Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

[HapSmo19]

This is a fine place to leave this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ

[Juan_Bottom]

Your initial comment was "trying" to understand what occurred that put our state in this situation. (your 1-4 over generalized & uninformed statements) I clarified what illegal & unethical activities the previous Gov did for years to put us here but obviously you would ignore that.

That's irrelevant. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[HapSmo19]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What was the second wrong again?

(I'm being serious)

[Phatscotty]

... Portion of a letter sent to GOP reps in Wisconsin:

"We feel that you and the people that support the dictator have to die. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families and themselves then We Will 'get rid of' (in which I mean kill) you."... Classy, eh?

See what lies do...

Very classy. I am sure the Democrats from on high will all denounce this and tell everyone to "tone down the Rhetoric" again like they did after what happened in Arizona.

Or there's could use the same excuse the Tea Party does.

They're not representative of the group.

Then again, I'm not a Democrat.

I'm pretty sure nobody is looking for excuses. Death threats are more serious than any health care program or any tax decrease.

Death threats need to be condemned, not excused.

[PopeBenXVI]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What was the second wrong again?

(I'm being serious)

The 2 wrong drugs he took did not make it right?

[Juan_Bottom]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What was the second wrong again?

(I'm being serious)

It's that just because the Democratic Governor fucked up that doesn't make it ok for the Republican one to follow suit and also f*ck up.

What the Pope said here was that because the Democrat messed things up that means that whatever bad things the Republican should be better received than they are.

I clarified what illegal & unethical activities the previous Gov did for years to put us here but obviously you would ignore that.

The 2 wrong drugs he took did not make it right?

Please stop flaming and trolling. I understand that your points have been pretty systematically disseminated and that might be frustrating. But! that only means you have a chance to grow. There's no need to flame anyone.

[GreecePwns]

1. Gov Doyle used one time stimulus money to plug deficit spending
2. Gov Doyle used one time tobacco settlement money to plug deficit spending

Agreed, stupid moves especially on the first one.

3. Gov Doyle raids hundreds of millions from the state transportation fund to plug deficit spending

In other words, he cut spending to reduce the deficit. Hmmm...that sounds like just what the Tea Party would want. But you use the word "raids" because he's the enemy.

4. Gov Doyle raises taxes on businesses and individuals by Billions of dollars to plug deficit spending

Billions? How about less than half of a billion?

5. Gov Doyle approves a no bid contract for a low speed train no one will ride

A job Walker cancelled, costing the state $810 million which went to other states

In summary, Doyle produced a surplus through creating a slightly more progressive tax and through use of some federal stimulus money on plugging the deficit. The spending increases included a use other federal stimulus SPECIFICALLY given for rail and transportation for...well, a rail project, as well as union contracts (assuming they're more favorable to unions than the previous ones).

8. Walker approves business tax cuts to offset business & personal tax hikes rammed though in 24 hours (with no public debate allowed) by Doyle the previous year (see section 4)
9. Walker takes away collective bargaining privileges that have been abused by unions over decades
10. Wisconsin Taxpayers love Walker

In summary, Walker decreased revenue in the form of reducing taxes for businesses (as well as another reduction for new businesses). He decreased spending in the future through the stripping of collective bargaining rights. He also passed a simple majority vote on a law saying tax increases require a 2/3 majority instead of a simple majority. How ironic. It seems Walker is more focused on changing the rules to favor conservative policy than actually finding the support for such policy.

The "loving him" is not true. Even conservative Rasmussen Reports says so.

[Phatscotty]

the revenue from having lower taxes will increase more than it decreases. and don't forget about jobs. Minnesota business is already moving to WI.

Hutchinson technologies moved it's core to WI, 900 jobs along with it. 900 new taxpayers that were not there before(along with the stimulus it will create in raising new buildings, construction, carpenters, road layers etc. real, productive stimulus) . It will add up in the end, that is a promise. So long as the government of Wisconsin sticks to it's guns.

