Siege II -new map-

[Evil DIMwit]

Oh, and while you're making the next version, you might as well number the Z territories so we can discuss them more easily.

[porkenbeans]

Did the Merlin thing get dropped? I'd like to see that instituted. Maybe he could have some special one-way attacks and he'd have an auto-deploy as his bonus? Also, I don't understand the point of C4 - C6. They don't have cannons (which I assume one-way bombard certain territories?).

I have yet to draw the cannons for that side. Was thinking, (maybe), to put archers there instead.

[porkenbeans]

Oh, and while you're making the next version, you might as well number the Z territories so we can discuss them more easily.

Will do.

[Teflon Kris]

Very nice development mate.

There are currently 3 ways in to the castle - the two tunnels coming out in the same place. Maybe a complex underground tunnel system would take up too much room - however, maybe the tunnels could also connect to a trap door in G or L, or maybe C (4 to 6)?

Having archers would be well cool - especially on C.

I'm still thinking having the boats as starting points would really make the gameplay stand out a mile from Siege 1. They would need to not be able to attack one another (as per the Danelaw map - btw what happened to it) to prevent the quick kill (and then to make them kill-able eventually, they could be bombardable from C1 to 3.

With, or without, boats as starting points, they could perhaps be spread out a bit? So that, some have quicker access to different castle entrances?

There could probably do with some impassables between the bonus areas to the south of the castle but this can be looked at later maybe. The question of starting points or not will impact on how everything else works outside the castle so is worth addressing first.

[Victor Sullivan]

Very nice development mate.

There are currently 3 ways in to the castle - the two tunnels coming out in the same place. Maybe a complex underground tunnel system would take up too much room - however, maybe the tunnels could also connect to a trap door in G or L, or maybe C (4 to 6)?

Having archers would be well cool - especially on C.

I'm still thinking having the boats as starting points would really make the gameplay stand out a mile from Siege 1. They would need to not be able to attack one another (as per the Danelaw map - btw what happened to it) to prevent the quick kill (and then to make them kill-able eventually, they could be bombardable from C1 to 3.

With, or without, boats as starting points, they could perhaps be spread out a bit? So that, some have quicker access to different castle entrances?

There could probably do with some impassables between the bonus areas to the south of the castle but this can be looked at later maybe. The question of starting points or not will impact on how everything else works outside the castle so is worth addressing first.

I agree with everything. The boats as starting places I think would set this map, like he said, apart from the other siege map. The archers sound cool, too btw. Maybe their bombardments are different from the cannons? Also, what happened to Merlin? You never addressed it when you quoted me:

Did the Merlin thing get dropped? I'd like to see that instituted. Maybe he could have some special one-way attacks and he'd have an auto-deploy as his bonus? Also, I don't understand the point of C4 - C6. They don't have cannons (which I assume one-way bombard certain territories?).

I have yet to draw the cannons for that side. Was thinking, (maybe), to put archers there instead.

-Sully

[Teflon Kris]

The archers sound cool, too btw. Maybe their bombardments are different from the cannons?

Yeah, I think my previous sketches may have mentionned this:

With boat starting points, C1 to C3 would be suitable spots to bombard the boats,

and, C4 to C6 (plus maybe some wall positions) could be Archers to bombard some of the areas south of the castle (hills, pasture etc). This could be made even more interesting if there were some regions 'sheltered' from the Archers (e.g. by bits of old ruin walls etc.).

[porkenbeans]

About the boats as starting positions, I thought about it, but could not come up with a good way to do it. In maps with starting positions, the starting positions are spread out across the map so that they are pretty much equally apart from each other. So unless I redraw the map as an "island castle", Starting positions is out.

About the archers, well maybe we could just make them bombard something different, than the cannons do ?

I would not be against bringing in wizards, or dragons, or whatever, but I do not want anything that is name specific to any other books, such as "Merlin". Also, how would I place them, and what would be their function ?

I do not want to over-pack the map with too many items. The "Z" territs need to be divided and named, so I would ask for input on that first. Once we decide the layout, along with the impasses, then we need to figure out the bonus amounts. I just threw up some numbers for the time being, to show how the legend could be laid out. I do not want to make the legend any larger than what it is now.

[Victor Sullivan]

You should make T2 the Merlin or "Warlin" or "Zoran" or something. This way, you don't have to add any territories, plus, he's in a sensible spot. Maybe he could bombard all wall territories? I'm thinking maybe an auto-deploy 1 for him too? Idk, I just really like the idea of the king's right-hand wizard.

