ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

[saxitoxin]

The unfortunate reality is that ISIS is unstoppable and unbeatable.

I don't think so, saxi.
Hell, Turkey could wipe ISIS off the map if they wanted to and developed the will to do so. Thus far, those who could crush ISIS have decided to simply watch from the sideline for whatever reason.

Even the US was content to just watch until ISIS threatened Erbil. I guess Erbil is the red line to US interests, with good reason I suppose and it was Erbil's threatened fall that finally spurred the US into action.


But I do tentatively agree with you that the Islamic wars with itself is primarily between the modernists and the fundamentals.

I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

However, if I were betting, I would say the U.S. is not really bombing ISIS. The Obama regime has to do this to play off the hysteria of Arabphobic Republicans and AIPAC-owned Democrats; Rand Paul, for instance, Mr Non-Intervention, is now calling for the U.S. to rain fire from the skies.

No one knows precisely where U.S. bombs are falling but MCIR troops are integrated with ISIS force at the moment. The U.S. hates the MCIR since it is committed to restoring Ba'athism in Iraq. The regime can get Americans lined up behind a new war to stop beheadings by religious nuts (ISIS), but they can't get Americans lined up behind a new war to stop Ba'athism (MCIR). But, if the MCIR is destroyed then ISIS will expand to fill the vacuum. So, I don't think in terms of men and materiale at this moment ISIS is unstoppable - I think in terms of the brilliant strategy it's laid out to play-off all the lethargic and immobile alliances the U.S. has strung itself up in, it will be unstoppable. The U.S.' weakness is its lumbering political system - not the quality of its aircraft or the number of its tanks. ISIS is attacking the weak point. The U.S.' jugular is spurting blood all over the room from where I'm sitting.

[Serbia]

This thread is displaying a third page, yet the third page is empty. This post serves to rectify that. Carry on.

Bollocks.

[strike wolf]

Click image to enlarge.

Seriously though, I don't think there is anything I can say that hasn't already been said. They are the product of the U.S. arming Syrian rebels with American weapons that were trafficked across the border to Iraq. They now seem to be using the instability of the region their new toys to try and take over the country. They have not only been successful so far but seem to be well-organized compared to some of the other organizations that I have heard them compared to.

[BigBallinStalin]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE% ... 8035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

[Pirlo]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88/%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88-%D9%87%D9%83%D8%B0%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%85-%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-5845728035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

In another video, I saw them distributing toys and presents... Their accent belong to North Africa (Libya, Tunisia.. etc) It seems to be the most radicals are those north african immigrants to Europe... I think they can be useful if scientists left the poor animals alone and start making their tests on these assholes instead!

[GoranZ]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88/%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88-%D9%87%D9%83%D8%B0%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%85-%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-5845728035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

[BigBallinStalin]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88/%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88-%D9%87%D9%83%D8%B0%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%85-%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-5845728035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

As shitty as it sounds, he did keep extreme Islamists under control--while keeping extreme 'Freedomites' under control, so it's difficult to immediately support autocrats.

[BigBallinStalin]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88/%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88-%D9%87%D9%83%D8%B0%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%85-%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-5845728035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

In another video, I saw them distributing toys and presents... Their accent belong to North Africa (Libya, Tunisia.. etc) It seems to be the most radicals are those north african immigrants to Europe... I think they can be useful if scientists left the poor animals alone and start making their tests on these assholes instead!

The problem is with identifying which humans deserve such treatment. Consider the US's history of torturing people: Some group is dedicated and will withstrand extreme torture without releasing information. The other group are innocent yet will still withstand torture without revealing the information demanded. The problem is that the torturers--even those who have good intentions--can't tell the difference between the two.

Given this, I wouldn't support torturing people--nor trusting government to select those who they deem worthy for scientific experiments. Let's not repeat what the Nazis did...

[patches70]

What? I dunno man, the trick is to make sure that the person(s) you are torturing actually have the information needed. Torturing for fishing expeditions is pointless, so I agree with that much.

But if you have a subject and you have a very good idea that they have the information you require, then torturing is extremely effective.

For instance, if I wanted to gain access to your PIN number of your bank card, I can guarantee you that in just a few minutes you would certainly tell me that PIN number. You may even try to lie, but the false information you give can be easily verified to be false, and then the torture would continue until you did eventually give in and tell me your PIN number.
However, if I wanted to get the PIN number from your neighbor's bank card, no amount of torture in the world performed upon you would get me that information.
A good torturer would know that it would be pointless in that case. Thus, you'd just get a bullet to the head while I kidnap your neighbor and torture him to get his PIN.

It is not determining if the victim is innocent, it's determining the probability that the intended victim actually has the information desired. And that's not as hard as you may think.

