Actual moderator/staff response in the suggestion forum

[cicero]

FWIW even though I consider myself a grown up (of 42 years) ... I still find it inordinately exciting and motivating if a mod comments on a thread that I started. Particularly in Bugs and Suggestions.

Cicero

[DiM]

actually you said the mod would send links to threads to lack. that's why i said lack doesn't have time to read tons of posts and a mod needs to refine the ideas remove the bad and impossible and keep the good and possible ones and present them in a proper manner to lack.

we already send stuff to the turtle, just on a weekly schedule.

it's important how you send that stuff to lack, because sending him a link to a 10 page thread might not do much good, but sending him a short description of the idea with an objective conclusions list of pros and cons as well as way to implement it would make life a whole lot better for lack and updates a whole lot faster.

imagine 2 pms

hey lack here's a link to a suggestion i liked take a look and see if you implement it

or

hey lack, we talked about a suggestion that involves (insert idea specifics here), we have refined the idea and think it will work nicely, here are the pros and the cons. (insert pros and cons here)

and here's the code you need to insert for this to work (inser mumbo jumbo technical data here)

now lack's only concern is to copy paste that code and make the suggestion happen.
of course this implies the suggestions mod has technical abilities and he/she is also given the freedom of deciding what is good for the site and what is bad. lack still gets the right to veto but as far as he is concerned all the hard work is done by this mod.

it's just like in the foundry. andy is responsible for taking care of maps and he just sends lack what maps need to be uploaded for live play. lack doesn't need to bother reading dozens of map threads and stuff like that. he gets the finished product ready to upload.

it speeds up the process a lot.

[yeti_c]

Kind of like a suggestions foundry!!

A nice idea - however not always 100% easy...

Whereas we can make assumptions and theories based on the code - we don't know the actual code... (nor even the language (although I could hazard a good guess)) - so the "code" would need to be Pseudocode... that Lack could turn into real code... But that would be a step forward.

C.

[DiM]

FWIW even though I consider myself a grown up (of 42 years) ... I still find it inordinately exciting and motivating if a mod comments on a thread that I started. Particularly in Bugs and Suggestions.

Cicero

i suddenly imagined cicero jumping for joy like a mad man in front of his (much more serious) kids.
"look guys lackattack posted in my thread"

"what's a lackattack?"

"he's this guy with a turtle for an avatar, he's so great"

"ok dad, now relax, take your medication"


slowly backing away the kids whisper: "dad totally lost it" "i call dibs on his car"

[DiM]

Kind of like a suggestions foundry!!

C.

precisely

[yeti_c]

Kind of like a suggestions foundry!!

C.

precisely

PS reread post - I edited...

C.

[DiM]

Kind of like a suggestions foundry!!

A nice idea - however not always 100% easy...

Whereas we can make assumptions and theories based on the code - we don't know the actual code... (nor even the language (although I could hazard a good guess)) - so the "code" would need to be Pseudocode... that Lack could turn into real code... But that would be a step forward.

C.

grrr you edited.

yes it wouldn't be easy at first. who said it would? was the foundry easy at first? heck no.

plus it's common knowledge that for better results you have to work harder. so yeah it would be quite difficult in the beginning but that's why i said the suggestions mod needs to be somebody who knows stuff about programming. and we don't need a code or pseudo code or stuff like that.

i come and say let's add rabid mokeys on the map that act like this and that and when they attack terit X the map changes to monkey land.
then the mod comes and says it's a great idea and it is possible to code. let's talk more. so the community ponders and they come up with a nice rabid monkeys idea. when it is in final stage, the mod does the coding and submits it to lack to upload.

of course as i said lack can veto it and he has to carefully analyze it but for the most part it would be a trust based relationship between the mod and lack. just like the foundry works. does lack follow each map and think about gameplay issues and problems and stuff like that? no. he trusts andy does his job properly and the map is in tip top shape just waiting for it to be uploaded.

[yeti_c]

Ah - but you're missing the vital point...

The workings of the foundry aren't clouded in secrecy...

The workings of the game engine - are.

C.

[TaCktiX]

Just based on what pages you visit when you make attacks, look at current game status, etc., the language he's using is PHP, likely with a backbone MySQL database. Very common on all the browser-based online games.

Keeping the engine secret is for good reason, but one thing Lack could do if he got the time was describe the inputs/outputs for the "black box" that is the game engine. That way technically-inclined people (myself included) could know that this XML edit to maps is possible, or that small change in gameplay, or an insert for that new option, etc. In other words, a small bit of documentation to explain what is presently possible would do wonders for educated suggesting and ultimately defining the realm of possible/impossible.

And yes, this is my second post, but I really like the idea of CC, and I used to be a heavy suggester / unofficial suggestion mod for a game called ZeldereX (http://www.zelderex.com). After the admin and mods all-but-banned me from saying anything, I left. Was only trying to create a game balance... In essence, I'd be more than willing to help here.

[DiM]

Ah - but you're missing the vital point...

The workings of the foundry aren't clouded in secrecy...

The workings of the game engine - are.