Another reason I am so supportive of what Scott Walker is doing is becuase WI ending forced unionization for hte public unions will effectively surround Minnesota(Iowa, N dakota and S Dakota are all right to work states, with low to zero taxes.), and this will cause a good amount of people to leave Minnesota, especially private sector jobs and businesses. This will force Minnesota to tighten it's belt and control our deficit which is actually getting pretty out of hand. Two more missteps and we will be as bad is New Jersey is.

[Iliad]

the revenue from having lower taxes will increase more than it decreases. and don't forget about jobs. Minnesota business is already moving to WI.

Hutchinson technologies moved it's core to WI, 900 jobs along with it. 900 new taxpayers that were not there before(along with the stimulus it will create in raising new buildings, construction, carpenters, road layers etc. real, productive stimulus) . It will add up in the end, that is a promise. So long as the government of Wisconsin sticks to it's guns.

The right wing myth that lowering taxes increases revenue is just that: a myth like the trickle down theory.

[GreecePwns]

the revenue from having lower taxes will increase more than it decreases. and don't forget about jobs. Minnesota business is already moving to WI.

Hutchinson technologies moved it's core to WI, 900 jobs along with it. 900 new taxpayers that were not there before(along with the stimulus it will create in raising new buildings, construction, carpenters, road layers etc. real, productive stimulus) . It will add up in the end, that is a promise. So long as the government of Wisconsin sticks to it's guns.

The loss of the train project will cut in to that, as manufacturing plants have closed (such as the one in my above linked article) and are relocating to those other states that got WI's stimulus money and are actually spending it.

This promise didn't ring true during the Reagan years, and won't now. It hasn't rung in other country's austerity measures and it won't ring in America or even just in Wisconsin. I'm sure you also believe the wealth will just trickle down to everyone so we all can enjoy the fruit that capitalism has bore. There's a Lewis Black clip on this out there, but I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

[Phatscotty]

the revenue from having lower taxes will increase more than it decreases. and don't forget about jobs. Minnesota business is already moving to WI.

Hutchinson technologies moved it's core to WI, 900 jobs along with it. 900 new taxpayers that were not there before(along with the stimulus it will create in raising new buildings, construction, carpenters, road layers etc. real, productive stimulus) . It will add up in the end, that is a promise. So long as the government of Wisconsin sticks to it's guns.

The right wing myth that lowering taxes increases revenue is just that: a myth like the trickle down theory.

It's not a myth at all. Everything I just said about Hutchinson Tech. is true and proof that it does work.

Crunch with me will you?
#1) how much in taxes will those 900 jobs contribute? (keep in mind, these 900 jobs were not there before)
#2) how much in sales taxes is generated by those 900 workers who spend their earnings?
#3) how much taxes generated by the products and services the company itself creates?

I could go on to #16, basically in every way that people thought the stimulus of Obama would benefit the economy and create jobs, the way Wisconsin is doing it is self sustaining, ( a "green" economics).which does not increase debt, which in turn keeps interest rates lower than they would normally be, which in turn creates an environment better suited for businesses/job providers compared to other states. Not to mention, 900 people who did not have or had crappy healthcare before will now have health care, along with a sense of pride and a chance to rebuild and economic security. Take this scenario and then consider all the other companies that will move to WI in the next 2 years, and I guarantee you, the benefits will be more than 110 million dollars. not only financially better off, but also more free, and also with more people having healthcare, more jobs, more money for families/less burden on taxpayers

[GreecePwns]

1. Because of this bill and especially if they are indeed make the move to become a right-to-work state, how much will unions be weakened in the private sector?
2. How much of a negative effect will that have on wages statewide?
3. Where will the workers go for higher wages?
4. How will both the decreasing the wages of workers in state and the subsequent moving out of workers to other states effect tax revenue in-state?

It's a net loss in revenue. Businesses will make their way to WI but the union workers will make their way to Minnesota, Scotty. They don't just disappear.

