Poll on Marriage and the Secularization of it

[comic boy]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

God is irrelevent to the discussion , people are turning away from the rigid rules of religious institutions. Failed marriages in themselves are unimportant , whats important is the upbringing of the next generation and there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

[daddy1gringo]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

God is irrelevent to the discussion , people are turning away from the rigid rules of religious institutions. Failed marriages in themselves are unimportant , whats important is the upbringing of the next generation and there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

Staying together in a stable, loving relationship improves parenting skills.

[Upgrayedd]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

God is irrelevent to the discussion , people are turning away from the rigid rules of religious institutions. Failed marriages in themselves are unimportant , whats important is the upbringing of the next generation and there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

This is a bunch of sophistry. "Certificates and religious blessings"? No those don't improve parenting skills. But paternal guidance and Christian values do. With no-fault divorce and rejection of Christian faith we've seen a decline in both of those things. Welcome to the world of thug lyfe, school shootings and emasculated man-children who never grew up.

[AndyDufresne]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

God is irrelevent to the discussion , people are turning away from the rigid rules of religious institutions. Failed marriages in themselves are unimportant , whats important is the upbringing of the next generation and there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

Staying together in a stable, loving relationship improves parenting skills.

Improving parenting skills (something active) seems like a stretch, but improving the atmosphere (something more passive) for any children growing up seems more in line.

This is a bunch of sophistry. "Certificates and religious blessings"? No those don't improve parenting skills. But paternal guidance and Christian values do. With no-fault divorce and rejection of Christian faith we've seen a decline in both of those things. Welcome to the world of thug lyfe, school shootings and emasculated man-children who never grew up.

Ethics can be decoupled from religion. One of course can still be be a helpful and good citizen or parent, using moral philosophy in general.


--Andy

[GreecePwns]

What Andy said. The idea that this only has to do with a movement away from Christianity and Christian values is slightly arrogant. You'd likely see the same trends in other faiths in North America as well. Those values are not exclusive to Christianity.

There are plenty of secular reasons as well, which the position of Upgrayedd and daddy1gringo does not cover.

[comic boy]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

God is irrelevent to the discussion , people are turning away from the rigid rules of religious institutions. Failed marriages in themselves are unimportant , whats important is the upbringing of the next generation and there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

Staying together in a stable, loving relationship improves parenting skills.

Absolutely it does but a couple in a civil partnership have just the same opportunity to build such a relationship , the religious aspect of a wedding guarantees nothing extra in this respect.

[PLAYER57832]

I can't actually vote in the poll, because I believe that the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

Exactly, on both points, but phattscotty's world depends on blaming essentially all bad things in society on too much government.

That said, I believe you recognize that Christianity itself changed the definition of marriage, and has done so throughout time.. whether you agree or disagree with those changes. Even within our own country, the church has changed marriage quite a bit in just this past century.

[daddy1gringo]

...there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

Staying together in a stable, loving relationship improves parenting skills.

Improving parenting skills (something active) seems like a stretch, but improving the atmosphere (something more passive) for any children growing up seems more in line.

That was kind of a sound-byte response to what comic boy said. Though my long-term stable, loving relationship with my wife has indeed improved my parenting skills, as I hope it has hers, you're right, that is not the point. The point is that the stable, loving relationship itself, which is what this thread is about, makes a huge difference for the children.

This is a bunch of sophistry. "Certificates and religious blessings"? No those don't improve parenting skills. But paternal guidance and Christian values do. With no-fault divorce and rejection of Christian faith we've seen a decline in both of those things. Welcome to the world of thug lyfe, school shootings and emasculated man-children who never grew up.

Ethics can be decoupled from religion. One of course can still be be a helpful and good citizen or parent, using moral philosophy in general.


--Andy

upgrayedd specifically mentioned "Christian values", I just said this:

...the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

Now face it, 50 years ago when divorce was a rarity and society wasn't as generally sick, the prevailing "non-secular" thing in the U.S. (and western European culture) was Christianity, so "secularization" meant moving away from that. I suppose Jewish people becoming more secularized also contributed to the ills of society, but if the Zoroastrians and Thor worshipers have become more secularized, I doubt that has had much effect on the national divorce rate.