C.

but we don't need the code.
that's why we have the technical mod. as i said a guy comes with an idea and the mod says if it's possible or not. if it isn't possible it dies. if it is then the mod encourages and actively participates in the discussion and helps the idea move forward until it reaches a refined stage where all the bugs are ironed out and the idea is ready for implementation, the mod makes the code and sends it to lack.

i couldn't care less about the coding part, the community can come up with lots of ideas and all they need to know is 2 things:
1. if it is possible
2. if it is wanted

this is what we need for starters. you are right in a way, a pseudo code or even the actual code could be useful for the geeks out there because having a full description of how things work they can make even better suggestions or they can find other ways of implementing it. but this is already thinking too far away from the present situation. first get a mod and get things rolling and when there's already a fully functioning process that coughs up only good ideas then add the coding part in the process. don't do it all at once. festina lente yeti

[DiM]

Just based on what pages you visit when you make attacks, look at current game status, etc., the language he's using is PHP, likely with a backbone MySQL database. Very common on all the browser-based online games.

Keeping the engine secret is for good reason, but one thing Lack could do if he got the time was describe the inputs/outputs for the "black box" that is the game engine. That way technically-inclined people (myself included) could know that this XML edit to maps is possible, or that small change in gameplay, or an insert for that new option, etc. In other words, a small bit of documentation to explain what is presently possible would do wonders for educated suggesting and ultimately defining the realm of possible/impossible.

And yes, this is my second post, but I really like the idea of CC, and I used to be a heavy suggester / unofficial suggestion mod for a game called ZeldereX (http://www.zelderex.com). After the admin and mods all-but-banned me from saying anything, I left. Was only trying to create a game balance... In essence, I'd be more than willing to help here.

first post in the map foundry presenting a well thought idea and second one in suggestions.

i already like this guy

[yeti_c]

Ah - but you're missing the vital point...

The workings of the foundry aren't clouded in secrecy...

The workings of the game engine - are.

C.

but we don't need the code.

I know "We" don't need the code... but the Mod would - that's the problem... - That would involve Lack opening up his codebase to another person... I strongly suspect that not even Twill or Andy has that access.

C.

[yeti_c]

Just based on what pages you visit when you make attacks, look at current game status, etc., the language he's using is PHP, likely with a backbone MySQL database. Very common on all the browser-based online games.

You're probably correct here... of course - he could just be using PHP as the front end... he could have another language underneath that for the actual engine...

C.

[yeti_c]

Keeping the engine secret is for good reason, but one thing Lack could do if he got the time was describe the inputs/outputs for the "black box" that is the game engine. That way technically-inclined people (myself included) could know that this XML edit to maps is possible, or that small change in gameplay, or an insert for that new option, etc. In other words, a small bit of documentation to explain what is presently possible would do wonders for educated suggesting and ultimately defining the realm of possible/impossible.

I agree in some respects... however some suggestions are changes to the actual engine itself - instantly I'm thinking "Zombie Neutrals"...

Also - If lack were to define the inputs and outputs - then he might also have to make them more secure... obviously one of the flows is to/from random.org... this is the most important part of the engine - and should be kept secret at all costs...

C.

[DiM]

Ah - but you're missing the vital point...

The workings of the foundry aren't clouded in secrecy...

The workings of the game engine - are.

C.

but we don't need the code.

I know "We" don't need the code... but the Mod would - that's the problem... - That would involve Lack opening up his codebase to another person... I strongly suspect that not even Twill or Andy has that access.

C.

ah ok i understand, well i already covered that part when i said about the mod and lack needing to have a trust based relationship.

seriously getting help involves a lot of trust. having lack to do absolutely all the coding may be satisfactory for the moment, but even as it is the to-do list is a mile long, and lack has tons of work to do, and the game has barely 20k people. what will happen when CC reaches 100k users or 1 mil users? will lack cope with all that work? i highly doubt it. he will need help, professional help and he will need to unveil his coding to that professional help guy. also there are plenty of legal measures to ensure the secrecy.

[wicked]

Isn't this where the person they advertised to hire comes into play? To help with the coding?

[yeti_c]

ah ok i understand, well i already covered that part when i said about the mod and lack needing to have a trust based relationship.

seriously getting help involves a lot of trust. having lack to do absolutely all the coding may be satisfactory for the moment, but even as it is the to-do list is a mile long, and lack has tons of work to do, and the game has barely 20k people. what will happen when CC reaches 100k users or 1 mil users? will lack cope with all that work? i highly doubt it. he will need help, professional help and he will need to unveil his coding to that professional help guy. also there are plenty of legal measures to ensure the secrecy.

You are probably right... and the first steps are being taken towards this...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39443

In the future I'm sure there will be more hiring made by CC.

C.

[DiM]

Isn't this where the person they advertised to hire comes into play? To help with the coding?

nope.

the ad was for an User Interface Guru. user interface is one thing, gameplay modifications is another.

probably the person they are hiring will redesign the site optimize the interface create buttons and stuff like that. it won't involve coding neutral zombies.

[TaCktiX]

I agree in some respects... however some suggestions are changes to the actual engine itself - instantly I'm thinking "Zombie Neutrals"...

