn't exist.

The best I can do is to show smaller details, and how some of them fit together with others, and in the end they will all point in one direction.

The best you've been able to do so far is state conspiracy theories with no backing at all.

It won't be proven, but you would have to fly in the face of the facts in order to say the opposite was true.

No one is claiming the opposite, because that would be just as stupid.

The fact is we all know universities are dominated by leftists, I only add that universities, after generations of being dominated by leftism, have become Left wing seminaries. There are only a few exceptions.

There really is no evidence of this, no.

As you point out, yes too many people are in college (while I think it's roughly 50% that actually get a degree), but that is only half of it. The relevant part is, where is the push coming from to do this and how we pay for it, and who are all the students indebted to, and why does the government do it? What is the goal?

Money. Duh. It isn't rocket science.

Here is a great example of leftism/class warfare being pushed by Leftists, put together by the California teachers union/Federation of teachers, the largest teachers union in the country, and thee biggest donor to politicians. Some even make the claim the teacher's unions run the government in California. Which of course, decides what the students study and what narrative will be programmed at a systemic level, if you want money for your school that is.

That video would be embarrassing to anyone attempting real propoganda.

[Woodruff]

Temporarily hijacking this thread, because it doesn't seem worth it's own thread:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2013 ... 705259921/

1. I didn't realize that BK Barunt was a high school teacher!

2. Surveys with students names on them? That is a recipe for not finding out anything informative at all, making this a useless survey. Students aren't stupid.

3. This teacher absolutely did the right thing. It's ridiculous that he would face censorship or punishment for this.

4. I like that the teacher is trying to keep it from blowing up. Good on him. But I don't know how the actions against him could possibly be seen as being "in the best interests of the students".

[Phatscotty]

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

As parents in several states have stood up against standardized education such as Common Core and CSCOPE, one teacher in the Chicago area (Highland Park) has taken a similar (although not necessarily directly related) stand that is now going viral.

Last week, 15-year teaching veteran Ellie Rubenstein posted a 10-minute YouTube video where she decried the state of test-centric eduction after the district she was working in said it was going to be transferring her and several other teachers– a move she says came because those teachers were vocal about their issues and one she says the district has attributed to concerns over the school’s “poor climate.”

“I have experienced the depressing, gradual downfall and misdirection of education that has slowly eaten away at my love of teaching.”
“The emphasis in eduction has shifted from fostering academic and personal growth in both students and teachers, to demanding uniformity and conformity.”
“Raising students’ test scores on standardized tests is now the only goal, and in order to achieve it the creativity, flexibility and spontaneity … have been eliminated.”
“Everything I loved about teaching is extinct.”
“Curriculum is mandated. … The classroom teacher is no longer trusted or in control of what, when, or how she teaches.”
She says complaint forms and write-ups are being used as tools to target teachers and keep them as “yes men,” instead of being used to get rid of poor educators — and she even takes a shot at the union.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/05 ... education/

[Lootifer]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

[Phatscotty]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

[Symmetry]

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

One of the first lessons one learns in English class is that context is everything. The same holds true in Spanish.
Take the case of Petrona Smith. She says in a lawsuit that she was fired from teaching at Bronx PS 211 in March 2012 after a seventh-grader reported that she'd used the "N" word, according to The New York Post.
'Negro.'
Smith doesn't deny using the word. But she argues that everyone uses it, when speaking Spanish. She was teaching the Spanish words for different colors, and the color "black" in Spanish is "negro." She also taught the junior high school students, in this bilingual school, that the Spanish term for black people is "moreno." And by the way, Smith, who is from the West Indies, is black.
Context is everything.

http://news.yahoo.com/fired-word-negro- ... 16980.html

[Phatscotty]

[Symmetry]

Obviously you were saving that gif for Woodruff, but you spent your load prematurely and to no bodies satisfaction. Has this happened to you before?

[Lootifer]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

I get you point but I think you are misreading the context of what that article is about.

You seem to be picking out a comment that supports your argument, yet the context of her comment is in no way relevant.

I agree that common core (i.e. standardization of education) is "demanding uniformity and conformity". But that is quite different to your argument (while the english sounds the same).

If anything standardization actually goes against both flavours of the liberal agenda (the libartarian flavour and the liberal left flavour).

(Nifty little opinion piece that I mostly agree with: http://aphilosopher.wordpress.com/2008/ ... education/)

[Phatscotty]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

I get you point but I think you are misreading the context of what that article is about.

You seem to be picking out a comment that supports your argument, yet the context of her comment is in no way relevant.

I agree that common core (i.e. standardization of education) is "demanding uniformity and conformity". But that is quite different to your argument (while the english sounds the same).

If anything standardization actually goes against both flavours of the liberal agenda (the libartarian flavour and the liberal left flavour).

(Nifty little opinion piece that I mostly agree with: http://aphilosopher.wordpress.com/2008/ ... education/)

Sure I picked out a comment that supports my argument. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not trying to make it more than it is. Whatever she is talking about, concerning my specific comment, she basically repeated it and it's meaning.

Standardization could go against both flavors, but it won't. There is too much on the line for any honest reform. And it's working so well, I view commoncore as a consolidation of the leftist control. I mean, the government just monopolized all student loans, they are in the business now. They aren't going to "free up" education for real reform...on the contrary, they are locking it down.

[Lootifer]

Standardization could go against both flavors, but it won't. There is too much on the line for any honest reform. And it's working so well, I view commoncore as a consolidation of the leftist control. I mean, the government just monopolized all student loans, they are in the business now. They aren't going to "free up" education for real reform...on the contrary, they are locking it down.

Sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory and not a lot like a logical argument.

Standardization is an authoritarian concept. You are going to have to explain to me (or show me) why anyone liberal would be in support of such a regieme... (considering authoritarianism is the antithesis liberalism).

Sure this may very well be a government control thing; but my argument has never been about government control in this thread. I my question is the prevelance of liberal indoctrination, not governmental indoctrination.

And before you say they are the same thing i'll refer you to the above point: "Standardization is an authoritarian concept". That pretty clearly shows that they are not.

[Phatscotty]

Standardization could go against both flavors, but it won't. There is too much on the line for any honest reform. And it's working so well, I view commoncore as a consolidation of the leftist control. I mean, the government just monopolized all student loans, they are in the business now. They aren't going to "free up" education for real reform...on the contrary, they are locking it down.

Sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory and not a lot like a logical argument.

Standardization is an authoritarian concept. You are going to have to explain to me (or show me) why anyone liberal would be in support of such a regieme... (considering authoritarianism is the antithesis liberalism).

Sure this may very well be a government control thing; but my argument has never been about government control in this thread. I my question is the prevelance of liberal indoctrination, not governmental indoctrination.

And before you say they are the same thing i'll refer you to the above point: "Standardization is an authoritarian concept". That pretty clearly shows that they are not.

Whoever is in power. The issue transcends party. I don't care what side anyone is on, they are going to want to indoctrinate whatever ideology further progresses their power. Leftism is bigger than that, and I and others have argued Leftism is currently enjoying religion/worship status, promoted on all fronts (media, education, hollywood, culture, sports, government).

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”