PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[AndyDufresne]

King Herpes, Whitestazn88, lets keep on topic. Thanks for your contributing post, hwhrhett (find below in spoiler also).

To put my post on this page for discussion:

My post

My how this topic has grown over 24 hours! Lets try to keep from going in circles, and lets work towards an end:

So lets see if we can get to the main issues, or issues purported, of both sides within these pages:

• Bigotry is more prevalent in CC than thought---a large portion occurs in Game Chats and PM, though some also occurrs in the Forums (I'm assumingly mostly GD, Off Topics, and Usergroups).
• Bigotry is ineffectively or inconsistently dealt with. I.E. Team CC does this, and/or Conquer Club in general does not offer enough tools (like the Foe List, Reporting Posts) to add to a user's arsenal to combat such issues.
• Bigotry should be punished more severely than other "No-No's" from the Community Guidelines.
  
  
  As for the otherside:
• Bigotry is being used by individuals to troll/spam/cause general chaos for fun.
• Bigotry is dealt with when reported.

I think that covers the majority of the points within these pages---if I've missed something please feel free to bring it to my attention.

=======================================================

Okay, so we know the general two sides of the issue. Now where's the middle ground?

Due to the sensitive nature of Bigotry on a user, group of users, or Community in general (as opposed to say simply someone spamming throughout the forum), would the Community be happier with an increased punishment scale for Bigotry? Currently it follows the routine of all Community Guidelines: Warning, Small Vacation, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation.

Would something like: Warning (we will most always have a warning before any punishment it given), Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation.

Would this increased punishment scale not only help curb Bigotry, but increase overall user and community happiness? Would it at least be a first step in the right direction?

===============================================================

Currently, as you all know, the Conquer Club offers the Foe List as a means for users to block out material they find offensive/annoying/etc. Additionally, also built within the forum software is the Report a Post Feature to notify Team CC of specific posts made by a user or users that one believes to be against the Community Guidelines.

Is there some additional tool that we could add to the arsenal of Community Members that would increase the overall happiness of the user and Community at large? Any ideas?

=================================================================

So please, lets get some discussion going on the above proposed solution steps. As I mentioned earlier, lets work towards an end, instead of circling our wagons ad nauseum.


--Andy, Your Friendly-Banana-Loving-Chief Moderator

hwhrhett post

perhaps a clickie in-game to report in-gamechat racism or abuse.......

possibly same thing for chat?

but my personal opinion is that cc does do enough, and that anyone that claims that cc is a racist community is obviously not familiar with chat rooms or forums on the internet... there will always be trolls, kids will always drop the n-bomb to get a rise out of people...

Bruceswar posts

Racism on CC should be 1 strike and you are done. People know what it is, and people know how not to use it. It is that simple.

It is 2009 Racism shall not stand at all. 1 and done for me, maybe a long vacation say 3 months, then gone forever.

owenator post

There's a fine line what could be pertained as racism. It's easy to make a mistake like anything else. However, when it's more than obvious, where someone calls another or states something that is blatantly racist, I think that a small vacation should be initially imposed. Repeat offenders (second strike), should receive a longer vacation, and upon a third repeated offence, that person should be permanently banned.

owen

whitestazn88 post

andy is the greatest chief moderator CC has ever seen!

i appreciate what you are proposing, but in the guidelines, bigotry is apparently the one thing that is supposed to have a harsh punishment, as you state that there is no circumstance for it. it should go ban, longer ban, perma ban

xxtig12683xx post

There should be no warnings, should not be tolerated...vacation for the first offense, permanent for the second.


-tig

Heart of Space post

This discussion should not just be limited to racism. Antisemitism and homophobia are every bit as hurtful, senseless, and morally bankrupt as racism, and should carry the same penalties. I would also include sexism in this discussion, but it appears to me that the clientele of this site is so overwhelmingly male-dominated that such efforts would almost certainly be fruitless.

