Education in the USA

[tzor]

Evidence to the contrary is simply...Phatscotty.

He is a poet
'Though he may not know it
Yet his ears do show it
For they are Longfellow's

[Phatscotty]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

Once one knows how to think they will decide for themselves what to learn. For some people that will be history. All history is important not just the history of any one specific nation but history of all nations and the world in general.

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't what Changer said.

Either of you can chime in with a ruling on this, according to the ideals set forth above
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04 ... ry-a-girl/

[Woodruff]

Standardization =/= Liberal indoctrination...

I stated which point that has been reinforced. I even made it a special color. When I eventually show yet another example/intsance of liberal indoctrination, I will state it as such. This is about a teacher stating as a fact one of the points I made that started this whole thing.

Phatscotty: "It's no longer about teaching children how to think, it's about teaching children what to think".

Is it possible that you don't realize that she's NOT AT ALL saying what you believe she's saying with that quote? Because it's definitely not.

I was hoping I'd see someone else in the thread explaining this, but it didn't happen, so I will:

What she's saying is that "Teachers are forced to teach to the test.". THAT is why "it's about teaching children what to think" because teachers don't have time to do ANYTHING ELSE. They're essentially required to teach to the test. This has nothing at all to do with "teaching kids to be liberal", it has everything to do with "teaching to the test". It's really quite simple.

Phatscotty? I thought you don't ignore reasonable discussion any longer?

[Jippd]

Either of you can chime in with a ruling on this, according to the ideals set forth above
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04 ... ry-a-girl/

Eh personally if the girl wanted to be on TV then what is the big deal? I'm sure I would have been stoked to be on TV as a kid even if that meant giving "scripted" answers.

If the mom forced the child to do it and they didn't want to then that would be another issue. From the picture though I can't safely make that assumption.

[chang50]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

Once one knows how to think they will decide for themselves what to learn. For some people that will be history. All history is important not just the history of any one specific nation but history of all nations and the world in general.

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't what Changer said.

Either of you can chime in with a ruling on this, according to the ideals set forth above
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04 ... ry-a-girl/

And not for the first time you appear to have misunderstood what I did write.What on earth is common core?

[tzor]

And not for the first time you appear to have misunderstood what I did write.What on earth is common core?

Grandson of "No Child Left Behind" and son of "Race to the top," the "Common Core" program is to provide a uniform curriculum to every student in the United States effectively placing education fully within the powers of the Federal Government in gross violation of the Constitution.

[chang50]

And not for the first time you appear to have misunderstood what I did write.What on earth is common core?

Grandson of "No Child Left Behind" and son of "Race to the top," the "Common Core" program is to provide a uniform curriculum to every student in the United States effectively placing education fully within the powers of the Federal Government in gross violation of the Constitution.

Thanks,I take it you favour decentralisation of education decision making?

[Phatscotty]

[waauw]

I hate those kind of teachers You barely learn anything from their classes.
Students performances get tested all the time but the teacher performances barely get monitored.

[Phatscotty]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

...right. Because nothing can be learned from history....we shouldn't teach anything about our country, our founding, or our values. Do you have a problem with all men being created equal as well?

That is exactly the attitude I have been talking about. That is how history is rewritten. Don't teach it, fill in the blanks with whatever you like.

Changs' statement is the spirit of Common Core.

Once one knows how to think they will decide for themselves what to learn. For some people that will be history. All history is important not just the history of any one specific nation but history of all nations and the world in general.

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't what Changer said.

Either of you can chime in with a ruling on this, according to the ideals set forth above
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04 ... ry-a-girl/

And not for the first time you appear to have misunderstood what I did write.What on earth is common core?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

Common core is the opposite. It turns our teachers into a packet handler. It moves closer to standardization and uniformity and further from critical thinking, and also teaches even less about Americanism than it did before (which was not much). It also allows corporations to data mines students and it also is a permanent record database. Anything you do when you are 5, 10, 15 years old, is on your record FOREVER, and children's lives and educations will revolve around the doors that have been closed to them/are open to them, rather than just educate the students and let them decide their own destiny.

