Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

[PLAYER57832]

yeah you can focus on that part. You aren't referring to the other instance where he was charged, not at Acorn but for that Mckaskill senator and her phones. either way, those tapes got the Acorn funding pulled.

The irony is that the real Acorn group did a lot of very good social service work far more cheaply than other groups. It was only one part of Acorn that was ever in trouble, but the whole group got slammed.

Contrast that with your comments regarding Tea party renegades that they are not really representative... rather "interesting", indeed.

And, yes, the results do speak, but they don't necessarily tell the truth, nor are they indicative of a crime having been committed. Walker has taken a hit over this call, but I don't think he's committed a crime.

Indeed. I started to post comments from the local police chief (WI) about their anger that he was even considering placing citizens in danger (the protests have to all accounts been very peaceful). However, when I heard the interview, it seemed more like he was just not arguing with Koche, not necessarily talking about anything he really and truly seriously considered.

In fact he seems pretty reasonable. It does add fuel to the argument that he was dishonest about his original motives, and also to arguments that he's too closely tied to big business, however.

Yes, this is a concern. However, to think anything else might happen is a bit naive. The bad part is not so much that he is taking calls from bigwigs (what politican could afford not to do so!), but that he is not taking enough calls from average people.

[Phatscotty]

Hopefully the teachers getting fake sick notes will be fired for the taxpayer fraud they are guilty of.

Are WI teachers actually required to have a "sick note from a doctor" in order to use the sick days they're authorized under their contract

God I hope so. I find it difficult to be able to think less of WI education system than I already do now....And my union is a private sector union, but when I want to take PTO I have to fill out a piece of paperwork requesting it, and then get it approved. This, obviously, is done so that the business can still operate and we don't have 5 people from the same department taking the same day off, since that would effectively close down the store. I suppose if you are a teacher in WI though, you don't have to care about closing the whole school down.

The answer may lie in another question though. Why did so many teacher go and get one of those "fake sick notes" and why were so many doctors standing there handing out "fake sicj notes" if nobody needed them?

FYI the 2 day shut down caused by the protesters cost WI 9 million dollars. There are plenty of people in WI who live on less than 5 dollars a day and might go to bed hungry. That isn't fair!

[Phatscotty]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here? Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

Union members are publicly calling for "quote" blood in the streets "unquote". I assume he was addressing when he told the riot police to hit def con 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM

[Woodruff]

Hopefully the teachers getting fake sick notes will be fired for the taxpayer fraud they are guilty of.

Are WI teachers actually required to have a "sick note from a doctor" in order to use the sick days they're authorized under their contract

God I hope so.

This truly defies logic. You trust them to educate your children, but you don't trust them to not be sick when they claim they are?

And my union is a private sector union, but when I want to take PTO I have to fill out a piece of paperwork requesting it, and then get it approved.

I presume that PTO stands for "Permissable Time Off" or some-such? There would be a vast difference between that and sick leave.

This, obviously, is done so that the business can still operate and we don't have 5 people from the same department taking the same day off, since that would effectively close down the store. I suppose if you are a teacher in WI though, you don't have to care about closing the whole school down.

What an irrational statement. Perhaps you've never heard of substitute teachers?

[Phatscotty]

Hopefully the teachers getting fake sick notes will be fired for the taxpayer fraud they are guilty of.

Are WI teachers actually required to have a "sick note from a doctor" in order to use the sick days they're authorized under their contract

God I hope so.

This truly defies logic. You trust them to educate your children, but you don't trust them to not be sick when they claim they are?

And my union is a private sector union, but when I want to take PTO I have to fill out a piece of paperwork requesting it, and then get it approved.

I presume that PTO stands for "Permissable Time Off" or some-such? There would be a vast difference between that and sick leave.

This, obviously, is done so that the business can still operate and we don't have 5 people from the same department taking the same day off, since that would effectively close down the store. I suppose if you are a teacher in WI though, you don't have to care about closing the whole school down.

What an irrational statement. Perhaps you've never heard of substitute teachers?

I would hope that there would be a system, if we can focus on the overall aspect, that tried to keep a school open/prevent a large number of teachers from not showing up to work on the same day.

[Nobunaga]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

... How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

... Two working parent families especially (which is most families these days).

...

[Phatscotty]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

... How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

... Two working parent families especially (which is most families these days).

...

I know. Even though it's woody's specialty, I am not immune to it.


The walkout cost Wisconsin 9 million dollars.

[PLAYER57832]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

[Phatscotty]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

[PLAYER57832]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

I see, so you seem to think claiming someone is lying is appropriate discussion tactic?

No, I told you what I heard.