In any case, in my view, there are two ways racism/homophobia/antisemitism can manifest themselves in an online forum. First, there is the use of certain hurtful keywords. Like Bruce says, everyone knows which words constitute such disgusting bile, and the first use of said epithets should result in either a long vacation or a ban. Period. There is no excuse for such language, no redeeming qualities, and no way to soften their impact. Attempting to justify a lighter punishment for this sort of abuse is tantamount to condoning it.

The second way racism can manifest itself is in the repeated use of hurtful stereotypes. This is a much harder to spot and much more nuanced issue. There is a ton of gray area here, and CC should treat it much more lightly and on a case by case basis. Really, the threshold for severe action here should be pretty high.

In summary, whenever one of the magic words is used, CC should drop the hammer. Using a lighter or ladder-like approach is just hypocritical. These words are just as bad the first time they are used as they are the third time.

Regards,

Heart of Space

squishyg post

I say a one week vacation for the first offense so everyone knows cc means business and a permanent vacation thereafter.

Please, please, please, include include sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-antisemitism, and ageism in your definition of bigotry.

General Stoneham post

Outright ban or banning with-out warnings is obscene. We do have times where the discussion gets heated and people will post things, that normally won't in non-heated debate.

--Andy

[Bruceswar]

Racism on CC should be 1 strike and you are done. People know what it is, and people know how not to use it. It is that simple.

[AndyDufresne]

So Bruce, you would be happier with an increased punishment severity policy, similar to, or greater than, the one proposed?


--Andy

[owenator]

There's a fine line what could be pertained as racism. It's easy to make a mistake like anything else. However, when it's more than obvious, where someone calls another or states something that is blatantly racist, I think that a small vacation should be initially imposed. Repeat offenders (second strike), should receive a longer vacation, and upon a third repeated offence, that person should be permanently banned.

owen

[whitestazn88]

andy is the greatest chief moderator CC has ever seen!

i appreciate what you are proposing, but in the guidelines, bigotry is apparently the one thing that is supposed to have a harsh punishment, as you state that there is no circumstance for it. it should go ban, longer ban, perma ban

[AndyDufresne]

So far, the general trend seems to be increased punishment severity. Note my post at the top of this page, I'm including posts on topic and contributing to the discussion, for easy reference to all those reading this topic.


--Andy

[xxtig12683xx]

There should be no warnings, should not be tolerated...vacation for the first offense, permanent for the second.


-tig

[e_i_pi]

I did a comprehensive search and I can find nowhere that explains the term "nshooter" as being racist, owenshooter. Therefore, I don't believe you.

Guess I can start calling certain people "nhaters" then...

[AndyDufresne]

e_i_pi, please remain on topic.

Thanks for your post, xxtig12683xx.


--Andy

[xxtig12683xx]

e_i_pi, please remain on topic.

Thanks for your post, xxtig12683xx.


--Andy

Yea, no problems, I could see using that language in flame wars, even though I dont agree with it there either, but it was a cage match forum where anything went. What got me was when OP said that "Nshooter" was not a blatant stab at Owen, I mean come on he cut off his first 3 letter


-tig

[Bruceswar]

So Bruce, you would be happier with an increased punishment severity policy, similar to, or greater than, the one proposed?


--Andy

It is 2009 Racism shall not stand at all. 1 and done for me, maybe a long vacation say 3 months, then gone forever.

[AndyDufresne]

Thanks for your post, Bruce, I've added it for easy reference in my top post for those following the topic.


--Andy

[Heart of Space]

This discussion should not just be limited to racism. Antisemitism and homophobia are every bit as hurtful, senseless, and morally bankrupt as racism, and should carry the same penalties. I would also include sexism in this discussion, but it appears to me that the clientele of this site is so overwhelmingly male-dominated that such efforts would almost certainly be fruitless.

