TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

[grifftron]

Man VOL. Its really important to you to push for people elected mods. What if it does happen someday and those mods end up being people that you don't like once again... than what?

They are not going to change the system because 2-3 people don't like the current mods.

-griff

[ViperOverLord]

Man VOL. Its really important to you to push for people elected mods. What if it does happen someday and those mods end up being people that you don't like once again... than what?

They are not going to change the system because 2-3 people don't like the current mods.

-griff

Whatever, dude. I've made no case for voting based upon simply not liking the current mods. Some of us believe that voting creates the fairest system possible. But, I guess I can say that over and over and people like you will still come with your false accusations anyways. And more often than not, these false accusers, such as yourself, are people from certain clans who are all too happy to keep insider politics as the status quo.

[angola]

You think The Pack is apart of insider politics in relation to the CDs? Are you new to the clan scene?

[grifftron]

For the record, I don't know, or talk to any of the current CD's...

So your talking about making false statements... there is no "inside" clan world.. its all in your head bhra.. its a risk gaming site, we come here to play games. If there is by chance, a 5-6 people scene of a so called "insider politics", I don't see how this will effect wars, and it for sure wont effect how your dice roll in a game... time to move on

edit: opps hold on.. i see your in the CDF... THAT WOULD BE THE INSIDE CLAN WORLD... your more inside than me my friend.

-griff

[ViperOverLord]

You think The Pack is apart of insider politics in relation to the CDs? Are you new to the clan scene?

I can't tell you exactly what each and every clan's sway is behind the scenes. But, to me, that's the problem. The system needs to be above board. That CC4 crap was just hours of arguing while the CDs were giving more merit to certain clan's criticisms behind the scenes. That can't happen any more. All clans need to be respected equally and things need to be done above board. And there needs to be a mechanism in place for the clan world to get who they trust and not merely the picks of insiders.

For the record, I don't know, or talk to any of the current CD's...

So your talking about making false statements... there is no "inside" clan world.. its all in your head bhra.. its a risk gaming site, we come here to play games. If there is by chance, a 5-6 people scene of a so called "insider politics", I don't see how this will effect wars, and it for sure wont effect how your dice roll in a game... time to move on

edit: opps hold on.. i see your in the CDF... THAT WOULD BE THE INSIDE CLAN WORLD... your more inside than me my friend.

-griff

CC4 was rife with insider politics and that's well documented, dude. Why do you continue to come at me with your ignorant statements?

[TheMissionary]

Look at the American government. Everyday people are complaining about Congress, the President, Laws, Bills, ect. The people elected these people, and then as soon as it doesn't go their way, the are the first ones to point the finger. The majority rarely takes the time to research their votes. They just expect things to be 'different'. The only way things change is when people come together and address things as a whole. Let your opinion out, and a seed is planted. This doesn't mean it will be in effect over night. Just like a tree, an idea has to grow. As things grow they change, adapt to their surroundings. This site has been around for a while, there is still a lot of growing to do. So I say, instead of lashing out at the imperfections(that will always be there), put forth the effort to change things. Sitting around complaining and lashing out, at a system that does it's best to find a median for everyone, isn't going to solve anything.

[ViperOverLord]

Look at the American government. Everyday people are complaining about Congress, the President, Laws, Bills, ect. The people elected these people, and then as soon as it doesn't go their way, the are the first ones to point the finger. The majority rarely takes the time to research their votes. They just expect things to be 'different'. The only way things change is when people come together and address things as a whole. Let your opinion out, and a seed is planted. This doesn't mean it will be in effect over night. Just like a tree, an idea has to grow. As things grow they change, adapt to their surroundings. This site has been around for a while, there is still a lot of growing to do. So I say, instead of lashing out at the imperfections(that will always be there), put forth the effort to change things. Sitting around complaining and lashing out, at a system that does it's best to find a median for everyone, isn't going to solve anything.

This is a nice flowery speech. But, realistically, it's not an argument for or against elections per se. My view on elections is not that it makes everything better or perfect; merely that it's the right step in the right direction and the first step in truly offering equal sway for each and every clan. CC4 made it clear to me, that insider networks have more power than the clans as a whole.

[TheMissionary]

Look at the American government. Everyday people are complaining about Congress, the President, Laws, Bills, ect. The people elected these people, and then as soon as it doesn't go their way, the are the first ones to point the finger. The majority rarely takes the time to research their votes. They just expect things to be 'different'. The only way things change is when people come together and address things as a whole. Let your opinion out, and a seed is planted. This doesn't mean it will be in effect over night. Just like a tree, an idea has to grow. As things grow they change, adapt to their surroundings. This site has been around for a while, there is still a lot of growing to do. So I say, instead of lashing out at the imperfections(that will always be there), put forth the effort to change things. Sitting around complaining and lashing out, at a system that does it's best to find a median for everyone, isn't going to solve anything.

This is a nice flowery speech. But, realistically, it's not an argument for or against elections per se. My view on elections is not that it makes everything better or perfect; merely that it's the right step in the right direction.