This assumes the person(s) doing the torturing actually know what they are doing. I think there was a movie about such a case, had The Rock and Mark Walbergh in it and it was based on a true story. They kidnap a guy and try to torture him to steal all his money. They steal a lot of the guy's assets but they were really bad at torture. They even screwed up royally when they tried to kill him, and that got them caught eventually. But the guy wouldn't give, because the torturers were incompetent. To steal his assets they ended up just forging his signature and other such types of fraud. A truly gifted torturer would have had the guy singing like a canary in no time at all.

Everyone breaks. Some sooner than others.

[BigBallinStalin]

What? I dunno man, the trick is to make sure that the person(s) you are torturing actually have the information needed. Torturing for fishing expeditions is pointless, so I agree with that much.

But if you have a subject and you have a very good idea that they have the information you require, then torturing is extremely effective.

For instance, if I wanted to gain access to your PIN number of your bank card, I can guarantee you that in just a few minutes you would certainly tell me that PIN number. You may even try to lie, but the false information you give can be easily verified to be false, and then the torture would continue until you did eventually give in and tell me your PIN number.
However, if I wanted to get the PIN number from your neighbor's bank card, no amount of torture in the world performed upon you would get me that information.
A good torturer would know that it would be pointless in that case. Thus, you'd just get a bullet to the head while I kidnap your neighbor and torture him to get his PIN.

It is not determining if the victim is innocent, it's determining the probability that the intended victim actually has the information desired. And that's not as hard as you may think.

This assumes the person(s) doing the torturing actually know what they are doing. I think there was a movie about such a case, had The Rock and Mark Walbergh in it and it was based on a true story. They kidnap a guy and try to torture him to steal all his money. They steal a lot of the guy's assets but they were really bad at torture. They even screwed up royally when they tried to kill him, and that got them caught eventually. But the guy wouldn't give, because the torturers were incompetent. To steal his assets they ended up just forging his signature and other such types of fraud. A truly gifted torturer would have had the guy singing like a canary in no time at all.

Everyone breaks. Some sooner than others.

Sure, bro. I base my opinions on the alleged effectiveness of torture by consulting hollywood films too.

[Army of GOD]

I love how the argument around torture is if it's effective or not, not if it's humane or not.

[BigBallinStalin]

I love how the argument around torture is if it's effective or not, not if it's humane or not.

For some, it doesn't matter how humane it is because they'll claim that it's still necessary.

[shickingbrits]

It's not necessary though:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/

[GoranZ]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88/%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88-%D9%87%D9%83%D8%B0%D8%A7-%D9%8A%D8%AA%D9%85-%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-5845728035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

As shitty as it sounds, he did keep extreme Islamists under control--while keeping extreme 'Freedomites' under control, so it's difficult to immediately support autocrats.

Overall Saddam was many times better then any postSaddam ruler in Iraq + he exactly knew how to talk with the Islamist(they only speak one language).

[muy_thaiguy]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE% ... 8035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

As shitty as it sounds, he did keep extreme Islamists under control--while keeping extreme 'Freedomites' under control, so it's difficult to immediately support autocrats.

Overall Saddam was many times better then any postSaddam ruler in Iraq + he exactly knew how to talk with the Islamist(they only speak one language).

There was 1 tiny little thing going against him though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

[shickingbrits]

I see your link and I raise you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... l-weapons/

[saxitoxin]

I see your link and I raise you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... l-weapons/

The most salient quote from your link; something I've been saying over and over again here on CC, within days after the Syrian Arab Army's alleged chemical-based self-defense action in fact, and people simply go "oh, Saxi - whaddya know? go away, ol' Saxi!"

Indeed, Syria’s chemical weapons stockpile results from a never-acknowledged gentleman’s agreement in the Middle East that as long as Israel had nuclear weapons, Syria’s pursuit of chemical weapons would not attract much public acknowledgement or criticism. (The Fact Checker, when serving as The Washington Post’s diplomatic correspondent, learned of this secret arrangement from Middle Eastern and Western diplomats, but it was never officially confirmed.)

[shickingbrits]

That is a salient quote. For the purposes of this thread, I prefer:

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the “human wave” attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague….

This one is to rebuke muy_thai:

Without much apparent irony, two decades later Rumsfeld and other members of the then George W. Bush administration repeatedly cited Hussein’s use of chemical weapons against own people as a justification for invading Iraq.

What I enjoy most about this article of course is how circumspect it has to be. Not one mention of the Iran-contra scandal. That we were intentionally supplying weapons to both sides and upsetting the region, providing the types of weapons that would lead to greater destruction than either side was capable of and have generally been giving people a WWF experience for their tax dollars.

[GoranZ]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE% ... 8035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

As shitty as it sounds, he did keep extreme Islamists under control--while keeping extreme 'Freedomites' under control, so it's difficult to immediately support autocrats.

Overall Saddam was many times better then any postSaddam ruler in Iraq + he exactly knew how to talk with the Islamist(they only speak one language).