In any case, in my view, there are two ways racism/homophobia/antisemitism can manifest themselves in an online forum. First, there is the use of certain hurtful keywords. Like Bruce says, everyone knows which words constitute such disgusting bile, and the first use of said epithets should result in either a long vacation or a ban. Period. There is no excuse for such language, no redeeming qualities, and no way to soften their impact. Attempting to justify a lighter punishment for this sort of abuse is tantamount to condoning it.

The second way racism can manifest itself is in the repeated use of hurtful stereotypes. This is a much harder to spot and much more nuanced issue. There is a ton of gray area here, and CC should treat it much more lightly and on a case by case basis. Really, the threshold for severe action here should be pretty high.

In summary, whenever one of the magic words is used, CC should drop the hammer. Using a lighter or ladder-like approach is just hypocritical. These words are just as bad the first time they are used as they are the third time.

Regards,

Heart of Space

[squishyg]

I say a one week vacation for the first offense so everyone knows cc means business and a permanent vacation thereafter.

Please, please, please, include include sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-antisemitism, and ageism in your definition of bigotry.

[AndyDufresne]

Just to be clear, I've changed this topic title to "Bigotry" instead of just racism---so everyone knows we are discussing Bigotry at large---which you can find definitions of in the Community Guidelines already in place.

Thanks for both your posts, Heart of Space and squishyg, added them to my post at the top.


--Andy

[squishyg]

This discussion should not just be limited to racism. Antisemitism and homophobia are every bit as hurtful, senseless, and morally bankrupt as racism, and should carry the same penalties. I would also include sexism in this discussion, but it appears to me that the clientele of this site is so overwhelmingly male-dominated that such efforts would almost certainly be fruitless.

In any case, in my view, there are two ways racism/homophobia/antisemitism can manifest themselves in an online forum. First, there is the use of certain hurtful keywords. Like Bruce says, everyone knows which words constitute such disgusting bile, and the first use of said epithets should result in either a long vacation or a ban. Period. There is no excuse for such language, no redeeming qualities, and no way to soften their impact. Attempting to justify a lighter punishment for this sort of abuse is tantamount to condoning it.

The second way racism can manifest itself is in the repeated use of hurtful stereotypes. This is a much harder to spot and much more nuanced issue. There is a ton of gray area here, and CC should treat it much more lightly and on a case by case basis. Really, the threshold for severe action here should be pretty high.

In summary, whenever one of the magic words is used, CC should drop the hammer. Using a lighter or ladder-like approach is just hypocritical. These words are just as bad the first time they are used as they are the third time.

Regards,

Heart of Space

I completely agree, with the exception that just because women are a minority on this site, does not mean cc should not protect them from ridicule and sexism. After all, these rules are in place to protect people in the minority, as women on cc certainly are.

[Kotaro]

No tolerance policy, the best policy. I mean, Hitler had the same policy, that worked out for the better, right?

f*ck no tolerance. There is always tolerance, or there is a fail business.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

This discussion should not just be limited to racism. Antisemitism and homophobia are every bit as hurtful, senseless, and morally bankrupt as racism, and should carry the same penalties. I would also include sexism in this discussion, but it appears to me that the clientele of this site is so overwhelmingly male-dominated that such efforts would almost certainly be fruitless.

In any case, in my view, there are two ways racism/homophobia/antisemitism can manifest themselves in an online forum. First, there is the use of certain hurtful keywords. Like Bruce says, everyone knows which words constitute such disgusting bile, and the first use of said epithets should result in either a long vacation or a ban. Period. There is no excuse for such language, no redeeming qualities, and no way to soften their impact. Attempting to justify a lighter punishment for this sort of abuse is tantamount to condoning it.

The second way racism can manifest itself is in the repeated use of hurtful stereotypes. This is a much harder to spot and much more nuanced issue. There is a ton of gray area here, and CC should treat it much more lightly and on a case by case basis. Really, the threshold for severe action here should be pretty high.