So to make up for that, since WI must live within its means, it must cut something more.

[HapSmo19]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What was the second wrong again?

(I'm being serious)

It's that just because the Democratic Governor fucked up that doesn't make it ok for the Republican one to follow suit and also f*ck up.

That's not an actual answer though.

What was the second wrong?

[Juan_Bottom]

I don't think you understood that quite clearly. Thing number one is the Democrat screwing up. Thing number two is the Republican screwing up. They don't cancel each other out.

[Phatscotty]

1. Because of this bill and especially if they are indeed make the move to become a right-to-work state, how much will unions be weakened in the private sector?
2. How much of a negative effect will that have on wages statewide?
3. Where will the workers go for higher wages?
4. How will both the decreasing the wages of workers in state and the subsequent moving out of workers to other states effect tax revenue in-state?

It's a net loss in revenue. Businesses will make their way to WI but the union workers will make their way to Minnesota, Scotty. They don't just disappear.

So to make up for that, since WI must live within its means, it must cut something more.

whoa, I thought this was about the "myth that lowering taxes increases revenues"

Why did you switch it to the union issue? and, seriously, let's crunch those numbers I shared a post ago. I will get some average salaries.

I will be happy to go through your post about the unions and it's effects, but lets go one at a time

[GreecePwns]

1. Because of this bill and especially if they are indeed make the move to become a right-to-work state, how much will unions be weakened in the private sector?
2. How much of a negative effect will that have on wages statewide?
3. Where will the workers go for higher wages?
4. How will both the decreasing the wages of workers in state and the subsequent moving out of workers to other states effect tax revenue in-state?

It's a net loss in revenue. Businesses will make their way to WI but the union workers will make their way to Minnesota, Scotty. They don't just disappear.

So to make up for that, since WI must live within its means, it must cut something more.

whoa, I thought this was about the "myth that lowering taxes increases revenues"

Why did you switch it to the union issue? and, seriously, let's crunch those numbers I shared a post ago. I will get some average salaries.

I will be happy to go through your post about the unions and it's effects, but lets go one at a time

I meant that to be the response to the second part about the right-to-work states surrounding Minnesota and forgot to quote. Sorry for the confusion there.

And I hope you realize those are rhetorical questions.

[HapSmo19]

I don't think you understood that quite clearly. Thing number one is the Democrat screwing up. Thing number two is the Republican screwing up. They don't cancel each other out.

I don't think you are understanding quite clearly so let me ask you in plain english: What exactly was it that the Republican(s) did wrong here?

[Phatscotty]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789//vp ... 2#42028092

So you see, exactly as I have said in the past the Union "said" they would make concessions, but never actually "did".

I know unions.

[GreecePwns]

1. Because of this bill and especially if they are indeed make the move to become a right-to-work state, how much will unions be weakened in the private sector?
2. How much of a negative effect will that have on wages statewide?
3. Where will the workers go for higher wages?
4. How will both the decreasing the wages of workers in state and the subsequent moving out of workers to other states effect tax revenue in-state?

It's a net loss in revenue. Businesses will make their way to WI but the union workers will make their way to Minnesota, Scotty. They don't just disappear.

So to make up for that, since WI must live within its means, it must cut something more.

whoa, I thought this was about the "myth that lowering taxes increases revenues"

Why did you switch it to the union issue? and, seriously, let's crunch those numbers I shared a post ago. I will get some average salaries.

I will be happy to go through your post about the unions and it's effects, but lets go one at a time

Getting average salaries now to crunch numbers will overestimate the effects, as these two are related here. The right-to-work switch will effectively lower salaries due to the the weakening of unions. Lower salaries means lower consumption, and both mean lower tax revenues. Now add to that that rail manufacturing plants are on the way out because of the stimulus money loss, and in the end all you get is a giant free-rider problem.

