[ACC Round 2] 1st Reg. v. AOD [25-24] of 51pts - Final

[QoH]

Wow... 4 in a row...

[jpcloet]

However much you guys go on, the following isn't going to happen:

(1) Retrospective action due to GG being slow making/joining in the first place.

(2) The agreed re-make of the poker game being de-agreed and becoming void, with the actual poker game being de-voided and therefore a complete 180 degree change of the agreement and all concerned's decisions.

(3) A new rule about deadbeating to be introduced retrospectively.

(4) A fictional version of the FOW rule to be used where GG lose all games they started early in but didn't attack their opponent.

(5) The tie-breaker game to be counted even though there is no tie to break.

(6) Any other turnaround of rules or previous decisions.

Posted for historical accuracy. At least one of these could still happen.

[jpcloet]

I sat on my ass following up your false accusations of FOW violations thanks.

False in your interpretation, I can claim all games were in violation, but it is your job to look and determine if it happened. We only got into the FOW issue because of you, I'm assuming you appreciate the irony. Maybe not.

And the League comment is really a cheap shot at who was running it. I was not the one doing most of the work. I may have been the figure head, but more than just I was involved.

[pearljamrox2]

This is part of the problem that the CLA has been working on. There is no standard 12H Courtesy Rule definition. Everytime AOD's been asked/forced to use it, there have been problems of some sort. We were going to let the 12H violations slide until the Poker game essentially corrupted and decided the war which is not fair to either team. An advantage was gained, so I would have preferred the game to be voided. However, DJ indicated he would not do that, so our only avenue to create a fair outcome was to invoke the 12H rule violations.

DJ's ACC thread states a very generic, and has no reference to the current CLA definition which is not approved yet:

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

Something this generic will be left to interpretations.

I've been trying to stay out of this discussion so bad. I tried so hard. I failed!
This post says alot to me. It says we are going to lose. So now I'm gonna try everything i can do to win on any technicality I can find. And the bold part? Your words..page 5.

The 12H rule in the ACC is not the same as the CLA's definition, and one should not jump to that conclusion with faulty logic.

The only reason we are talking about the rule is because DJ won't void the Poker game, and made very weak allowances for you guys showing up late to games. You did not get penalized in any way previously and still have not. DJ gave you guys so much leeway, and then AOD gets screwed on a deadbeat. I had to play a 1v1 where you could not win, but I had to win to get the point. I still won even with that.

It pains me that a war has to come down to a decision like this. It's crap like this that means more an more clans are sitting out events, I'd rather play real wars where we controls the rules like timing out etc. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that you won based on Poker and the letter of law is what gets me more. You are responsible for you clan members actions (better or for worse). That game should be voided IMO.

Page 6 anyone? Again..after 4 pages of a war thread where people are being civil, and talking about what a good close war it is..getting excited with each big win..and then suddenly..jumping up and down about how poker should be voided. The only reason you are talking about the rule is because poker wont be voided!!!!! Oh my god! Those are YOUR WORDS!!

If the 12 hr rule is defined in a generic fashion, does that not generally mean that the official CLA rule is the accepted standard?

Again, No, you are jumping to a conclusion.

We should replay poker only. Can you manage to get all players in and not have one deadbeat again, or would you need a replacement player?

Page 6 again....asking for the game to be remade. That was your suggestion.

So we would Random map Quads with the same teams as the Poker Club game (apart from a possible deadbeat swap). I didn't specify the settings (again, will do for future), they will therefore be: Escalating, Unlimited, Sunny

Sounds fair although Unlimited is a very unusual setting. Chained would be much better as that is what most clans including these 2 used.

Page 7....after DJ makes the suggestion.....SOUNDS FAIR....and you even got your request for chained forts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if it was well-handled at all. A regular tournament game is being voided that has not even finished...What sense does that make?

I would be certainly impressed if you could win Poker now. Make it happen and we can void the remade game lol.

still page 7. notice the lol. Even you thought it was laugh out loud funny to stick with the poker game that you made such a stink about having voided!!!!

With the GG slow playing and the indecisive TO, I didn't have much of a choice. If we waited on poker to finish and then find GG won because of the deadbeat, then we'd probably be screwed for time. Fact is the better decision would have been to void Poker and use the tie-breaker. But that was not chosen so we will have to live with the outcome. GG can think they won all they want, but the better team doesn't always win. If Poker finishes and the replay game takes forever, maybe DJ will have to change his mind.

Now (page 9)your clanmates are mad because the game was voided. And it becomes everyone else's fault except yours that the game was voided. Yea, sure. Let's just make up a rule that the tie-breaker game that has already finished (and won by AOD) can be substituted for a game that you thought you might lose so you had voided.

This is nothing but sour grapes. No class, sore losing. Looking to win on a technicality because, games started late..no wait...fog rule issues...no wait...only bringing that up because a deadbeat....no wait....we won that game but lost the remake that just 2 pages before I said "sounds fair".

Guys....you lose! suck it up! It is absolutely ridiculous the way you are carrying on against DJ and this tournament. It's too bad poker club didn't count. AOD...if you MUST be mad at someone..you know who to be mad at! But don't be too hard on him. He was just trying to make sure you didn't lose. Kinda ironic, huh?

