[ACC Round 2] 1st Reg. v. AOD [25-24] of 51pts - Final

[General Brock II]

This is part of the problem that the CLA has been working on. There is no standard 12H Courtesy Rule definition. Everytime AOD's been asked/forced to use it, there have been problems of some sort. We were going to let the 12H violations slide until the Poker game essentially corrupted and decided the war which is not fair to either team. An advantage was gained, so I would have preferred the game to be voided. However, DJ indicated he would not do that, so our only avenue to create a fair outcome was to invoke the 12H rule violations.

DJ's ACC thread states a very generic, and has no reference to the current CLA definition which is not approved yet:

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

Something this generic will be left to interpretations.

JP, the 12 hours fog rule has been finalized... It really should be posted somewhere in the public forums. Both you and I have access to it, obviously.

In fact, of the votes "FOR", : "1st Reg/KOA/GR/OSA/AOD/RA/BSS/G1/TSM/Empire/VDLL/TNC/AKA/AOC/Myth/PIG/DB/Dynasty/nemisis

Both you and I voted for this rule (and it passed by a significant margin). As such, you've really got no grounds to contend it, now. You found it satisfactory, then, and it should be so, now.

The pertinent text is as follows,

"If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information). If all information is provided accurately after the accidental breaking of the agreement, absolutely no consequences shall result of the turn being taken early.

The agreement can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;
a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start. (Conquer Style Maps ie. Antartica, AoR I, AoR II, AoR III, Clandemonium, Feudal, Feudal Epic, Jamaica, King’s Court, Lunar War, Monsters, Peloponnesian War, Woodboro, WWII Poland)

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup"

Secondly, Italianipastido posted the remedial measures in the Arms Race match. As Kenny did in the British Isles game, Italiani posted what Agent deployed and what he forted.

And eddie's right... If it had been let go in the past, it shouldn't rightfully be trumped up, now. In fact, in the courts, if a past accusation has failed to draw a penalty, then an individual can't be prosecuted for that same accusation, again.

Thanks, Kenny, for your input.

[Leehar]

Still, that 12h rule hasn't been put into practice yet, so we're all still working off DJ's version which inexplicably states the correct procedure to follow. Just because there wasn't anything on the missed turns, doesn't mean the current applicable scenario with the fog turns can't be applied

[Ickyketseddie]

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

[jpcloet]

The 12H rule in the ACC is not the same as the CLA's definition, and one should not jump to that conclusion with faulty logic.

The only reason we are talking about the rule is because DJ won't void the Poker game, and made very weak allowances for you guys showing up late to games. You did not get penalized in any way previously and still have not. DJ gave you guys so much leeway, and then AOD gets screwed on a deadbeat. I had to play a 1v1 where you could not win, but I had to win to get the point. I still won even with that.

It pains me that a war has to come down to a decision like this. It's crap like this that means more an more clans are sitting out events, I'd rather play real wars where we controls the rules like timing out etc. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that you won based on Poker and the letter of law is what gets me more. You are responsible for you clan members actions (better or for worse). That game should be voided IMO.

[Leehar]

Yeah, jpc has it right, in both cases I'm supporting following the actual procedures already given in the competition then trying to bring in somewhat more arbitrary or external ones

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

[murphy16]

I don't see how you can call in unintentional, Mr. CD had someone take his turn, so how is it that in a clan battle one man happens to dead beat and no one look after him, unintentional or not, it's very fishy and not a good way for a new clan to gain a good rep.

[General Brock II]

Yeah, jpc has it right, in both cases I'm supporting following the actual procedures already given in the competition then trying to bring in somewhat more arbitrary or external ones

Leehar, in the original Thread for the ACC I just see "12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans)."

Can you point me in the direction of the correct procedure your reffering to?

Also i realise its in a different cup but you seemed to be of the opposite oppinon in the THOTA vs. TSM match where this came up (see below quote). I'm curious why you see this differently since we also posted all the relevent information as soon as it was requested by AOD. (Unless of course you direct me to this procedure and this is rendered null )

Those games are ok thats risk. BUT

Make bamboo again please , we have no snapshot. Follow the rules.

Not again guys.

Why are you so vehement in asking for game recreation fh?

FoW rule

Fog Rule:

If the second team to join a foggy game also gets the first turn, they must hold their attack for 12 hours or until a member of the opposing team announces that they have taken their snapshot. Should that team accidentally break this agreement, then they will give all relevant information to their opponents in the game chat. eg. territories taken during the first turn, plus the owners of any other territory thrown into the fog as a result of the attack (Note that this does not necessarily include attack information).

The rule can be ignored, if the following conditions are met;

a) No borders are shared by both teams at the start, such as Poland, Feudal, AoR, Woodboro etc.

b) If there is no intent to attack an enemy position, but to only drop, fort and leave, then the turn may be taken.

In short, the turn may be taken, if the enemy will not be losing a territory and are still able to see the map as it was on the original setup.


Once the second team to play, have their snap, they will announce it in the chat, so that the game can commence.