In summary, whenever one of the magic words is used, CC should drop the hammer. Using a lighter or ladder-like approach is just hypocritical. These words are just as bad the first time they are used as they are the third time.

Regards,

Heart of Space

Outright ban or banning with-out warnings is obscene. We do have times where the discussion gets heated and people will post things, that normally won't in non-heated debate.

[AndyDufresne]

Thanks for your post, General Stoneham. I've added it to my list of respones on the top of last page.


--Andy

[squishyg]

Outright ban or banning with-out warnings is obscene. We do have times where the discussion gets heated and people will post things, that normally won't in non-heated debate.

Very true, a warning is definitely called for, but I would say in the form of a one week vacation. It's not okay to say something bigoted just because you're mad at someone.

[owenshooter]

off the top of my head, this was the first thing i thought of:

1. combined warning w/3 day vacation
2. one week vacation for second offense w/ final warning
3. perma-ban

however, since game chat and live chat will still be accessible to anyone that has been perma-banned due to bigotry. if they continue with the negative activity, they should go the way of a member that is guilty of point dumping or multi-creation. suspension from the site. i applaud andy for stepping up and taking this conversation seriously. he has already proven that lack made the correct choice in moving him into his current uber-banana position.-0

[xelabale]

I 100% agree that all forms of bigotry are wrong - racism, sexism, etc. It's all categorically wrong.

But how does one police it? You can't just monitor for keywords, there is context. A coloured person may choose to call his friend a nigger for example. And where is the line? 0 tolerance is all very well but it isn't practical If I call someone an idiotic yank is that bigotry, am I to be banned for 1 week? How do you draw a line in such a quagmire?

One solution could be to find an organisation that we would expect to have a good policy and adopt theirs - the UN for example. They must have thought through this issue much more thoroughly than we ever would have the time for, and we would/should all agree that their policy would be balanced and fair.

[JoshyBoy]

I dunno

We're all going to die so who cares...

[owenator]

off the top of my head, this was the first thing i thought of:

1. combined warning w/3 day vacation
2. one week vacation for second offense w/ final warning
3. perma-ban

however, since game chat and live chat will still be accessible to anyone that has been perma-banned due to bigotry. if they continue with the negative activity, they should go the way of a member that is guilty of point dumping or multi-creation. suspension from the site. i applaud andy for stepping up and taking this conversation seriously. he has already proven that lack made the correct choice in moving him into his current uber-banana position.-0

I agree with what my multi says. No seriously, what a great suggestion. It provides a '3-strike' system giving time for someone not only a chance, but perhaps the opportunity to reform. Kot's stance is his own and if it were real life, there certainly would be less tolerance. I believe there should be zero tolerance, but we all make mistakes and if someone is willing to own up and change, then that's the chance they should be given. Additionally, I'd like to also thank Andy for not only taking immediate action, but showing how to provide an opportunity to resolve an issue. Good work Andy!!

[owenshooter]

But how does one police it?

there is this wonderful forum called C&A where people go to post evidence of people breaking the rules of CC. if you ever visit that forum, you will see people reporting bigotry, racism, xenophobia, etc... i would imagine this would work the same way that it works now. you see something, you click the " ! " on the post to flag it for the mods OR if it is directed towards you, you can post in C&A giving examples. again, the rules already exist within the community guidelines, we don't need help from the UN, as you suggested. i personally am just looking for enforcement and andy has taken a bigger step towards realizing this is an actual problem, than anyone else has in the past. incase you have never read the guidelines, here you go:
Subject: Community Guidelines

• In no circumstances is bigotry allowed.
  • Bigotry includes racism, aggressive homophobia, religion bashing or wishing violence on any minority group.
  • Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent - posting "White Power" in a thread has a history and is bigoted, posting "Green Power" makes you an environmentalist.

it's all there, CC just needs to figure out what is the proper way to begin enforcing their own guidelines accordingly. again, very positive actions by the staff ...-0