-Sully

P.S. Could you put the newest version of your map in your first post?

[Teflon Kris]

Starting positions is out.

Are you sure - they could literally be 'outside' - each in a small inset. Each start could enter the map by a choice of, say, 4 entrances - which could be different locations in the lake / swamp - or maybe any of the lake / swamp regions at the edge of the map. It could be done by squashing the bottom part of the map, then having the boats in a line, each with a mini-inset patterned border square. It would work something like the commander start positions in the Russian Revolution map - legend would just need to say - 'boats one way attack ... regions'.

[porkenbeans]

You should make T2 the Merlin or "Warlin" or "Zoran" or something. This way, you don't have to add any territories, plus, he's in a sensible spot. Maybe he could bombard all wall territories? I'm thinking maybe an auto-deploy 1 for him too? Idk, I just really like the idea of the king's right-hand wizard.

-Sully

P.S. Could you put the newest version of your map in your first post?

You may have a good idea here. I will put some thought on this.

[porkenbeans]

Starting positions is out.

Are you sure - they could literally be 'outside' - each in a small inset. Each start could enter the map by a choice of, say, 4 entrances - which could be different locations in the lake / swamp - or maybe any of the lake / swamp regions at the edge of the map. It could be done by squashing the bottom part of the map, then having the boats in a line, each with a mini-inset patterned border square. It would work something like the commander start positions in the Russian Revolution map - legend would just need to say - 'boats one way attack ... regions'.

I am a fan of "starting position" maps, however I dislike the use of insets. It is disruptive of the art as a whole. It is fine with a more standard type map, but this style is more in the line of a diorama, I want the art to be a main focus. So chopping it up, and adding a bunch of inset boxes is counter to that end.

I like the idea of a starting position map project, and I would like to do an island castle map that has that GP. If you were to sketch out a general layout of something in that vane, I would be happy to try my hand at the artwork.

[Teflon Kris]

You have a point about insets' effect on the overall artwork. And yes, I'll sketch out a different set-up with starts (plus, let you know of some other ideas I have too)..

Anyway, the Zs - could be a seperate bonus group of dwellings / farms or other buildings? They could be part of a large Village area combining most of the Zs and Ps perhaps..

If T2 were an auto-deploy wizard, it would make the King, T2 and Great Hall easy to hold (in Siege 1, the Throne and Great Hall are the first place experienced players head for) - maybe T2 would then need to be moved up slightly to make room for a wizard as a seperate region - or maybe he should be in the right-hand tower? And maybe auto-deploy for the Queen?

[porkenbeans]

You have a point about insets' effect on the overall artwork. And yes, I'll sketch out a different set-up with starts (plus, let you know of some other ideas I have too)..

Anyway, the Zs - could be a seperate bonus group of dwellings / farms or other buildings? They could be part of a large Village area combining most of the Zs and Ps perhaps..

If T2 were an auto-deploy wizard, it would make the King, T2 and Great Hall easy to hold (in Siege 1, the Throne and Great Hall are the first place experienced players head for) - maybe T2 would then need to be moved up slightly to make room for a wizard as a seperate region - or maybe he should be in the right-hand tower? And maybe auto-deploy for the Queen?

the Zs - could be a seperate bonus group of dwellings / farms or other buildings? They could be part of a large Village area combining most of the Zs and Ps perhaps..

Yes, I was thinking along these lines.

T2 would then need to be moved up slightly to make room for a wizard as a separate region

What if I move the wall from the bottom of T2 to the left side of T2. This would wall off the King and Hall from T2. Then make T2 the Wizard. This would give the Wizard a "sneaky" mobility.

Then to tamp down the advantage of going for the king and hall area, we could make the king start out with a high neutral.

Do you think that we should bring in the one way planks onto the castle walls from outside ? (like Siege I ) ?

[Teflon Kris]

What if I move the wall from the bottom of T2 to the left side of T2. This would wall off the King and Hall from T2. Then make T2 the Wizard. This would give the Wizard a "sneaky" mobility.

Sounds a good arrangement for the Wizard to me - would the Wizard have access to W1 and R1 (as well as the other Ts)?

Then to tamp down the advantage of going for the king and hall area, we could make the king start out with a high neutral.