What did you want him to do? You repeatedly said how unfair it was that the game wasn't voided. So he did what you wanted. You agreed to the terms of the remake. And now you are blasting him because YOU LOST. Now seriously....STFU already!!!!

[jpcloet]

Now seriously....STFU already!!!!

Feel free to stop reading the thread if it bothers you that much.

The chained forts was to mitigate any further damage. Who the f picks unlimited forts as a replay option? He couldn't even get the replay right. And fair is in terms of well, you couldn't do the right thing, so fair is as fair is going to be. The whole 12H issue was started by DJ via pm, and has essentially made us look like we chased that rule. He asked me via pm twice to go after that rule. I didn't give a rats ass about the 12H. Fact is the argument was void Poker and use the tie-breaker. DJ can manage to interpret the 12H rule, but goes hardcore letter of the law on the use of a tie-break only in the event of a tie-break.

[pearljamrox2]

Feel free to have your clanmates not post in the main thread about how it is a sham.

[AgentSmith88]

However much you guys go on, the following isn't going to happen:

(1) Retrospective action due to GG being slow making/joining in the first place.

This is my sticking point. There wouldn't have to be any retrospective action if you followed the rules you posted. As I've already said, I don't care about the outcome at this point - you can start round 3 tomorrow with GG moving on that's fine (but jp is gonna fight you the whole way, if only to prove a point).

At least we learned from this experience that we will not be joining any more clan tournies.

[AgentSmith88]

Feel free to have your clanmates not post in the main thread about how it is a sham.

You're awfully fussy for a guy with an avatar giving everyone the finger.

[peanutsdad]

pearljamrox2, what he said, +1,+2.+3. etc etc etc....
Jp, seriously, your beating a dead horse here and it's making you and AOD look even worse with every post. Let it go. Normally, I wouldn't have even come to look at this thread, but you personally asked me to take a look at it. I did, and gave you my thoughts in private, then you asked me to come back again and look at as it wasn't done yet. My first thoughts on it that i sent you in the pm were that DJ did what he could to resolve the issues brought to him with the rules that were in place, you wanted the poker game voided, you got the poker game voided, turned out to be a bad decision in the end, but that's the way it ended up. After reading the 13th and 14th pages as you requested I felt I should go ahead and post as well. It's a game guys, and while bragging rights will always come into these things, we all need to remember it's a game, issues will come up, those in charge, this time DJ will do what ever they can to fix/correct the issues, but fact is, nothing is perfect, but we learn from each situation. let it go and move on.

[chemefreak]

Okay, here we go:

1. This is a clan tournament. The tournament organizer is in charge of making and enforcing the rules unless he/she requests CD assistance or a ruling is in contravention of tournament, CD, or CC rules. Here, no assistance was requested here by the TO from the CDs so his decisions are final and none of his decisions were in contravention of the rules of this tournament, rules promulgated by the CDs, or CC.

2. With that being said, several participants in this tournament match-up have asked the CDs to intervene. So here goes:

-Was 1RFG late joining games? Yes. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it the type of infraction that should result in games being forfeited under the tournament rules? No. Accordingly, the TOs decision in this regard was appropriate.

-Did 1RFG violate the "12H Fog Rule"? Yes. Did it cause injury to AoD? No. The bottom line is that in the games where the rule was violated one of the following happened: (a) 1RFG posted the moves in the game chat; (b) AoD did not request/remind [as a courtesy which is what this rule is] that 1RFG post the move in the chat; (c) AoD joined LAST and therefore should have already had a snapshot; and/or (d) AoD eventually won the game. Accordingly, the fog violations resulted in no unfair advantage and thus, forfeits or other penalties were not appropriate and the TOs decision in this regard was appropriate.

-Did the missed turns in a "no spoils" game break a tournament rule? No. The rule was specifically put in place to avoid the intentional missing of turns in a nuclear game to avoid getting the final card. If the argument were made that this should apply to flat rate and escalating I would have to agree even with the knowledge that it was put in place for the nuclear issue only. However, the game at issue was a "no spoils" game. Thus, since the rule only applied to games WITH spoils, the rule was not broken by 1RFG. Accordingly, the TOs decision in this regard was appropriate.

-Was AoD forced to agree to void the Poker game and play a new random quads game? This one is difficult for us. We CDs have a tremendous amount of respect for jpcloet. We have reviewed the evidence provided regarding this agreement and have come to the conclusion (based on the evidence provided) that there was no coercion and that both voiding the Poker game and the selection of a random quads game was a decision made freely by all involved. Additionally, the decision to do this does not violate the tournament rules.

As an aside, this war was highly competitive and looked extremely enjoyable until the very end. Both clans should be commended on their grit and efforts in this war. Also, the remarks in the last few pages of this thread should be viewed as "heat of the battle" statements and taken within their proper context.

Now, since this thread is getting a little bit off topic, and we want everyone to see this ruling, we are going to lock this thread for about 12 Hours or so. In the meantime, we will focus on getting the privs for the next round of this tournament issued.

[chemefreak]

Moved to completed. No medals issued.