I am not saying I am for, or against elections. I am simply stating that elections do not change things, people do. This isn't a totalitarian system, why fight against it? Everyone's considerations are taken into account. You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

[TheMissionary]

CC4 is a thing of the past, CDs are only human. Isn't the CDF designed to offer equal sway for each and every clan?

[ViperOverLord]

I am not saying I am for, or against elections. I am simply stating that elections do not change things, people do. This isn't a totalitarian system, why fight against it? Everyone's considerations are taken into account. You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.

[grifftron]

VOL bhra... you don't agree with anything anyone says... maybe its you?

just a thought from a friend.

-griff

[ViperOverLord]

CC4 is a thing of the past, CDs are only human. Isn't the CDF designed to offer equal sway for each and every clan?

In theory the CDF was to give us a greater voice. But, then when a vote didn't go the way of the insiders, then it was scrapped. You can think that's a thing of the past; but what changed? If anything, they just learned to be more sly and bypass us if we might be a roadblock to what they want. An election (to say nothing of bylaws) at least creates an overarching accountability that they'll be more desirous to engage the community (and I'm not saying that they don't in a great many instances as it stands).

[TheMissionary]

You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.

This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.

Edit: Maybe it is just a way to give you verification of what you will point your finger at next. Knowing something exists as opposed to assuming, doesn't make any situation easier to resolve.

[ViperOverLord]

VOL bhra... you don't agree with anything anyone says... maybe its you?

just a thought from a friend.

-griff

Who is anyone? The three people who are online chatting right now? Perhaps, I am in the minority. Perhaps, I'm in the silent majority. I fight for what I think is right either way.

[ViperOverLord]

You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.

This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.

Edit: Maybe it is just a way to give you verification of what you will point your finger at next. Knowing something exists as opposed to assuming, doesn't make any situation easier to resolve..

I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

As for finger pointing; I really don't know what you're talking about. I've largely argued for a fairer system and minimized talk regarding individuals. Nor do I know what this even refers to: "Knowing something exists as opposed to assuming, doesn't make any situation easier to resolve."

[TheMissionary]

You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.

This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.

Why would you assume that whoever is delegated and whoever is elected would be of the same caliber? And frankly, even if they are the same, better, or worse; at least the clans get their equal say. That's all I can rightfully ask for in anything. Personally, though, I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate.

I believe that just killed your own argument. You are taking the margins of performance away from people who are trying to volunteer, for an elected group who may, or may not have, the same dedication to providing a solid effort to the community.

Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?

[ViperOverLord]

You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time.

If you setup the system to be as fair as possible from the outset; then the inevitable problems are minimized later. Systems without proper rigors are destined for chaos. So, frankly, I find your well intentioned rhetoric to be apathetic and misguided.

This is what this debate is over isn't it? We have a handful of people, within the masses, who feel they are discriminated against by a so called "inner circle". Therefore they want an election of 'power' (which in reality is delegated to volunteers), to be distributed to people who could potentially be of the same resolve. Makes sense to you I guess, but I'm not sure I can understand your logic.

Why would you assume that whoever is delegated and whoever is elected would be of the same caliber? And frankly, even if they are the same, better, or worse; at least the clans get their equal say. That's all I can rightfully ask for in anything. Personally, though, I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate.

I believe that just killed your own argument. You are taking the margins of performance away from people who are trying to volunteer, for an elected group who may, or may not have, the same dedication to providing a solid effort to the community.

Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?

I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."

And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.

"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.

[TheMissionary]

I've killed nothing. You tried to give a hypothetical of an elected volunteer doing worse than an appointed volunteer. And I really don't get your point. I believe that the clan leaders are more than capable of selecting adequate CDs. Hence, my point that there's no need to focus upon the "margins."

And whether elected or appointed, CDs will still be volunteers. Elected CDs will not have less dedication. And if they're bad, then that's the beauty of the system. We can replace them. If a CD is bad now, we have no such recourse.

"Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU DRUNK? An appointed person gives up their time willingly. An elected person gives up their time willingly. You keep going off the rails like that. So, time for me to take a break.

Elected people are usually nominated. If we can't get rid of the CDs now, what makes you so sure that we would be able to get rid of elected CDs? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of your process? Basically what killed your argument, is the fact that you are willing to take an opportunity from a new set of volunteers, and place that in the hands of elected/nominated people.

As for being drunk, I have been up for almost 24 hours. Does that make you wonder, how I can still see the fallacies you bring to your arguments?

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein

[greenoaks]

I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.

[TheMissionary]

I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.

I think he knows this, as it has been rebutted in every argument he makes. It's beginning to sound like a broken record.

[greenoaks]

I think it's a mistake to minimize this debate to a matter of margins on the performance of potential CDs. The community as a whole that gets to vote for who represents them on important matters, gets respect out of the gate and that sets a proper tone.

Clans already get to vote on who represents them. thats the CDF.

CC gets to choose who represents them & they have delegated that role to the current CD leader.

