EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[Ragian]

All I got from that is that you think Strike is town. Super informative. Thanks.

[Loose Canon]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

[Devante]

Sorry everyone been travelling for a few days and haven't had a chance to catch up, just got back home, can't remember my last vote so voting No Lynch till I get a chance to catch up. You fuckers added like 4 pages over the last couple days ffs. We'll post again once caught up

[Ragian]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

[DirtyDishSoap]

All I got from that is that you think Strike is town. Super informative. Thanks.

This gave me a good lol.

Nothing of note has happened, and my list is more or less the same.

Unvote Vote No Lynch

Feel like ending the day will reveal better results.

[Loose Canon]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

Because if I'm going to vote for a D1 lynching at least let it be for a player that doesn't have a TownPR. And I've wavered a lot on whether to switch from no lynch to vot in the first place, and I've questioned myself a lot on whether vot could actually be a TownPR.
But I'm sticking.

[Charle]

All I got from that is that you think Strike is town. Super informative. Thanks.

This gave me a good lol.

Nothing of note has happened, and my list is more or less the same.

Unvote Vote No Lynch

Feel like ending the day will reveal better results.

Aaah, so all the scum now over to the "No Lynch" side? Obviously you guys are talking to each other

[Charle]

It is easy guys, the Lynchers just pick one of the No-lynchers and we have a 3 in 5 (or 60%) chance of killing scum!

Actually, 3 in 4 (75%) chance as traf sounds town to me but with a bump on the head

[DirtyDishSoap]

All I got from that is that you think Strike is town. Super informative. Thanks.

This gave me a good lol.

Nothing of note has happened, and my list is more or less the same.

Unvote Vote No Lynch

Feel like ending the day will reveal better results.

Aaah, so all the scum now over to the "No Lynch" side? Obviously you guys are talking to each other

Oh f*ck!
My bad guys.

Unvote vote Charle

That'll throw him off our tail!

[Charle]

All I got from that is that you think Strike is town. Super informative. Thanks.

This gave me a good lol.

Nothing of note has happened, and my list is more or less the same.

Unvote Vote No Lynch

Feel like ending the day will reveal better results.

Aaah, so all the scum now over to the "No Lynch" side? Obviously you guys are talking to each other

Oh f*ck!
My bad guys.

Unvote vote Charle

That'll throw him off our tail!

LOL!!

[Ragian]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

Because if I'm going to vote for a D1 lynching at least let it be for a player that doesn't have a TownPR. And I've wavered a lot on whether to switch from no lynch to vot in the first place, and I've questioned myself a lot on whether vot could actually be a TownPR.
But I'm sticking.

So you want to out ALL town PRs lest you accidentally lynch one of them? That doesn't make any sense...

[Ragian]

I'd prefer it if you made your case on any player regardless of the role you think they have. For instance, why would you want to vote for Vot?

[Loose Canon]

I've said it before rag. I see peculiarities in Vots play this game.
I also see slight adjustments in his play within this game.
But to me that just makes him as likely to be vanilla town as mafia.
I just don't think putting it all together that he is TownPR.

But why are you pressing me on this?
You might suspect vot yourself?
Equally you might be mafia know vot isn't and therefore want a mislynch on vot where your hands appear to be clean?

[Ragian]

I'm trying to figure out why you're addressing whether people are town PRs, and I'm trying to figure out why you're pushing something that you don't believe to be scummy.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Can we get out this rabbit hole already with LC? Disengage! Pop smoke! Exfil! Get out before its too late!

Seriously, it's been non stop since the game has started, I'm this close to projectile vomiting.

[*Pixar*]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

Trying to catch up here, but does seem very odd behavior for LC wanting to know PR's. I'm willing to put pressure on him if need be. Otherwise, I will stick with my No Lynch. It's going to be very hard to find a fake claim in this just because of 9 vanilla townies in the mix. Easy claim for anyone to make. To me we won't find any info today unless we pressure someone with a PR to claim, and that will only hurt town. To me I say we let PR's do their thing tonight and see what comes of it tomorrow.