There was 1 tiny little thing going against him though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Do you realize how idiotic you sound when you talk about how others used WMD?

1. US is the only nation in the world that used Nuclear Weapons on enemy's civilian target, and you guys did it multiple times.
2. US used chemical weapons in Vietnam on large scale. Where do you think Saddam learned that tactic?
3. Who helped Iraq to make the chemical weapons you are talking about... It wasn't USSR
According to Iraqi documents, assistance in developing chemical weapons was obtained from firms in many countries, including the United States, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and France.
etc...

[tzor]

2. US used chemical weapons in Vietnam on large scale. Where do you think Saddam learned that tactic?

A minor nit pick on point #2. Agent Orange was a defoliant. It was not designed to deliberately make people sick, although that was an unintended side effect. Source for the following:

Agent Orange was first developed at the University of Chicago during World War II. Professor E.J. Kraus identified a way to control the growth of plants by injecting them with hormones. Broadleaf vegetation was especially susceptible to sudden, rapid growth, which caused plant death.

The hormone theory was picked up by civilian scientists, and they developed a marketable product for controlling weeds along railroad rights of way and roadsides, as well as in private lawns.

The Army renewed their efforts to build on what they knew and found that combining 2,4-D with 2,4,5-T² made a deadly cocktail for the foliage. Unfortunately, what the scientists didn’t know (or covered up) was that 2,4,5-T contained dioxin, a useless but deadly by-product of herbicide production. It was discovered to produce skin diseases and liver damage in both the Vietnamese population and U.S. veterans exposed to it.

This is important. While it can never be proven, that my father's exposure to the civilian equivalent of Agent Orange from the Long Island Rail Road adjacent to where his parents lived was responsible for my cleft lip several decades later, we can't rule it out either. Never the less, this was not an attempt to use chemical warfare at a civilian population, but a general problem with unintended consequences of advanced chemicals.

[shickingbrits]

Tzor- "Well see, we were just doing some gardening in Vietnam, military was free so we sent them. Tried to help them with theirs weeds and wouldn't ya know? It turns out those military planes were dropping weapons! "

Tzor, have you lost your mind?

[tzor]

Tzor, have you lost your mind?

Oh no, I keep it locked and secure in my safe,

[shickingbrits]

You locked it and gave the government the key. They'll keep it safe for you. Just don't ask them to help you with your garden.

[muy_thaiguy]

http://www.aleteia.org/ar/%D8%A3%D8%AE% ... 8035340288

Good video straight from IS. Watch how they indoctrinate kids!

Where is Saddam Husein when you need him? He exactly knew how to handle ISIS and other look alike organizations.

As shitty as it sounds, he did keep extreme Islamists under control--while keeping extreme 'Freedomites' under control, so it's difficult to immediately support autocrats.

Overall Saddam was many times better then any postSaddam ruler in Iraq + he exactly knew how to talk with the Islamist(they only speak one language).

There was 1 tiny little thing going against him though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Do you realize how idiotic you sound when you talk about how others used WMD?

1. US is the only nation in the world that used Nuclear Weapons on enemy's civilian target, and you guys did it multiple times.
2. US used chemical weapons in Vietnam on large scale. Where do you think Saddam learned that tactic?
3. Who helped Iraq to make the chemical weapons you are talking about... It wasn't USSR
According to Iraqi documents, assistance in developing chemical weapons was obtained from firms in many countries, including the United States, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and France.
etc...

Point missed.
I was pointing out that Saddam deliberately targeted the Kurds to try and wipe them out. You know, the one group that isn't stuck in continuous tribal warfare, not afraid to fight the terroristic ISIS, are not radicals, and do not target civilians?

I'm not going to make excuses for what happened out of my control, but it doesn't mean I'm going to overlook these sorts of things either when others will.
1. Yes, we used the A-bomb on Japan. An evil, but at the time, considered the lesser of two evils (before it was understood the after effects of radiation from them), as the alternative was a massive land invasion in order to end an already long and costly war.
2. Tzor covered Agent Orange.
3. You make it sound like all US citizens approve of whatever the US government does, especially when it happened say, before I was born/too young to even understand it at the time. Kind of shows your understanding (or lack thereof) of Americans and Western countries in general.

But yeah, my point was that Saddam targeted a group for genocide, the means of which don't really matter, but that he tried. But let's just forget about it and pretend nothing like that happened, after all, he otherwise kept Iraq stable. Right?

[mrswdk]

1. Yes, we used the A-bomb on Japan.
...
3. You make it sound like all US citizens approve of whatever the US government does, especially when it happened say, before I was born/too young to even understand it at the time

Well, the atom bombs were dropped before you were born and yet you're talking about that as if you were collectively involved in it. Stand to reason you (and other Americans) were collectively involved in more recent US government actions too.