One more reason to carry

[black elk speaks]

that's hardly a fair comparison.

[Dancing Mustard]

It's only marginally more absurd than some of the "But what about in situation X, wouldn't you want to have a gun then" scenarios I've heard from pro-gunners... and at least he's got a point.

[black elk speaks]

It's only marginally more absurd than some of the "But what about in situation X, wouldn't you want to have a gun then" scenarios I've heard from pro-gunners... and at least he's got a point.

infecting everyone with Ebola is nothing like putting a gun in everyone's hands. not even a little bit. Surely, an individual has to know him/her self prior to owning a gun, the onus of responsible gun ownership falls on the carrier, make no mistake. the situations that one may find him/her self in that may resolve in the use of deadly force will always bear the burden of heavy scrutiny. it is up to the individual to know if life threatening harm is eminent. but I do not think that anyone has the right to take away my right to defend myself in the face of any such situation. The problem is not the weaponry, but the society. if you want to suggest that your society, with a lower crime rate and less likelihood to have its citizens commit murderous crimes, then you can carry this debate to a new thread. having someone beat another human being nearly to death on the subway actually is another good reason to carry. had that been you, you would also likely wish to discourage your assailant with a gun. I now that I would. and I do.

[Snorri1234]

Here's my big question...

How would you Europeans react if you were walking through the hood and heard the gunfire start spitting?

Would you freak out? Most middle Americans would. I certainly did the first time. But you learn to recognize the caliber of the weapons involved, and whether or not it's moving towards you. I still get a bit worried when I hear an automatic, or the fire getting spat out of a moving vehicle. Cause otherwise I can usually avoid it easily. But when it's a drive by, or a chopper, all bets are off.

Are we American city boys just tougher than the majority of Europeans (or Americans from areas without this kind of strife)? And by that, I mean those of us American city boys that DON'T carry a heater, the ones be strapped be pussy, for real.

Yeah I'd be pretty freaked out, but that's because I have never heard gunfire over here. I have walked plenty of dark nights through Amsterdam, but gunfire? Nope.

"Amsterdam is the second most criminal town in the Netherlands. Nonetheless, the capital is the most attractive city in the Netherlands to live in, according to the Atlas for Municipalities presented earlier last Thursday."

"Much crime in Amsterdam is of a different nature, though. In recent years, a revenge-war amongst top criminals has resulted in a number of assassinations — with hits often taking place in public."

- source http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/162-amsterdam-livability

Maybe those people are being stabbed?

Ooh, I really give a shit about a bunch of criminals getting shot.

[black elk speaks]

Here's my big question...

How would you Europeans react if you were walking through the hood and heard the gunfire start spitting?

Would you freak out? Most middle Americans would. I certainly did the first time. But you learn to recognize the caliber of the weapons involved, and whether or not it's moving towards you. I still get a bit worried when I hear an automatic, or the fire getting spat out of a moving vehicle. Cause otherwise I can usually avoid it easily. But when it's a drive by, or a chopper, all bets are off.

Are we American city boys just tougher than the majority of Europeans (or Americans from areas without this kind of strife)? And by that, I mean those of us American city boys that DON'T carry a heater, the ones be strapped be pussy, for real.

Yeah I'd be pretty freaked out, but that's because I have never heard gunfire over here. I have walked plenty of dark nights through Amsterdam, but gunfire? Nope.

"Amsterdam is the second most criminal town in the Netherlands. Nonetheless, the capital is the most attractive city in the Netherlands to live in, according to the Atlas for Municipalities presented earlier last Thursday."

"Much crime in Amsterdam is of a different nature, though. In recent years, a revenge-war amongst top criminals has resulted in a number of assassinations — with hits often taking place in public."

- source http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/162-amsterdam-livability

Maybe those people are being stabbed?

Ooh, I really give a shit about a bunch of criminals getting shot.

good answer. so what you are saying then is that there are guns in your country and people actually are being shot with them. Do tell, what are the muggings like there? are the criminals likely to use guns then?

[pimpdave]

good answer. so what you are saying then is that there are guns in your country and people actually are being shot with them. Do tell, what are the muggings like there? are the criminals likely to use guns then?

You're more likely to be seriously hurt during a mugging if you're strapped than not. There are numerous reasons for this, and even MORE ways to escape a mugging with no harm to you.

Ask anyone who has lived in a major American city long enough. We've all been mugged, we all know how to handle it, and we all know that you're more likely to be shot if you draw down on them. Furthermore, most of the times the guns being used by a mugger are not loaded, and if they are, the mugger doesn't want to use the gun, it's a prop to get you to do what they want.

[THORNHEART]

i would have trashed him dude ...he would find out how a hammer goes up against an assualt knife and martial arts combined

[comic boy]

good answer. so what you are saying then is that there are guns in your country and people actually are being shot with them. Do tell, what are the muggings like there? are the criminals likely to use guns then?

You're more likely to be seriously hurt during a mugging if you're strapped than not. There are numerous reasons for this, and even MORE ways to escape a mugging with no harm to you.