Yes, obviously, it is theoretically possible to abandon Christianity, or any religious belief, and yet to live a non-me-centered philosophy. For the purposes of this thread, that means a philosophy that allows people to put others above themselves enough to put the marriage, your spouse, the children, and your given word before the fact that you don't feel happy right now, and work out your problems instead of running. It means a moral compass and anchor that you can pass on to your children where they will build up society rather than tearing it down or blowing it up.

"Ethics can be decoupled from religion" philosophically, and theoretically we should be able to do that. But the experience of the last 50 years is that as a nation, a culture, and a (human) race, we don't. That's my point, and I believe it is evidence that what we have abandoned is not so silly, outdated, and expendable as we thought.

[GreecePwns]

We are all in agreement, it seems, with subtle differences. Certain ethics from 50 years ago have been abandoned and replaced with a society that increasingly favors promiscuity and acceptance of alternative lifestyles to the stereotypical "American dream."

What caused these changes? To Upgrayedd and daddygringo, what specifically caused people to turn away from God?

EDIT: I could've sworn there was a post below mine saying "rationalism and leftism."

[PLAYER57832]

We are all in agreement, it seems, with subtle differences. Certain ethics from 50 years ago have been abandoned and replaced with a society that increasingly favors promiscuity and acceptance of alternative lifestyles to the stereotypical "American dream."

What caused these changes? To Upgrayedd and daddygringo, what specifically caused people to turn away from God?

EDIT: I could've sworn there was a post below mine saying "rationalism and leftism."

Societies always change to meet new demands. Churches wind up following the changes or changing society. When churches take the fore, it is worrisome, because it very often is the extremists who demand and get the change. That is, as we see here, folks in the extreme are successful in painting themselves as the "only faithful" and everyone else as "unfaithful".. and make people choose between "faith" and "infidels".

The biggest changes in our society today have come because of industrialization/transportation, which allowed men [first] to take jobs other than agriculture or a few other occupations and then later for women to do the same.

Another major reason was better health care, particularly for women and access to birth control/birth knowledge and abortions. (all part of women's healthcare). Prior to the advent of increasing the safety/access to all of those, many women died or were severely injured in childbirth and/or were just too busy raising all their children to possibly do much else outside the home, unless they were pretty wealthy and able to have servants and the like. Even today, many women die or are seriously injured. Rates of these problems are going up particularly in states where these procedures areno longer as freely available as they were in the past decade or two.

Beyond that, while a lot of modern Conservative Christians like to refer to "God's model" and such, they are really only referring to the past 200 years or so. Before that, things were very, very different indeed! Niether men nor women had much choice in anything. Wealthy men has more choice, but still pretty limited by today's standards.

[GreecePwns]

So, these changes aren't necessarily a bad thing, they're simply changes, is what you're saying?

[PLAYER57832]

So, these changes aren't necessarily a bad thing, they're simply changes, is what you're saying?

Some changes are good, some are bad. The debate is always over which is which.. and how to correct the percieved bad.

For example, I don't really think anyone would say divorce is a "good" thing. On the other hand, I think most of us (at least we here) recognize that sometimes getting a divorce is better than staying married. The point is to try and prevent marriages from getting into that category. But, even ideas on how to do that change over time. In the past, one answer has been laws. Women without rights tend to stay with their husbands, even if they technically have the ability to divorce (just as an example). Today, things like pre marital counseling are more likely the answer. There is a segment within churches that basically wants to say "pray on it". That type of answer gets pretty complicated and, depending on the context can be helpful or very, very destructive. ( a man/women saying they are "just not happy" might well benefit from prayer; A battered woman who barely managed to escape with her life and her kids... needs more practical help).

I won't go on because, as you said, I think we all agree and this is going way off topic.