I think he knows this, as it has been rebutted in every argument he makes. It's beginning to sound like a broken record.

he's being saying clans should be able to elect someone to represent them. i just thought i better point out the obvious that they already do.

[BoganGod]

VOL have you considered that every person that posts here that does not agree with you may well be agents of the illuminati?

Seriously......

You have waffled, repeated yourself and disagreed with all comers. Been fun I'm sure.

Could you please address my concern about universal voting. If not everyone votes, then the vote is not representative of the community, it is only representative of those that vote. Those that vote will be those that are more involved in the "political" forum side of CC, and are more likely to have had conflict and personality issues with others due to their interest in social discourse and championing ideas rather than playing games(supposedly what we are all here for).

I'm not sure whether your aware that Australia has a compulsory voting system. All those that are registered to vote(citizens over the age of 18) must vote or they are fined. I and many others have ethical concerns about forced democracy. However it does make the work of pollsters a lot easier as pretty much every person they talk to will be voting. A majority government is elected by a majority of the people. Not like the american system when a government and head of state are elected by the majority of voters, which are not anywhere near the majority of the people. Apathy is a choice that americans are allowed to exercise and Australians are denied.

Am going out on a limb here and crediting you with the intelligience to assimilate the facts and ideas I've presented above.

So back to my question(I've asked this twice before in this thread) VOL how is voting representative of the collective will of clan members, if voting is not compulsory?

[Leehar]

instead of an elite group of people

I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?

Instead of digging in the dirt, which is what you presumably want to do with this question; how about you actually give your position on elections?

I think that what Viper may have been referencing was the presumed fact that a lot of CD's have come from higher ranked clans.

I remember this being discussed in some other thread previously. Some people might want a little CD love from the lower ranked clans.

Well stated. I was thinking of addressing it from the point of view that none of the current cd's are in top 5 clans (With ace unranked, osa 9th & legion 25th, or coaches poll 10th/12th/unranked respectively) but your perspective was a trifle different. Although I did think it may have been somewhat weighted with a reference on masli, but non on jpcloet/alt1978/shaneback as other previous cd's that were also not up there.
However, I think the point I really wanted to address was the fashion in which he was throwing about aspersions like 'elitist' & 'inner circle' when referencing the CD. I was hoping to perhaps tackle any misapprehensions he may have been under in perhaps somehow assuming great conspiracies exist when nothing could be further from the truth.


Nonetheless, it was something I deliberately sought to encourage with the most recent callout, to have a frank look at prospective candidates from new & lower ranked clans. Unfortunately, such a search is also hindered by the fact that they don't always have the skills & experience of the clan world to ably assist. So while it is important to increase our independence & build confidence from amongst clans & other stakeholders, I also think that the CD's are also here to perform a bureaucratic role in performing our roles & responsibilities.
That being said, I think quite a few candidates who fulfill those requirements made our shortlist, and were viable prospects to meet our needs.


Anyway, I'll be opening a discussion in CDF on this topic, as Vipers vigorous campaigning has not gone unheard!

[Masli]

However, when I joined the cd team, kort wasn't a top 5 clan...

[VioIet]

Edit: Is someone appointed to a position really going to put in as much effort per-say, as a person who is willing to give up their own time willingly?

I completely see your point here. But that's why in the scenarios/examples that I gave, someone would have to accept the nomination and be interviewed to say why they want the job and how they hope to improve things or make things run smooth, and so forth. They'd have to really want the huge responsibilities of the position.

I think the only way some type of voting system would take place is if the majority of people here were adamant about it.

I remember about two years ago, people were really upset about peantusdad (who I think was an outstanding leader, btw) being appointed instead of nominated in. I don't know all the details, so please excuse my ignorance on the subject matter. I don't even know for sure what position it was, I just remember many people saying that there should have been a voting process. I was extremely new to the clan scene at the time, and I didn't follow it closely. I just remember there being a lot of uproar about it, and after enough time, someone did step up and make a voting poll of some sort. Interestingly, I think people voted in peanutsdad anyway. In fact, I think it was unanimous. I think people were just more concerned with having some sort of say in things, maybe more so than who was in that position.

Once he had to step down, a long time later, we all voted/nominated again, but as time went on, the idea seem to fade away. I've never heard it mentioned again since then.

But the reason I brought that up is that when you have enough people who strongly feel a certain way and want to take action, them something will be done. Numbers bring power.

Viper, if we're the only two people (posting) who feel that some type of voting system would be more fair, then, well, I don't think we're going to get very far.

I think it's fantastic that you always want to stand up for what you believe in and for what you feel is right. I am the exact same way, so I COMPLETELY understand how you feel. Believe me, I do. But sometimes it's also best to know when we've been.....oh I don't want to use the word "defeated," but basically, something like that. But if most are happy with the way it is now, then we just have to let it be.

It's a good skill to know when to keep fighting a battle and when to just hang it up. Or not necessarily hang it up, but maybe try to figure a different way to go about it.

I mean, I think a voting system sounds perfectly reasonable. But if many people don't feel that way, then oh well, I guess.