[Phatscotty]

Sep 2, 2010 ... Glassdoor is your free inside look at Hutchinson Technology salary details - including average salary, bonus, and total pay

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Hutchin ... -E1498.htm

note: the managers positions and corporate earnings are not included, but they are going to generate more revenue than the rest of the other employees. 6.5% of 300k is a lot more than 5.6% of 55k

Process Development Engineer
$61,000
$52k-$67k

Senior Process Engineer

$85,625
$78k-$93k

Product Design Engineer

$63,959
$55k-$73k

Technician - Hourly

$14.01/hr $9-$19

Process Design Engineer - Monthly

$5,991/mo
$5,229-$6,753
Looking for a job? See the latest Jobs in Minneapolis (oops I mean Wisconsin)

Biomedical Research Scientist - Monthly

$8,192/mo
$7,698-$8,685

Trace Process Engineer - Monthly

$4,984/mo

Wisconsin tax rates

5% sales tax, .5% county sales tax

Wisconsin gets an additional average of about 6% of every penny all 900 of these people earn (9-10% in MN) http://www.revenue.wi.gov/faqs/pcs/taxrates.html#tx1a

Ciggarette, liquor, gas, and many other taxes these employees will pay can only be speculated, but you know it's a plus.

Honestly, it will not take that many more companies moving to WI to pass 110 million dollars...that is where the myth becomes reality.

[GreecePwns]

There's also the business tax cuts and further cuts for new companies. The idea that so many companies will be flocking to Wisconsin that they will make up for the deep cuts in revenue is defying the Laffer curve. Crunch all the numbers you want, but history and economics are not on your side here.

Bush's chief economist said it well. "You are smart people. You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues. You know what it takes to establish causality. You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues. We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one."

Then there's the reduction of salaries elsewhere. It's entirely speculative of you to assume the salaries will be the same in Wisconsin, for one. If anything, they'd be far less because of the weakening of the unions through the move to become a right-to-work state. So less salaries means less in income tax and sales tax collected.

Moves like these are almost purely politically motivated.

So Scotty, Wisconsin is not living within its means. Where should they cut spending now?

[Phatscotty]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=113826

a lot of people will make more also. welcome to a performance based environment and a step towards personal responsibility.

You can bet your ass there are a lot of teachers in Wisconsin figuring out how to up their performance. This is a large part of the answer to an education system that is flat failing our children more every year.

[PLAYER57832]

There's also the business tax cuts and further cuts for new companies. The idea that so many companies will be flocking to Wisconsin that they will make up for the deep cuts in revenue is defying the Laffer curve. Crunch all the numbers you want, but history and economics are not on your side here.

Bush's chief economist said it well. "You are smart people. You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues. You know what it takes to establish causality. You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues. We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one."

Then there's the reduction of salaries elsewhere. It's entirely speculative of you to assume the salaries will be the same in Wisconsin, for one. If anything, they'd be far less because of the weakening of the unions through the move to become a right-to-work state. So less salaries means less in income tax and sales tax collected.

Moves like these are almost purely politically motivated.

So Scotty, Wisconsin is not living within its means. Where should they cut spending now?

The tea party doesn't seem to get that when they object to "government" they are just handing the keys to their house over to the wealthy, the largest companies.

If you want to see who currently has power in this country, just try to go up against Walmart.

[GreecePwns]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=113826

a lot of people will make more also. welcome to a performance based environment and a step towards personal responsibility.

You can bet your ass there are a lot of teachers in Wisconsin figuring out how to up their performance. This is a large part of the answer to an education system that is flat failing our children more every year.

In other words, you're saying competition will make up for the busted unions, even in the private sector?

I really do have to find that Lewis Black clip now, don't I?

[Woodruff]

... Portion of a letter sent to GOP reps in Wisconsin:

"We feel that you and the people that support the dictator have to die. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families and themselves then We Will 'get rid of' (in which I mean kill) you."

... Classy, eh?

See what lies do...

I'm wondering if that's not a lie in itself. I'm not at all accusing Nobunaga of lying (he's always struck me as being very upfront)...rather, where his information may be coming from.