[PLAYER57832]

"Ethics can be decoupled from religion" philosophically, and theoretically we should be able to do that. But the experience of the last 50 years is that as a nation, a culture, and a (human) race, we don't. That's my point, and I believe it is evidence that what we have abandoned is not so silly, outdated, and expendable as we thought.

Are you really sure about that?

I think we can point to the church causing harm as much as good in many cases. This is, of course, because churches (unlike faiths) are made up of very fallible human beings.

In fact, its often the recently "cured"/saved who often wind up causing the most harm.

[Phatscotty]

i am afraid you are incorrect. historically, marriages and marriage law all over the world have given very little or no rights to the woman. if you do some research you will find that what i said about marital rape is entirely correct.

although you obviously do not like to think this, even western societies treated women very badly up until the early 20th century. you can see that most western democracies did not allow women to vote until the early/mid 20th century even though men had been able to vote for hundreds of years.

i am not criticising the usa alone so you do not need to be defensive. it has been the same all over the world. what you call 'traditional' marriage is in fact very harsh and unfair to the woman.

So what is your point? That if marriage is not redefined, women will be beaten or lose their rights?

He's pointing out that your propaganda, as usual, is mired in inaccuracy.

My propaganda????? And......what do you call someone saying "women will be beaten and raped if......" You're a fucking joke Woodruff

[comic boy]

Greece
Im not so sure that the issue is so cut n dried , are ethics per se really so much worse than 50 years ago . Perhaps its more accurate to say that a minority are now less willing to pay lip service to morality and consequently flaunt their contempt. In Britain much is made by conservatives of so called Victorian values but in effect those values were largely built on bigotry , hypocrisy and callous indiference towards the less fortunate. Scrape away the facade of morality and there was a notable lack of ethics , it was the golden age of reformers simply because there was so much scope for reform.
Go back 50 years and the US was still riddled with racism , civil rights were still a pipe dream , women still viewed as second class citizens and South East Asia was bombed back to the dark ages because their politics were viewed as suspect. Not exactly an ethical paradise methinks !

[Phatscotty]

Less people take marriage seriously because they view it is a piece of paper, a contract, or a move to score benefits, rather than making a promise to God, or being married in the name of a higher power.

Marriage is tough. Children deserve parents who are willing to do whatever it takes to raise the children the best way they can, and the more ways we can help encourage making the institution of marriage stronger is the key to raising better children, thus a better future and a better society.

[Neoteny]

Christ.

[maxfaraday]

I'm the one respoinsible for the vote reset.

I asked scotty to add kittens if he wanted me to vote, because I always vote kittens.
But apparently adding a choice in the poll resets tthe vote.
I wasn't aware of that.
All apologises.

[Phatscotty]

Sorry gang. I did not know adding an option would reset the poll

[jonesthecurl]

I married, divorced remarried.
My wife married, divorced, remarried.
Our marriage is a good thing.
The previous marriages were bad things.
Um, that's all.

[comic boy]

Less people take marriage seriously because they view it is a piece of paper, a contract, or a move to score benefits, rather than making a promise to God, or being married in the name of a higher power.

Marriage is tough. Children deserve parents who are willing to do whatever it takes to raise the children the best way they can, and the more ways we can help encourage making the institution of marriage stronger is the key to raising better children, thus a better future and a better society.

I think everybody would agree that a stable parental relationship is key but there is no evidence that religious marriage trumps secular partnerships, USA divorce statistics prove the point . What is needed is encouragement for parents to fulfill their obligations , why are you only emphasising the religious marriage model ?

[PLAYER57832]

Less people take marriage seriously because they view it is a piece of paper, a contract, or a move to score benefits, rather than making a promise to God, or being married in the name of a higher power.

Is that really true or is it that today, people are just more open. Or, is it that women are no longer solely tasked with and blamed for problems?

That is not a general comment, by-the way. In certain classes, it was considered pretty normal for men to have affairs and mistresses, and women were supposed to just deal with it.