It's a completely centralized education, common core standardized initiative. It replaces Shakespeare with diversity training, replaces Americanism with globalism, and anything else any future gov't thinks is best for a one size fits all approach. Overall, and not really part of this discussion here, this is a smaller part of a bigger picture. For decades, our government has been building an exoskeleton around our constitution. Our government has been building a machine with numerous moving parts, but they have only been building it one part at a time. It was difficult to see exactly what was happening because the whole picture of the machine has been hidden and even denied that the goal of building it existed. The machine is done. Common Core is the "on" switch. The new way and all education will be geared around state capitalism, which is a pretty name for Socialism.

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”

[AndyDufresne]

PS and GC = LOVE?


--Andy

[Phatscotty]

PS and GC = LOVE?


--Andy

[Woodruff]

I hate those kind of teachers You barely learn anything from their classes.

I absolutely agree.

Students performances get tested all the time but the teacher performances barely get monitored.

It probably seems that way to students, but it's really not the case in most places. For instance at my school, we have formal, informal and surprise evaluations (one of each) at least once per semester. I doubt we're that unusual, other than the cameras in the classrooms (the cameras!).

[Woodruff]

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

Common core is the opposite. It turns our teachers into a packet handler.

It's nice that you think that hasn't already completely happened, but you'd be wrong. No Child Left Behind gutted the ability of most teachers to teach critical thinking skills.

It moves closer to standardization and uniformity and further from critical thinking

Standardization and uniformity of education are not necessarily bad things, and neither of those things necessarily means a move away from critical thinking skills. Though from your excessive rants against the Texas Board of Education's move to completely remove critical thinking skills from their classrooms, it's clear how much you really care about that particular issue.

and also teaches even less about Americanism than it did before (which was not much).

Does it? Because I don't think that's true. You're going to have to provide some sources for that claim.

It also allows corporations to data mines students and it also is a permanent record database. Anything you do when you are 5, 10, 15 years old, is on your record FOREVER, and children's lives and educations will revolve around the doors that have been closed to them/are open to them, rather than just educate the students and let them decide their own destiny.

You're going to have to explain how this allows corporations to data mine students.

It's a completely centralized education, common core standardized initiative.

Again, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

It replaces Shakespeare with diversity training, replaces Americanism with globalism

Oh, now I see...you don't actually know what Common Core is, but you're buying into what you've been told it is. You really should educate yourself before you dive into these topics with your less-than-understanding of them.

For decades, our government has been building an exoskeleton around our constitution.

The Constitutional argument is the only one that is needed, and it is valid. Common Core does go against the Constitution, in my opinion, and should be stopped for that reason (as of now, Nebraska is not adopting it). Pretty much everything else you've said in this post is eyewash and bullshit.

Our government has been building a machine with numerous moving parts, but they have only been building it one part at a time. It was difficult to see exactly what was happening because the whole picture of the machine has been hidden and even denied that the goal of building it existed. The machine is done. Common Core is the "on" switch. The new way and all education will be geared around state capitalism, which is a pretty name for Socialism.

You're really a dumbshit if you believe this. Please...possibly for the first time in your life...educate yourself.

[Woodruff]

And not for the first time you appear to have misunderstood what I did write.What on earth is common core?

Grandson of "No Child Left Behind" and son of "Race to the top," the "Common Core" program is to provide a uniform curriculum to every student in the United States effectively placing education fully within the powers of the Federal Government in gross violation of the Constitution.

Absolutely. Although it's actually a part of "Race to the Top".

[Phatscotty]

ripped from "break the law", another example of the exoskeleton around our constitution.

Allowing government institutions to disregard their own laws sets a very dangerous precedent.

Why do people trust the government so much? Their intentions and goals aren't worth a hill of beans. They never get it right, lie cheat steal and change the rules and destroy everything in their path, all while wasting 40% of every dollar we send them.

The Federal government is THE LAST thing you should want dictating education! If you thought it was expensive before, you aint seen nothing yet!

[Woodruff]

ripped from "break the law", another example of the exoskeleton around our constitution.

Allowing government institutions to disregard their own laws sets a very dangerous precedent.

Why do people trust the government so much? Their intentions and goals aren't worth a hill of beans. They never get it right, lie cheat steal and change the rules and destroy everything in their path, all while wasting 40% of every dollar we send them.

The Federal government is THE LAST thing you should want dictating education! If you thought it was expensive before, you aint seen nothing yet!