[Woodruff]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

[Night Strike]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

[Woodruff]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

[Juan_Bottom]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

... How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

... Two working parent families especially (which is most families these days).

...

I know. Even though it's woody's specialty, I am not immune to it.


The walkout cost Wisconsin 9 million dollars.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but might we not just as easily blame governor douchebag for forcing the issue to come to this? He could have just as easily kept the teachers in school. Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

[Iliad]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045
Koch: We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this…[explains that planting troublemakers may not work.] My only fear would be if there’s a ruckus caused is that maybe the governor has to settle to solve all these problems…[something about '60s liberals.]…Let ‘em protest all they want…Sooner or later the media stops finding it interesting.

Koch: [Laughs] Well, I tell you what, Scott: once you crush these bastards I’ll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time.

Walker: All right, that would be outstanding.

[Woodruff]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

Of course. But just as I have mentioned in other cases, exercising your rights always has consequences. I think a legitimate consequence in this situation might be the potential loss of their job IF they in fact falsified a sick note to do so (even though it's assinine that they have to have one).

[PopeBenXVI]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

... How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

... Two working parent families especially (which is most families these days).

...

Ahhhh......Lots! I know multiple families ( I am not even in Madison) that had to make last minute arrangements to miss work themselves and stay home with kids that were not in school. You see, thats what happens to people who have to show up for work every day instead of protesting. Then you do get pissed off because you have to use vacation days so taxpayer funded teachers can lie and commit taxpayer fraud but still retain their vacation. Most businesses around here do not have "sick days", they are called vacation days and you use them how you need to. Those businesses around here that do have sick days are rare. They are confined mostly to teacher and other government jobs.

Time to start Firing if the senators don't come back to do their jobs either.

[Woodruff]

How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

Ahhhh......Lots! I know multiple families ( I am not even in Madison) that had to make last minute arrangements to miss work themselves and stay home with kids that were not in school. You see, thats what happens to people who have to show up for work every day instead of protesting.

I am not at all excusing this, but don't the parents also have to do this for snow days? You see, intelligent parenting would account for these sorts of situations. In the military, it was a requirement that we had a place for our kids in situations such as this.

[Symmetry]

The teachers versus concerned parents argument is also a bit lame when you have to consider that many teachers are also parents. The teachers vs. parents argument relies heavily on the idea that teachers are lazy and don't care about children. That might be a hang-up from certain posters' childhoods where they met a mean teacher, but it's certainly not coming from any in-depth knowledge of professional teachers.

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

[PLAYER57832]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

A lot of people don't get sick days.

[PLAYER57832]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045
Koch: We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this…[explains that planting troublemakers may not work.] My only fear would be if there’s a ruckus caused is that maybe the governor has to settle to solve all these problems…[something about '60s liberals.]…Let ‘em protest all they want…Sooner or later the media stops finding it interesting.

Koch: [Laughs] Well, I tell you what, Scott: once you crush these bastards I’ll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time.

Walker: All right, that would be outstanding.

Except the bits in [..] are not what was said. The parts not deleted, though speak for themselves.

[PopeBenXVI]

How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

Ahhhh......Lots! I know multiple families ( I am not even in Madison) that had to make last minute arrangements to miss work themselves and stay home with kids that were not in school. You see, thats what happens to people who have to show up for work every day instead of protesting.

I am not at all excusing this, but don't the parents also have to do this for snow days? You see, intelligent parenting would account for these sorts of situations. In the military, it was a requirement that we had a place for our kids in situations such as this.

Yes they do, so now they have to take vacation days for snow days as well as multiple days of teacher walk outs. They can also just take an unpaid day if the company will let them and they are not able to arrange anything else. Using some simple estimates on numbers this is what I figure is reasonable & fair to estimate for the number of businesses and families effected by the illegal walkout.

Madison district enrollment (not including other areas in the state) - Just under 25,000 students
Kids per household - Roughly 2 - give or take the national average by likely .3 kids
This leaves 12,500 families
Subtract that some kids would have been sick any given day anyway
Subtract the fact that some of the parents would not give a rip on a normal day anyway and this would not change their day
Subtract the kids who have at least 1 parent as a teacher.

I think it is fair to say that at least 10,000 families were directly effected by having to take off work, try and find a last minute daycare that was not full, taking an unpaid day themselves, getting a grandparent to watch them etc. This in turn effected many businesses as well. costing the state 9 million in my opinion is an underestimate.

[Night Strike]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.












Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

[Phatscotty]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

I see, so you seem to think claiming someone is lying is appropriate discussion tactic?

No, I told you what I heard.

Not at all. I said, let's see the text. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.....

[Phatscotty]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

That's the thing. They can't be trusted anymore...