Ask anyone who has lived in a major American city long enough. We've all been mugged, we all know how to handle it, and we all know that you're more likely to be shot if you draw down on them. Furthermore, most of the times the guns being used by a mugger are not loaded, and if they are, the mugger doesn't want to use the gun, it's a prop to get you to do what they want.

Excellent post
The idea that more guns reduces crime is insane, it simply escalates situations and as you say can turn a robbery into a murder.

[black elk speaks]

i would have trashed him dude ...he would find out how a hammer goes up against an assualt knife and martial arts combined

I like this guy. My method is this, first, attempt to use reason. "I will not give you shit, your best course of action is to go away, and save yourself a serious ass beating"

If that doesn't work, issue an ass beating by convincing him to give me his arm and snapping it in either the elbow joint or the shoulder.

once it becomes apparent that I can't accomplish this, draw the ass hole down.

if he still continues to be a dick, shoot him in the nutz. its pretty simple really. The rest of you just don't know how to carry, and i guess that you shouldn't. It sure doesn't mean that you should tell me that I shouldn't.

[pimpdave]

I like this guy. My method is this, first, attempt to use reason. "I will not give you shit, your best course of action is to go away, and save yourself a serious ass beating"

It sure doesn't mean that you should tell me that I shouldn't.

You've never been mugged, have you?

[black elk speaks]

I like this guy. My method is this, first, attempt to use reason. "I will not give you shit, your best course of action is to go away, and save yourself a serious ass beating"

It sure doesn't mean that you should tell me that I shouldn't.

You've never been mugged, have you?

I have been attacked by multiple assailants in a mob like attack. You?

I had no weapon at the time and had to rely on the fact that none of them knew how to fight. I came out on top. That count?

[bedub1]

What if all 10 spectators had a gun, and knew had to use it, and was willing to use it to defend the man that was being attacked? Would the man have even attacked the other man to begin with?

[Frigidus]

What if all 10 spectators had a gun, and knew had to use it, and was willing to use it to defend the man that was being attacked? Would the man have even attacked the other man to begin with?

We can set up pins and knock them down all day, but when it comes down to it I wouldn't trust the majority of people with a gun. If you just giving everyone guns and start shooting at criminals in the streets there's going to be a lot of collateral damage. I mean, its not like your average person is a deadeye. Hell, they're probably grossly irresponsible. Plus, if concealed weapons were common criminals would be more likely to shoot bystanders to cover their own ass. There's just too many problems to get past.

[black elk speaks]

I like this guy. My method is this, first, attempt to use reason. "I will not give you shit, your best course of action is to go away, and save yourself a serious ass beating"

It sure doesn't mean that you should tell me that I shouldn't.

You've never been mugged, have you?

there was also another time that a driver cut me off. I flipped him off and he (and passenger) followed me off at the next exit. I made reasonable efforts to loose him, parking in a lot for a few minutes to avoid confrontation. I thought that the coast was clear, but when i got back on the road, there he was. I pulled over and he and his buddy got out and were encircling me as if to attack. I simply lifted my shirt enough to expose my firearm, then I calmly suggested that he and his friend get back in their car. He started crying about my pulling a gun on him, and I said that he probably shouldn't have been so menacing. Does that count too?

[black elk speaks]

Plus, if concealed weapons were common criminals would be more likely to shoot bystanders to cover their own ass. There's just too many problems to get past.

I don't think you have any basis to support that claim.

I don't think that everyone should carry a gun. you have to know yourself. I tryst myself with a gun. its obvious that you dont, and so you probably shouldn't own one. In my state, to carry a concealed firearm, you have to take a gun safety course. you learn a lot from one of those. it might even discourage you from wanting to carry.

[Dancing Mustard]

i would have trashed him dude ...he would find out how a hammer goes up against an assualt knife and martial arts combined

Yeah!!! I would totally have opened a can of whupass on that dude! Look at my biceps!! Let's all touch muscles and talk about fighting technique!!! I am totally a fucking mega badass in reality with a PENIS LIKE AN ANACONDA that would choke muggers from their anus up!!! I met Van Damme in a bar once and I was like "two seconds till", and he was like "two seconds till what?", and then I kicked him in the face with a motherfucking foot made out of assault knives and turned him into an omlette!!! Hell yeah!!! Let's get naked in the showers and slap each other ON THE BUTT!!! Go team! I am so fucking hardcore and musclebound and down with the ways of the ancient ninja that it hurts me!!! Who am I? I'm the motherfucking Batman!!! Huttah!!!



No but seriously; you are a one-man answer to America's violent crime problem. We all wish that we were just like you, and we are all totally impressed by your idle internet-based hardman posturing.

[FabledIntegral]

I believe I'm the only one that wouldn't have done something - not because I wouldn't think I could overpower him with some other people but I'd fear it would be a hit for some reason by a hired guy. Lots of shit goes racing through your head at that moment. Of course - if you know the guy is a solo nut it's a different situation. But when it's happening, too many possibilities to jump in.

[Snorri1234]

good answer. so what you are saying then is that there are guns in your country and people actually are being shot with them. Do tell, what are the muggings like there? are the criminals likely to use guns then?