FP'ed by DDS

[Loose Canon]

I DON'T want to know PRs.
(I explored that hypothesis in my second game on this site - the evidence by play where I've been found out in other games is indicating to me now, that night investigations do yield results)

I'm saying I don't think Vot has a Town PR (and I think there is strong evidence for that - and its the strongest evidence that is out there by my read of chat/play styles so far ) thats all.
Vot has used investigations/PRs in previous games to great effect and credit to him - if he had a PR in this game would he be a lynching advocate?
But as for his guilt or not I can read his posts and the slight amendments in his arguments as evidence of scumminess but can equally also read it as vanilla town.

However/Therefore if I'm casting a vote that isn't a No Lynch vote, and therefore doesn't contribute to a No Lynch majority - I'm leaving it cast on Vot.

Whether all of the lynching crew are serious or not, and if so who they want to lynch is a matter for them.

[Votanic]

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

Trying to catch up here, but does seem very odd behavior for LC wanting to know PR's. I'm willing to put pressure on him if need be. Otherwise, I will stick with my No Lynch. It's going to be very hard to find a fake claim in this just because of 9 vanilla townies in the mix. Easy claim for anyone to make. To me we won't find any info today unless we pressure someone with a PR to claim, and that will only hurt town. To me I say we let PR's do their thing tonight and see what comes of it tomorrow.

Woah. Did you just say... in the space of one paragraph... That it's odd for LC to want to know PRs and that "we"nere to pressure someone with a PR to claim??? Did you you just say both of these things? Did you?!?!? Yes. You. Did.

...

Obviously there is one more thing I need to address... since I seem to need to address it every game.

There is no benefit to TOWN in forcing a claim under threat of lynching.

For example, let's say Town has somebody (call him Player X) at -1 to a lynch.

And some bozo says, "Ya better tell us your role, X, or you're gonna hang!!"

Player X now has several options, depending of his actual identity.
• He could claim scum, which will only happen if he is scum and wants to end the day quickly and die (strike did that in the wolf game).
• He could claim a town PR falsely, which might appease a bunch of dumb Townies that want to believe... or it might not, then he'll hang anyway, regardless of whether he is scum or vanilla.
• He could claim a town PR truthfully, and still run the risk of not being believed... but even if he is believed his PR's benefit to town is wrecked/reduced and he now has a red dot on his forehead for that night's scum-kill. Town weakens itself he only lynchers playing wisely in that scenario are the scummy ones.
• He could claim vanilla, truthfully. But Townidiots always say that is a 'bad', unbelieveable claim.... The most common role in the game is unbelievable?? That's dumb.
• He could claim vanilla, falsely, because he has a PR and wants to protect it for town...but the lynchers (town AND scum) are trying there hardest to ruin that. Another dumb move for Town.
• He could claim vanilla, falsely, because he is scum... which is actually a pretty good way to hide.So yeah, Town needs to get rid of Scum but, forcing them to fake-claim isn't the way.

Solution to all this: Use lynching as it was intended.
Lynch players because there is good evidence (best you have anyway...) that they are scummy... not because you are trying to wrangle a BS confession out of them!!

Also, This:

Can we get out this rabbit hole already with LC? Disengage! Pop smoke! Exfil! Get out before its too late!

Seriously, it's been non stop since the game has started, I'm this close to projectile vomiting.

Stop whining/vomiting. Vote LC for no LC. Simple.

[strike wolf]

I'd be on board for a D1 lynch pact. Maybe a D2 one as well but after that, if we haven't hit scum by d3 then we're going to need to be pretty selective with our lynches.

I am a little surprised by how easily PMC conceded he'd be willing to act as the selected lynch. It's rare that allowing yourself to be lynched helps your side in the long run and this actually is even more true for town than scum. Then he seems to suggest he might play ball with Loose's plan when earlier in the day he seemed pretty set against it.

Now to the latest Loose hill that's coming down the slope.