A breach of the rule will NOT result in the game being forfeited, unless; on game completion (when the fog is lifted), it shows that the information given, was incorrect.

It is also good practice (not obligatory), to have any clan member leave a reminder of the rule in the gamechat, once they see the game has started. Plus, for the clan leader to post a reminder on the clan forum.

Also, if the game is part of a tournament (created with privs), “12hr” could be included in the gaming label, eg “Home games, batch 2, 12hr rule applies”.

Com did say: 2011-10-10 10:21:52 - Commander62890: I took Sao Yok and Tamadju. Tennaserim is mine (red).

What else do you need? (unless he didn't tell about other terr. he possibly had surrounding it?)

Okay, according to that logic, we could cede Arms Race to AOD, even though Italiani remedied the situation. Then AOD can cede British Isles (Game 9703297) to us. Both Kenny and Italiani did what I believe to be proper procedure in the course of starting a turn before 12 hours. That rule has been accepted since at least March of this year (when Namor commenced working on an official CLA rule). The situation would therefore remain the same (though odd) and GG wins.

And why should DJ trump up a verdict that opposes the rules - The "Letter of the law"? It is on our side, regardless.

I'm open for remaking all seven of those games, if need be. In fact, if it ends dispute, I encourage it. Maybe we can have them finished within the week. It would relieve a lot of pressure for DJ. We've indubitably placed him into a difficult situation, and I feel sorry for the chap.

If the 12 hr rule is defined in a generic fashion, does that not generally mean that the official CLA rule is the accepted standard?

[kennys777]

The situation would therefore remain the same (though odd) and GG wins.

You would love to believe that poker room is in your column...That's a shame that you are that arrogant, I hope your dice continue to fail as they did this past round so you can take your medicine...

[jpcloet]

If the 12 hr rule is defined in a generic fashion, does that not generally mean that the official CLA rule is the accepted standard?

Again, No, you are jumping to a conclusion.

We should replay poker only. Can you manage to get all players in and not have one deadbeat again, or would you need a replacement player?

[friendly1]

Craziness!

Hey Everyone, I've had a blast with this tourney (and bananas to Icky for his comments, great attitude!!!). There are any number of ways to express an opinion regarding this but maybe we should all take a breath and see what comes down from DJ. It is his tournament, he has set the rules that apply and will interpret the application of the rules. Rules from elsewhere, peoples opinions, possible resolutions are really rather negligible right now.

For GG - you were outside of the tournament rules on joining games, multiple fog rules and there are questions surrounding a deadbeat. Deal with it.

For AOD - you were also outside of the tournament rules on a fog rule, and you have lost the match on points. Deal with it. Also, comments or replies made here need to be polite or not posted! Come on guys...

Either way, DJ will let everyone know what the final decision is. For myself I'll support whatever the outcome and thank DJ for running a really exciting and enjoyable competition. Totally fun event, don't let the small stuff take away from it.

And screw you dice gods!! heh, karma says I'm easy points for the next week after that comment

[Agent 86]

I'm stunned, sort of like being headbutted.

Thanks friendly1 for your wise words and let's let DJ decide where this goes. This has been an exciting format and I would hate it to cause controversy.
The 12hr rule was new to quite a few of our clan members and some mistakes where made, we are now up to speed on this and assure it won't happen again.

Respect for AOD and I'm sorry I took my turn a little early, which has led to this.

86

[General Brock II]

Craziness!

Hey Everyone, I've had a blast with this tourney (and bananas to Icky for his comments, great attitude!!!)....

...

... Either way, DJ will let everyone know what the final decision is. For myself I'll support whatever the outcome and thank DJ for running a really exciting and enjoyable competition. Totally fun event, don't let the small stuff take away from it.

And screw you dice gods!! heh, karma says I'm easy points for the next week after that comment

Hear, hear, thanks to DJ. Splendid post, Friendly. It has been enjoyable. Thanks for the war, AOD.

[Ickyketseddie]

Agreed thanks friendly. You really live up to your username.

To answer the earlier question as papaj is still Mia! we hope he's ok! We are in the process of arranging cover for our team mates but not everyone has come forward yet and we don't force people to surrender their details.

At least we can all agree a war that comes to a single point could easily have tipped in either favour (and still could by the sounds of it) and has been lots of fun!

Let's wait and see what dj says! (love you btw dj ) haha

[murphy16]

Well if I'm not mistaking, if the 1 point does get deducted bringing the score to a tie of 22 all, then we we would go up as we won the tie breaker right?

[Teflon Kris]

12 Hour FOW Rule

• The rule here is indeed not very specific, as pointed-out. I naively expected it to be understood as being in relation to putting the opposition at a knowlege disadvantage.
  
  The CLA interpretation is what was intended (will be clarified to all for next round).
  
  This means
  either:
  
  (a) Wait 12 hours
  
  (b) Declare any attacks on the opposition and all relevant region information for regions 'thrown into the fog'
  
  or:
  (c) Drop and fort or just attack a neutral and fort, thereby leaving an snapshot situation for the opposition after the turn as it would have been before.
  