Were you going to respond to my points regarding your diatribe against Common Core Standards or not?

[Woodruff]

ripped from "break the law", another example of the exoskeleton around our constitution.

Allowing government institutions to disregard their own laws sets a very dangerous precedent.

Interestingly, you've not made a single statement in that thread. For someone who is so against government precedent and over-reach and the fact that they're controlling our lives...how is it that you're not in there railing against these activities? Is that just another example of how your love of Libertarianism only extends to the point where it meets your religious preferences?

[tzor]

Thanks,I take it you favour decentralisation of education decision making?

Yes, but for a variety of different reasons. The first reason is that no two places are exactly alike, things that work in the rural areas might not work in urban areas and vice versa. But the biggest reason is that centralization results in the monopoly problem. If there is only one way it is either the right way or the wrong way. If it is the wrong way everyone suffers but no one wants to change it because they have no proof the other way is better. In the free market of ideas each idea is being tested at more or less the same time. People can look at what they are doing and compare it to others; then decide for themselves if they should stay the course or adapt the idea of others. This may result in the occasional pink light bulb (*) but generally it results in better education for all.

(*) The pink light bulb. Some time around the 1950's there was a major inter college seminar at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Seeing that one of the lecture hall's lights had burned out and that there were no normal bulbs available, the janitor replaced it with a pink bulb. The next year as professors visited other colleges they spotted a pink light bulb in the lecture halls. Apparently the other professors saw the bulb and assumed that the institute probably had a study showing how a pink bulb in the lighting would improve student attention spans or something, because, after all, RPI was a serious engineering college. So, yea, strange silly stuff does happen naturally.

[tzor]

Were you going to respond to my points regarding your diatribe against Common Core Standards or not?

How about, instead of nit picking the quick points of a fellow CC member, you respond to the well thought out arguments of Common Core's more vocal opponents.

There’s no better illustration of Common Core’s duplicitous talk of higher standards than to start with its math “reforms.” While Common Core promoters assert their standards are “internationally benchmarked,” independent members of the expert panel in charge of validating the standards refute the claim. Panel member Dr. Sandra Stotsky of the University of Arkansas reported, “No material was ever provided to the Validation Committee or to the public on the specific college readiness expectations of other leading nations in mathematics” or other subjects.

In fact, Stanford University professor James Milgram, the only mathematician on the validation panel, concluded that the Common Core math scheme would place American students two years behind their peers in other high-achieving countries. In protest, Milgram refused to sign off on the standards. He’s not alone.

Professor Jonathan Goodman of New York University found that the Common Core math standards imposed “significantly lower expectations with respect to algebra and geometry than the published standards of other countries.”

Under Common Core, as the American Principles Project and Pioneer Institute point out, algebra I instruction is pushed to ninth grade, instead of eighth grade, when it is traditionally taught. Division is postponed from fifth to sixth grade. Prime factorization, common denominators, conversions of fractions and decimals, and algebraic manipulation are de-emphasized or eschewed. Traditional Euclidean geometry is replaced with an experimental approach that had not been previously pilot-tested in the U.S.

Ze’ev Wurman, a prominent software architect, electrical engineer, and longtime math-advisory expert in California and Washington, D.C., points out that Common Core delays proficiency with addition and subtraction until 4th grade and proficiency with basic multiplication until 5th grade, and skimps on logarithms, mathematical induction, parametric equations, and trigonometry at the high-school level.

I cannot sum up the stakes any more clearly than Wurman did in his critique of this mess and the vested interests behind it:

I believe the Common Core marks the cessation of educational standards improvement in the United States. No state has any reason left to aspire for first-rate standards, as all states will be judged by the same mediocre national benchmark enforced by the federal government. Moreover, there are organizations that have reasons to work for lower and less-demanding standards, specifically teachers unions’ and professional teacher organizations. While they may not admit it, they have a vested interest in lowering the accountability bar for their members. . . . This will be done in the name of ‘critical thinking’ and “21st-century” skills, and in faraway Washington, D.C., well beyond the reach of parents and most states and employers.

NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE JANUARY 23, 2013 12:00 AM - Common Core Corrupts - The Obama administration is corrupting education. By Michelle Malkin

or perhaps this ...