I'd still be worried about the King and Hall though - there would only be one way in. Is there room for another tunnel entrance between W4 and G1? Or maybe some steps going in from W4? Or even steps from G2 to C4?

Do you think that we should bring in the one way planks onto the castle walls from outside ? (like Siege I ) ?

It may make the two maps too similar - might be better to increase the tunnel connections instead (around X or Z by P1 perhaps), or the catapult idea?

[Bruceswar]

Click image to enlarge.

Can you take out the X next to B4. It would seem to make the game play better. Make it a shallow area?

Also what about P4 and P3 as Canon's to fire back

Then W7, 8, 9, 10 as Archers. Making C4, 5, 6, as such would not make much sense as archers cannot fire that long. An attack range of 2 would be plenty for an archer.

So W7 would be able to attack L1, L2, L3, S2, P1

[Teflon Kris]

Can you take out the X next to B4. It would seem to make the game play better. Make it a shallow area?

Also what about P4 and P3 as Canon's to fire back

Then W7, 8, 9, 10 as Archers. Making C4, 5, 6, as such would not make much sense as archers cannot fire that long. An attack range of 2 would be plenty for an archer.

So W7 would be able to attack L1, L2, L3, S2, P1

Great ideas Bruce - finding a succinct way to describe range can be tricky but I'm sure it could be done without using much space.

[Bruceswar]

Great ideas Bruce - finding a succinct way to describe range can be tricky but I'm sure it could be done without using much space.

just put Archers attack 2 spots in any direction, and canons can bombard. Just like waterloo

[Bruceswar]

Can you take out the X next to B4. It would seem to make the game play better. Make it a shallow area?

Also what about P4 and P3 as Canon's to fire back

Then W7, 8, 9, 10 as Archers. Making C4, 5, 6, as such would not make much sense as archers cannot fire that long. An attack range of 2 would be plenty for an archer.

So W7 would be able to attack L1, L2, L3, S2, P1

Great ideas Bruce - finding a succinct way to describe range can be tricky but I'm sure it could be done without using much space.

Also P4 and P3 could be catapults to fire back. Either or would be ok.

[porkenbeans]

Can you take out the X next to B4. It would seem to make the game play better. Make it a shallow area?

Also what about P4 and P3 as Canon's to fire back

Then W7, 8, 9, 10 as Archers. Making C4, 5, 6, as such would not make much sense as archers cannot fire that long. An attack range of 2 would be plenty for an archer.

So W7 would be able to attack L1, L2, L3, S2, P1

Great ideas Bruce - finding a succinct way to describe range can be tricky but I'm sure it could be done without using much space.

Also P4 and P3 could be catapults to fire back. Either or would be ok.

Yes, I like this idea. I was thinking the same thing. ...Stay tuned.

[Teflon Kris]

W7, 8, 9, 10 as Archers. Making C4, 5, 6, as such would not make much sense as archers cannot fire that long. An attack range of 2 would be plenty for an archer.

So W7 would be able to attack L1, L2, L3, S2, P1

This means S, L and P bonuses can be broken by archers and B bonus broken by archers and B bonus by canons.

This would leave H, R & F as safer bonuses. Perhaps we would want one or two (but not all - such is the gameplay beauty of Waterloo) to be bombardable? Perhaps the canons could bombard F as well as B? And maybe an archer on W9 (so he can bombard R but not H). This would leave H as a bonus area safe from archers, which, game-play-wise, would the better of the 3 areas to be safe. Certainly, if F were safe, the gameplay would often revolve around initial battles for that area, as, once held, it would probably stay held.

We would also have less of a feature of the right-hand tower. However, that could have canons (maybe two on each tower that players cant move from - again, a la Waterloo), or, this would be the Wizard's tower (and potential associated +1 or other feature)?

[Victor Sullivan]

I'm afraid I'm not quite following everything, as I haven't checked this thread in awhile You think you could put up an updated draft soon?

[Bruceswar]

looking forward to an update

[porkenbeans]

I have not had much time to work on this. But as soon as I do, I will bang out something rather quick. So please keep the suggestions coming. I appreciate them all, even if I think they are bad. So far, there have not been any really bad ones.

[Bruceswar]

any progress?

[DubWarrior]

DAMN! I love those graphics, I love them, I love them!
sorry if I don't add any great ideas but those graphics...I mean
How did you do that? Is it photoshop?
I like the siege-idea btw, will take some time to run through the gameplaydiscussion so I can add some thoughts too.
keep up the work plz!