Also - If lack were to define the inputs and outputs - then he might also have to make them more secure... obviously one of the flows is to/from random.org... this is the most important part of the engine - and should be kept secret at all costs...

C.

Perhaps I put it in the wrong terms. I/O description is one way of documenting black box coding, but it tends to be either too limited (in the sense that nobody has a clue of what can/can't be done) or too detailed (in the sense that anybody could deduce your entire code by looking at I/O). Perhaps a small outline showing what the engine does at specific points.

[total conjecture]
Like the randomizer that assigns color then initial troop placement. I would venture to guess that it re-seeds the generator each time it is called, then has a weighted measure determining where a person's armies go (making it more improbable that a guy will start with all of Australia first turn). The current state of the randomizer makes it difficult to choose army color prior to a fight (To Do listed), and makes it impossible for players to individually place armies one at a time (like you'd see in a certain board game that CC resembles). That works for CC, since it's marketed as a casual take-your-turn-then-go-about-your-life game.
[/total conjecture]

Knowing the pieces of the engine and a small listing of limitations that would make X suggestion hard to do, or Y suggestion a piece of cake would help any Suggestion Mod out a ton. Even in a very general form, I would still say the listing be kept secret and anybody privy to it required to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement or something similar. As far as I'm concerned, I think that anyone appointed to such a position should be trustworthy and committed enough to CC that they wouldn't spill the beans even if they were given the chance.

[yeti_c]

Well either way - This will be Lack's decision...

At the moment though we can still make guesses and assumptions as to how things work - and depending on your experience - then the accuracy of said gueses will be higher...

C.

PS I think the drop is randomised from Random.org which is why it is eminently possible to get Australia on the drop... and it's also possible to go first with it too!!!

[DiM]

Well either way - This will be Lack's decision...

At the moment though we can still make guesses and assumptions as to how things work - and depending on your experience - then the accuracy of said gueses will be higher...

C.

PS I think the drop is randomised from Random.org which is why it is eminently possible to get Australia on the drop... and it's also possible to go first with it too!!!

even with random.org it's possible to get the full australia.

[Twill]

OK, I stopped reading at the top of page 3 because I'm going to stop you in your tracks here DiM.

That "technical mod" IS Lackattack. He's the only person who can or will make changes to the core code. A technical mod need to know how the engine works in order to know the best way to code it...and lack has a very particular way of coding.

That means that he would never just "copy/paste" code into his core, he would have to re-write it from scratch every time.

This includes our soon-to-be-new-hire UI coder - they will be working only on front end and non-core code while Lack will integrate that into the core with his own code. (he's a territorial turtle)

Now, Greasmonkey does allow some degree of "Technical Foundry" and perhaps some day way down the line we will release a more comprehensive API than game status so people can plug in directly, but for now we don't have any plans to do so.

That being said.

We are going to be doing a lot more focus groups - small, very focused groups of people who discuss a topic in a private forum to hash out the details of implementation - new player colours was the first to use this style of community based decision making and we will be using it a lot more in the future to get ideas ready for Lack to just pick up and run with.

These committees, or ad-hoc groups, will be formed and dissolved as needed to set up the non-code decisions of a feature which the community has suggested here and taken far enough to warrant actual design discussions.

So, now, I hope that addresses some of your concerns. Lack will remain the only technical mod, because he's the only one who could possibly do it and he's the one who makes the final yes/no on all choices.
We will however be starting much more focused user-based decision making and designing for features which are too complex or too time consuming for TeamCC to address alone.

Have a good one
Twill

[cicero]

Isn't this where the person they advertised to hire comes into play? To help with the coding?

nope.

the ad was for an User Interface Guru. user interface is one thing, gameplay modifications is another.

probably the person they are hiring will redesign the site optimize the interface create buttons and stuff like that. it won't involve coding neutral zombies.

No, not directly perhaps.

But indirectly if UI Guru covers UI work, surely Lack is relieved of such tasks and thereby free to address coding of <insert your personal favourite from the to do list/suggestion forum here>?

Cicero

[DiM]

nice ample responce twill. as usual. unfortunatelly you bring bad news besides the good ones.

focus groups are a good idea. getting the community (even if it's a very select tiny piece of it) is great. it will help bring in new thoughts and ideas as well as taking some workload off the cc team's shoulders.

but lack being the only technical mod is bad in my opinion. as i said before, for the time being he may be ok. but CC is growing and it will keep growing. in the past 4 months i think CC has jumped from ~18k active members to almost 22k members. at this rate it will reach 100k active users in the not so distant future. more users means more work for lack and he already has a full to-do list.
you say he's a solitary turtle with his own way of doing things. i understand that. each of us has his own methods of doing things but when the workloadexceeds our capacities we need help and the only way to do that is to let another person into our own little secret space and shown that person how we work and what we do. then and only then accurate help will be possible.

[cicero]

nice ample responce twill. as usual. unfortunatelly you bring bad news besides the good ones...

As an optimist I would suggest that fortunately Twill often brings good news despite the bad

Cicero