One: Standards shouldn’t be attached to school subjects, but to the qualities of mind it’s hoped the study of school subjects promotes. Subjects are mere tools, just as scalpels, acetylene torches, and transits are tools. Surgeons, welders, surveyors — and teachers — should be held accountable for the quality of what they produce, not how they produce it.

Two: The world changes. The future is indiscernible. Clinging to a static strategy in a dynamic world may be comfortable, even comforting, but it’s a Titanic-deck-chair exercise.

Three: The Common Core Standards assume that what kids need to know is covered by one or another of the traditional core subjects. In fact, the unexplored intellectual terrain lying between and beyond those familiar fields of study is vast, expands by the hour, and will go in directions no one can predict.

Four: So much orchestrated attention is being showered on the Common Core Standards, the main reason for poor student performance is being ignored—a level of childhood poverty the consequences of which no amount of schooling can effectively counter.

Five: The Common Core kills innovation. When it’s the only game in town, it’s the only game in town.

Six: The Common Core Standards are a set-up for national standardized tests, tests that can’t evaluate complex thought, can’t avoid cultural bias, can’t measure non-verbal learning, can’t predict anything of consequence (and waste boatloads of money).

Seven: The word “standards” gets an approving nod from the public (and from most educators) because it means “performance that meets a standard.” However, the word also means “like everybody else,” and standardizing minds is what the Standards try to do. Common Core Standards fans sell the first meaning; the Standards deliver the second meaning. Standardized minds are about as far out of sync with deep-seated American values as it’s possible to get.

Eight: The Common Core Standards’ stated aim — “success in college and careers”— is at best pedestrian, at worst an affront. The young should be exploring the potentials of humanness.

Washington Post - Posted at 11:37 AM ET, 08/21/2012 Eight problems with Common Core Standards - By Valerie Strauss

[Phatscotty]

What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended?

Spoiler

[Woodruff]

Were you going to respond to my points regarding your diatribe against Common Core Standards or not?

How about, instead of nit picking the quick points of a fellow CC member, you respond to the well thought out arguments of Common Core's more vocal opponents.

*I* am a vocal Common Core opponent, as well as No Child Left Behind (I AM a fan of the idea behind "Race to the Top", although I have some issues with its implementation). Apparently, you've missed that in the discussions. I don't have to be a proponent of something to recognize stupid arguments, and pointing out egregious errors in basic information is not "nit picking" (I'm not even sure how you determined that Phatscotty's idea that political correctness was replacing Shakespeare is "nit picking", just as a for-instance).

I believe the Common Core marks the cessation of educational standards improvement in the United States.

Too late for that to be the end of it...that basically happened with No Child Left Behind and its' mandated test requirements. There's a reason we rank so pathetically worldwide, and it's not because of student desire or teacher capability.

[Woodruff]

What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended?

What the f*ck does that even mean, Phatscotty?

No, seriously...what the f*ck? Do you think that the United States is China and children are now required to fall within a certain occupation based on what the government thinks they'll do best at?

Go ahead...explain that ludicrous question, if you can.

Once you've done that, perhaps you can go back and answer the points made regarding your utter misinformation regarding Common Core standards, since we all know so well that you never ignore legitimate points.

[waauw]

What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended?

What the f*ck does that even mean, Phatscotty?

No, seriously...what the f*ck? Do you think that the United States is China and children are now required to fall within a certain occupation based on what the government thinks they'll do best at?

Go ahead...explain that ludicrous question, if you can.

Once you've done that, perhaps you can go back and answer the points made regarding your utter misinformation regarding Common Core standards, since we all know so well that you never ignore legitimate points.

now now Spock, remember your vulcan training, keep cool...

[thegreekdog]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

Not indoctrination for three reasons: (1) doesn't work (e.g. Phatscotty, TGD); (2) no evidence of indoctrination or plan of indoctrination; (3) simpler reason teachers lean left (see (2) above).

Okay, let's go down this evidence path. Let's just say there was evidence or indoctrination. What would you expect that evidence to look like? A video recording? A written letter? back n forth emails between 2 or more professors talking about indoctrination techniques? recorded conversations between 2 or more people in the teachers lounge? What would the evidence look like?

Any of the above.