I've said it before rag. I see peculiarities in Vots play this game.
I also see slight adjustments in his play within this game.
But to me that just makes him as likely to be vanilla town as mafia.
I just don't think putting it all together that he is TownPR.

But why are you pressing me on this?
You might suspect vot yourself?
Equally you might be mafia know vot isn't and therefore want a mislynch on vot where your hands appear to be clean?

Rag isn't wrong though. Pointing out that Vot doesn't appear to be a power role isn't really that helpful to us. If Vot is town then it just helps scum narrow down who they will visit and role block tonight. As far as Vots behavior, it's been annoying me but am not convinced it's actually scummy so much as him being an asshole who wants to insult anyone who tries to push any suggestions that he doesn't agree with and bitch about the modding.

As far as Loose's alignment, my early read was that hes been sticking to his suggestions more consistently than the last game where he kind of bounced around on ideas. The way he's gone about Vot and pointing out possible vanillaness is weirder to me but bad play=/=scum and I overall don't feel that my early read has changed that much on him.

No what you have from me is I cannot see vot is a power role townie. One virtual certainty might be better than a muddle of conjecture.

Why is that important to you? Are you trying to figure out who are the town PRs? If so, why are you role fishing like that? How does that benefit us?

Trying to catch up here, but does seem very odd behavior for LC wanting to know PR's. I'm willing to put pressure on him if need be. Otherwise, I will stick with my No Lynch. It's going to be very hard to find a fake claim in this just because of 9 vanilla townies in the mix. Easy claim for anyone to make. To me we won't find any info today unless we pressure someone with a PR to claim, and that will only hurt town. To me I say we let PR's do their thing tonight and see what comes of it tomorrow.

Woah. Did you just say... in the space of one paragraph... That it's odd for LC to want to know PRs and that "we"nere to pressure someone with a PR to claim??? Did you you just say both of these things? Did you?!?!? Yes. You. Did.

What is this word twisting? He pretty clearly said he's still in favor of no lynch because the only thing he feels we could concretely learn would be if a PR claimed under pressure "and that will hurt town." Pix's aftual post is a bit wishywashy with the I'm sticking to no lynch->I could maybe be talked into voting LC->no lynch is better argument (and then everything else he's put out there is fluff) but the post doesn't say what you say it says.

I'll try to get back later. There's still stuff I want to comment on but I think I might switch to more short form posts so I can actually keep up with the thread a bit more regularly

[Extreme Ways]

This time without errors

Votecount:
No Lynch (4) - kingm, Devante, Pixar, Traf,
Swang (3) - fusi, kongming, PMC
Devante (3) - Charle, Strike, Swang
DDS (2) - Max, Ragian
Loose Canon (1) - Votanic
Votanic (1) - Loose
Charle (1) - DDS

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Stop whining/vomiting. Vote LC for no LC. Simple.

Im not voting for LC for the same exact reason I wouldn't vote for Sonic. Isn't this the same exact shit he's done in
Every
Single
Game

This is like The Tick all over again.

[Votanic]

Rag isn't wrong though. Pointing out that Vot doesn't appear to be a power role isn't really that helpful to us. If Vot is town then it just helps scum narrow down who they will visit and role block tonight. As far as Vots behavior, it's been annoying me but am not convinced it's actually scummy so much as him being an asshole who wants to insult anyone who tries to push any suggestions that he doesn't agree with and bitch about the modding.

Welllll... I guess I'll have to start taking charm lessons from strike (hole of ass right back at'ya)
Seriously though, if ever do come across as too firm or overly critical. It's only because I have a tough job trying to hammer a bunch of lack-luster townie-recruits into a elite, high-disciplined TownGuard capable of outguessing and defeating the vile machinations of Scum. And yes indeed, this time it is even more of an uphill battle, because the artsy-fartsy, high-concept, game design has left as with minimal firepower (PRs)... all the same, TOWN SHALL PREVAIL!