Nope. The most common thing muggers use is a knife. Most criminals don't have a gun, it's only the organised crime-peeps who have one and they use them to deal with other criminals.

[black elk speaks]

I believe I'm the only one that wouldn't have done something - not because I wouldn't think I could overpower him with some other people but I'd fear it would be a hit for some reason by a hired guy. Lots of shit goes racing through your head at that moment. Of course - if you know the guy is a solo nut it's a different situation. But when it's happening, too many possibilities to jump in.

organized crime hits would usually occur discretely, no witnesses and such.

Nope. The most common thing muggers use is a knife. Most criminals don't have a gun, it's only the organised crime-peeps who have one and they use them to deal with other criminals.

then i think that people should be allowed to carry. it sounds to me that your people are victims to be preyed upon by knife wielding thugs.

[Snorri1234]

organized crime hits would usually occur discretely, no witnesses and such.

Don't be silly. Discreet hits don't inspire fear in others that much, so once in a while you need a public hit.

then i think that people should be allowed to carry. it sounds to me that your people are victims to be preyed upon by knife wielding thugs.

I prefer that to being preyed upon by gun-wielding thugs.

[black elk speaks]

organized crime hits would usually occur discretely, no witnesses and such.

Don't be silly. Discreet hits don't inspire fear in others that much, so once in a while you need a public hit.

then i think that people should be allowed to carry. it sounds to me that your people are victims to be preyed upon by knife wielding thugs.

I prefer that to being preyed upon by gun-wielding thugs.

I have never been stabbed, but a knife, so I am told, is as deadly as a gun.

[Snorri1234]

organized crime hits would usually occur discretely, no witnesses and such.

Don't be silly. Discreet hits don't inspire fear in others that much, so once in a while you need a public hit.

then i think that people should be allowed to carry. it sounds to me that your people are victims to be preyed upon by knife wielding thugs.

I prefer that to being preyed upon by gun-wielding thugs.

I have never been stabbed, but a knife, so I am told, is as deadly as a gun.

Indeed, especially when the person wielding it is 20 feet away.


DAMN DUDE! How can you even say that? Knives are dangerous, sure, but guns are sooo much more deadly! The destructive impact of a bullet, especially the ones we have now, is far greater than it's size makes you think.

[deepsouth]

that's what's wrong with america; you think that people carrying guns would help sort out crime. i think the carriage full of people who stood by and did nothing would have been more than capable of stopping the attack without using a gun, but they didn't. i doubt arming them all would have made them overcome their fear and step in. i'm also happy to bet that at least one of the DID have a gun and just didn't use it.

also, just imagine you were one of those people who stood by and did nothing, and you had a gun. would you really just whip it out and shoot that guy? i know he was attacking someone, but ending a human life isn't exactly an easy thing to do. most likely he would see you had the gun out, take it from you and you would get shot instead. well done.

[black elk speaks]

that's what's wrong with america; you think that people carrying guns would help sort out crime. i think the carriage full of people who stood by and did nothing would have been more than capable of stopping the attack without using a gun, but they didn't. i doubt arming them all would have made them overcome their fear and step in. i'm also happy to bet that at least one of the DID have a gun and just didn't use it.

also, just imagine you were one of those people who stood by and did nothing, and you had a gun. would you really just whip it out and shoot that guy? i know he was attacking someone, but ending a human life isn't exactly an easy thing to do. most likely he would see you had the gun out, take it from you and you would get shot instead. well done.

I think you miss the point. Had I been on the train, i would have intervened without my gun first as hammer time did not have a gun. the first line of defense is a stern voice. then, if he had turned to engage, it would have been likely that others would have helped, but if they had not, the next line of defense would have been for me to attempt to disarm and subdue him. I have some training in that, so I would have relied on it. had that proven futile, I would have attempted to lure the guy away where I could have a chance of drawing him down. if he would not have surrendered to the sight of my weapon, I would have disabled him by shooting him in the leg. in my pistol, I carry 2 FMJ (Full metal jacket, not hollow points) rounds, one in the chamber and one in the magazine. after that they are all hollow point. FMJ rounds do not split when they enter the intended target, rather they stay fully intact and only make a hole. hollow point rounds separate and fan out, causing increased bleeding and more likely to kill. If the first and second shot would not discourage him from continuing the attack, the third would take his life.

I think that a gun safety course is appropriate for lawful gun owners. in my course, the trainer suggested that I take up a hand to hand self defense class, and that should be the first line of defense. the gun should only be used if all other options are exhausted. everyone should be made to know these things prior to gun ownership but the right to owning a gun should not be infringed upon.

[deepsouth]

i think the far greater issue isn't guns at all, it's that the majority of people did not step in like you say you would. whilst they may have some excuse for not stopping the attack whilst it was in progress, in that they were afraid, not even helping him once the attacker had left is inexcusable. a bit of social responsibility would go a lot further than arming everyone, which would probably just drive people further apart.

coming from a country where carrying guns is illegal, i would pretty firmly support the idea that you don't need a gun to protect yourself/others.