One point you do have, though no one has mentioned it, government aid programs were heavily oriented toward single mothers, specifically because at the time they originated, the thought of women "having" to or even being able to work outside the home was anathema (with few exceptions). I have pointed this out before, but welfare passed without a qualm, social securty, to contrast was a big fight. Anyway, this has been directly attributed adding to the breakup of at least lower class marriages, particularly amongst blacks.

Marriage is tough. Children deserve parents who are willing to do whatever it takes to raise the children the best way they can, and the more ways we can help encourage making the institution of marriage stronger is the key to raising better children, thus a better future and a better society.

Agreed, but don't the children of homosexual couples deserve the same protections and security?

[natty dread]

Now face it, 50 years ago when divorce was a rarity and society wasn't as generally sick,

It seems to me you are speaking of some kind of idealized fantasy world which you project on the world of the past, rather than the actual world of 50 years ago.

[GreecePwns]

Yeah, I totally missed that daddy1gringo. Society, and especially American society, was a disgusting place 50 years ago.

Indeed, people were more religious and the stereotypical American dream family was true for the most part.

50 years ago racial discrimination was institutionalized and people could be suspected of being a communist and be jailed for questioning the military-industrial complex. 50 years ago homosexuality and rock and roll were both considered communicable diseases (yes, its true).

Is this the society you desire?

[Symmetry]

...there is no evidence whatsoever that a certificate or religious blessing improves parenting skills.

Staying together in a stable, loving relationship improves parenting skills.

Improving parenting skills (something active) seems like a stretch, but improving the atmosphere (something more passive) for any children growing up seems more in line.

That was kind of a sound-byte response to what comic boy said. Though my long-term stable, loving relationship with my wife has indeed improved my parenting skills, as I hope it has hers, you're right, that is not the point. The point is that the stable, loving relationship itself, which is what this thread is about, makes a huge difference for the children.

This is a bunch of sophistry. "Certificates and religious blessings"? No those don't improve parenting skills. But paternal guidance and Christian values do. With no-fault divorce and rejection of Christian faith we've seen a decline in both of those things. Welcome to the world of thug lyfe, school shootings and emasculated man-children who never grew up.

Ethics can be decoupled from religion. One of course can still be be a helpful and good citizen or parent, using moral philosophy in general.


--Andy

upgrayedd specifically mentioned "Christian values", I just said this:

...the skyrocketing divorce rate is a result of "secularization", that is, society turning away from God, but government doesn't have a lot to do with it.

Edit: inb4 -- and yes, the divorce rate among "Christians" is little or no better because "Christians" in general have also turned away from God and become "me" centered.

Now face it, 50 years ago when divorce was a rarity and society wasn't as generally sick, the prevailing "non-secular" thing in the U.S. (and western European culture) was Christianity, so "secularization" meant moving away from that. I suppose Jewish people becoming more secularized also contributed to the ills of society, but if the Zoroastrians and Thor worshipers have become more secularized, I doubt that has had much effect on the national divorce rate.

Yes, obviously, it is theoretically possible to abandon Christianity, or any religious belief, and yet to live a non-me-centered philosophy. For the purposes of this thread, that means a philosophy that allows people to put others above themselves enough to put the marriage, your spouse, the children, and your given word before the fact that you don't feel happy right now, and work out your problems instead of running. It means a moral compass and anchor that you can pass on to your children where they will build up society rather than tearing it down or blowing it up.

"Ethics can be decoupled from religion" philosophically, and theoretically we should be able to do that. But the experience of the last 50 years is that as a nation, a culture, and a (human) race, we don't. That's my point, and I believe it is evidence that what we have abandoned is not so silly, outdated, and expendable as we thought.

You seem to view secularism as hostile to religious belief, where I would argue that it's about preservation of minority belief against state-sanctioned religious thought.

Even Christianity, which you seem to be presenting as a homogenous whole, ain't quite so when you examine the various sects and churches. Secularism isn't the abandonment of Christian thought, but an embracing of a variety of different religious beliefs, none of which has the right to prominence.

Opposition to secularism seems to me to be more about which particular brand of religious thinking should cancel out all the others in terms of governance.