As far as Loose's alignment, my early read was that hes been sticking to his suggestions more consistently than the last game where he kind of bounced around on ideas. The way he's gone about Vot and pointing out possible vanillaness is weirder to me but bad play=/=scum and I overall don't feel that my early read has changed that much on him.

strike, have you actually forgotten how LC played last game ...or are you deliberately choosing to ignore it?
Last game, Day 1, LC pushed a cockamamie scheme that was clearly anti-town and he also went on a witch-hunt against me (claiming I was 3rd Party...) because I called him on his nonsense.
Gee, that sounds pretty much the same as how he is playing this Day 1. Oh yeah, a few more minor details, he was Scum and I was Town.

[pmchugh]

The one difference with LC I see is that last game he backed off pretty quickly and avoided having this level of attention, now, he could have switched that up after getting found out pretty quickly - that's certainly possible - but he did townslip as well. I think the Loose is scum story is just too complicated for a day 1 lynch - I have to explain a lot of things in my mind for it to make sense.

I think we need to start getting a bit of consensus on targets, so I probably need a bit of a reread tomorrow.

[Charle]

It's so lonely in the saddle since my horse died

[Loose Canon]

It makes no sense for Vot to post and play like he has done this game if he has a Town PR.
I mean why change a winning formula?

It might make sense to Vot to play/post as he has if he is vanilla town, but he could just as likely be mafia - only mafia knows that.

Me - I think I WILL need to amend my play when I am mafia again.
One thing I can assure you of is that so far every time I have played with you guys I have argued/hypothesised for day 1 on what I THEN THOUGHT was the best Town strategy.
So I guess if you want to argue it this way;
In the Supermax game I was a total newbie/bad Third Party.
In the Tick Game - I was naive/bad Town.
In the Millers Hollow game - I was naive/bad Third Party
In the Wild game - I was naive/bad Third Party
In the Soap Madness game I was bad Scum (but for talking too much D1 mainly - I had been planning the fake claim D1 although I fancied bozoman to fit with game flavour but that would have given me no attempted defence at all vs Vots find)
So thats my role of shame/bad play with the cards I have been dealt.

However naivety does bring fresh eyes to existing and new situations.

Experience as scum/third party is telling me that what I feared most was Town Strategy.

And therefore whatever you guys think of my track record to date I still stick not only with what I am saying re Vot, but MORE so that leaving Traceabilty if you have a TownPR has more pros than cons.

Night 1 for Town Power

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So +1 say means go to the next surviving player on the list.

Night 2 for Town Power

Town Tracker - (minus) 1
Town Motion -2
Town Inventor -3
Town Joat -4
Towbn Even Night -5
Town Odd night -6
Town roleblocker -7

Night 3 for Town Power

Town Tracker +6
Town Motion +7
Town Inventor +8
Town Joat +9
Town Even Night +10
Town Odd night +11
Town roleblocker +12

Mafia will only be able to work out who you are AFTER you have been killed or lynched, OR WHEN ONE OF THEIR ATTEMPTED KILLS HAS FAILED, or after you have unearthed a Mafia.
We can talk about this more in D2 but I think if there is NO NIGHT KILL a Town RB or Jailer would HAVE to disclose what they had done the day after a No Kill night without the above scheme.
Town however can gain information on who wasn't the Mafia goon AFTER that TownPR is eliminated - if you follow the above scheme.
The longer a TownPR or better still PRs don't find scum the richer the treasure trove that Town will unearth eventually.
If a TownPR is blocked using this scheme there's an equal chance that they would have been blocked if they had self selected a player to use their power on.
(And please don't argue that scum can work out from the chat who in Town has a PR - if they can work that out from the chat they can work out a counterstrategy regardless of this scheme)

I WILL assume that TownPRs are using this scheme.

(Also remember if Mafia think this scheme is good they will either argue against it, or better still they will let someone else argue against it.)

And you know what, whatever Vot says he may actually secretly like this scheme if he is a Townie, (or secretly fear it if he is Mafia).

Please show me what information the scheme gives to mafia that they wouldn't be equally as likely to gain if Townies didn't use the scheme.

(I'll still take on arguments that the scheme is bad strategy but Town / TownPRs in particular please judge the scheme not its author)