  However much we debate this, it is hard to see how GG have put AOD at a knowlege disadvantage in games mentionned (they have undertaken option (c)).

Deadbeating

• In spoils games, if a missed-turn or 'time out' appears to have deliberately occurred to gain an advantage, then the opposing team will be automatically awarded a victory for the game in question. In extreme circumstances, an appeal may be considered. Decisions will be at the discretion of the Tournamanet Organisers.

  I will amend this rule to refer to all games, not just spoils games. I cannot legitimately retrospectively amend the rule to apply to the Poker Club (no spoils) game, and, even if this were to happen in a parrallel universe, we then have the big question of determining whether the deadbeating "appears to have deliberately occurred to gain an advantage" or not?

On the two issues above, GG have come close to violating the rules but haven't actually broken them through their mistakes.


In the circumstances it is easy to understand AOD's frustration, given these that the decisive game (will probably have) turned on the deadbeating incident, and involved an FOW courtesy rule question.


This is especially the case when we consider:


Showing up late to games

• DJ ... made very weak allowances for you guys showing up late to games. You did not get penalized in any way previously and still have not.

  Although this is not entirely true, due to the following fact:

  I had to play a 1v1 where you could not win, but I had to win to get the point.

  Due to late show by GG in this 1 v 1 series, I enforced the rules and stated that GG were unable to gain a point by winning.
  
  Penalties that could have been applied for late GG team games would have been as follows:

  If deadlines are not met for creating games then the Tournament Organiser will create random games and randomly assign invites to the relevent clan members (but giving the opposition the time they would normally have been provided with - see above). Failure of clan members to accept invites at this stage (or accept then drop) will result in the game being awarded to the opposition.

  Unltimately the penalty of creating random home GG games etc. would probably have been a less devastating penalty than preventing them winning games etc. (as per other rule violations).

Conclusion

By the letter of the rules, GG can sneak through but AOD have a lot to be pissed off about. They would in fact be triply pissed-off.

The rules created were intended to be tight enough to ensure that replay would not happen as they slow the tournament down for the other 100-200 players involved.

Maybe they weren't tight enough?

In the first post I suggest that the first step in conflicts is to sort it out amongst yourselves.

Along those lines we have the following suggestions above:

I'm open for remaking all seven of those games, if need be. In fact, if it ends dispute, I encourage it. Maybe we can have them finished within the week.

An unlikely scenario unless you play freestyle

We should replay poker only. Can you manage to get all players in and not have one deadbeat again, or would you need a replacement player?

That seems like an agreement between yourselves to me.

From my point of view, the game was made late in the first place, so the following applies:

If deadlines are not met for creating games then the Tournament Organiser will create random games and randomly assign invites to the relevent clan members

So we would Random map Quads with the same teams as the Poker Club game (apart from a possible deadbeat swap). I didn't specify the settings (again, will do for future), they will therefore be: Escalating, Unlimited, Sunny

If we played this game and GG win then they'd be through. If AOD win, then they would either need to also win Game 9718979, or that game would have to enter a 26th round whereby neither clan gains points.

We either go with this proposal, or GG go through, squeaking close to rule breaks and getting away with late starts, and AOD are in a triple pissed-off mood.

[jpcloet]

So we would Random map Quads with the same teams as the Poker Club game (apart from a possible deadbeat swap). I didn't specify the settings (again, will do for future), they will therefore be: Escalating, Unlimited, Sunny

Sounds fair although Unlimited is a very unusual setting. Chained would be much better as that is what most clans including these 2 used.

[Teflon Kris]

Chained it is, by agreement (I kinds thought unlimited might speed it up, but chained will do and may be quicker in some circs I guess).

Let's do this thing.

Game 9899051

[jpcloet]

Game 9899164

[General Brock II]

Right, this looks like the match. Good luck to both sides... but more to the Regiment!

In the spirit of full disclosure, Papaj's replacement will be ranked captain or under (DJ agreed).

[AgentSmith88]

I joined the game, but the poker club game is in no way finished. So does this game replace that one, completely voiding it?

[General Brock II]

This game completely voids it. Poker Club now means nothing.

[Ickyketseddie]

Best of luck the AOD. I hope this puts any feelings of wrong doing behind us!!

I'll be watching intently!!

EDIT: And very well handled by DJ in a very tricky situation.

[kennys777]

I don't know if it was well-handled at all. A regular tournament game is being voided that has not even finished...What sense does that make?

[AgentSmith88]

If the tie-break game (not the remade poker game) hadn't even started yet, I would think both sides would agree that that game could be used to decide the war. However, since it's already finished and we know the outcome nobody even considers it because it seems like handing one team the war.

I know the way we are doing it is in the rules or whatever, just pointing out something I find interesting. (Clearly no matter which side won the tie-break game, the losing team would not agree to having that game decide the outcome)

[jpcloet]

I don't know if it was well-handled at all. A regular tournament game is being voided that has not even finished...What sense does that make?

I would be certainly impressed if you could win Poker now. Make it happen and we can void the remade game lol.