Share Your Opinion! -- The Map Foundry: Stamp of Approval?

[Night Strike]

Owen, and the others involved in that heated exchange, your opinions have been stated, so let's move on.

Owen thinks the foundry people don't actually want to listen to opinions and are invading General Discussions.
MrBenn disagrees with Owen and thinks some people who criticize the foundry do so just because they don't want to contribute.

Let's leave those comments and move on. This thread is supposed to be getting opinions from community members, not hearing the same people making the same comments repeatedly. Let people make their comments, but then move on. It's very hard to get community opinions when 5 people are dominating the first 5 pages.

[gimil]

I think with new people it is a case of you win some you loose some ruff. I never was a regular in the early development (my role was to check graphical standards later on) but I could probably list of good bunch of maps that went through the foundry just fine with first time map makers. Actually at the moment (I think) most maps in development are under production by first time map makers. Dont cite me though I would need to double check. If that doesn't show a good attitude to new map makers I don't know what does.

So then how does that explain my point regarding the complete non-interest in even telling me that my map idea sucked? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? (Someone's probably racing to the thread now. <laughing out loud>). You didn't seem to address it.

Your right, I have no explaination. also again thou, I never much ventured into early development so I can't offer you any more explaination than I already have. I can only assume you idea didn't stick out or grab anyones intrest.

[mibi]

Can't we all just have a banana.

Of course some are right, the foundry does have its fair share or arrogant Cartographers. Isn't that right mibi.

Are you implying that I am arrogant? Only someone of my own massive intellect could be able to handle the depth of my humbleness.

btw, August 6th you can catch me on Penn and Teller's Bullshit. It airs on Showtime.

[Woodruff]

Can't we all just have a banana.

Of course some are right, the foundry does have its fair share or arrogant Cartographers. Isn't that right mibi.

Are you implying that I am arrogant? Only someone of my own massive intellect could be able to handle the depth of my humbleness.

<laughing> I love it!

btw, August 6th you can catch me on Penn and Teller's Bullshit. It airs on Showtime.

Seriously? That's awesome!

[Timminz]

August 6th you can catch me on Penn and Teller's Bullshit.

Really?

[mibi]

August 6th you can catch me on Penn and Teller's Bullshit.

Really?

Yes I talk about taxes and stuff. I cannot confirm that I do not get made fun of, but I think I am on their side. Who knows what they do in editing though.

[Timminz]

August 6th you can catch me on Penn and Teller's Bullshit.

Really?

Yes I talk about taxes and stuff. I cannot confirm that I do not get made fun of, but I think I am on their side. Who knows what they do in editing though.

Cool beans!

[TaCktiX]

They blew it royally and nearly lost one of the finest artists on the site in the process. Now if they could get it right in the future, it was a beautiful blueprint for how things could work in a more mainstream format.. maybe.

That was not the Foundry's fault, that was the original artist's fault. Marvaddin put a laundry list of restrictions on Rj's version, things that COULD NOT change or he would veto the revamp. I suppose that's an object lesson in how one person can frame the perception of an entire group.

Actually at the moment (I think) most maps in development are under production by first time map makers. Dont cite me though I would need to double check.

In the most recent issue of the Foundry Newsletter, 2 of the 4 Recently Quenched, 14 of 27 Main Foundry, and all 3 Preliminary Reviews are by first timers. In essence, over half of the foundry is by first-timers.

So then how does that explain my point regarding the complete non-interest in even telling me that my map idea sucked? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? (Someone's probably racing to the thread now. <laughing out loud>). I'm not complaining that my map idea wasn't liked. I'm complaining that it wasn't worth anyone's time (other than yeti_c) to say anything at ALL about it. You didn't seem to address that.

I know I am not alone in the following two things, but I only speak for myself: I never visit Ideas, and I hate telling someone their idea has no hope. I tried being a part of Ideas numerous times over the past year and a half, but every time I had to contend with tons of calls for the latest Star Wars map (some people never understand copyright) and tons of decent ideas with no structure behind them (no graphic artist is going to pick up an idea that has one sentence worth of thought put into it). It got old. So if your idea DIDN'T fit into the above two cases, I didn't know as I don't check Ideas.

As for the topic, the Foundry is not perfect. But I ask, what is? Accusations of elitism, as pointed out by jiminski earlier, can be leveled at every single forum on CC. Do some self-analysis, and it's obvious. It's why I stay out of GD (most of the time), I don't like the GD brand of elitism. The Foundry itself is a very "tough love" place. Maps only get better by criticizing them, some maps should never be made, and some people don't have the skill to be at the Foundry's standard yet. These three truths are what drive the Foundry, and I'm sure contribute to the elitism perception. The Foundry is a difficult place to thrive, as most of the time it's boatloads of unthanked work interspersed with comments that can amount to "go back to the drawing board and try again". Effort in often does not equal the reward out until the very end (when you get to play your own map on the site). That's the nature of the beast, it can't be fixed.

But that's mapmakers. Commenters have a much easier time, with direct rewards for good comments (guess how I got my FA position), and a visible impact on the way the Foundry's maps grow and improve. For first-timers I would recommend coming to my present playground, the Drafting Room. Topics are really short and all mapmakers are desperate for any and all comments, particularly ones that show them what to improve in the next version. As gimil has stated earlier with the elite showing him what to do, for newer mapmakers most of the improvements don't occur to the mapmaker until someone else notes it. Just like new mapmakers, I believe the Drafting Room is the place to start for anyone wanting to comment on the maps that those mapmakers make.

[jiminski]

They blew it royally and nearly lost one of the finest artists on the site in the process. Now if they could get it right in the future, it was a beautiful blueprint for how things could work in a more mainstream format.. maybe.

That was not the Foundry's fault, that was the original artist's fault. Marvaddin put a laundry list of restrictions on Rj's version, things that COULD NOT change or he would veto the revamp. I suppose that's an object lesson in how one person can frame the perception of an entire group.

I agree of course that Marv was at the heart of this taking 9 months more than it should have.
But think of it this way - in the event of another Revamp, if the Foundry allowed the original artist a super-veto again, in your opinion, would it still be solely the original artists fault if the same problems arose?

It is an object lesson in how fragile support can be from newcomers.
It was also another pretty good lesson: when the foundry makes an effort to get the greater and more universal input it so craves, it must ensure that they are in the position to actually listen to that input!

It was a brilliant showcase of Foundry talent for the rest of the site to get involved in. God the maps were beautiful and creative! But it got rubbished by the deal.

I am still angry at what happened in there, as i am sure many in the foundry are! However, simply to blame Marv does not ensure improvement.

The situation rightfully reflects upon the whole group.

I hope members of the Foundry are frustrated, embarrassed and angry at what happened or they will not be galvanised to ensure one largely peripheral individual can no longer stunt the artistic process. It is essential to cartographic process that the finest results be hammered out on the anvil of public debate, whilst ultimate control is wrested in the hands of the existing artist. This balanced with an unobtrusive staff who assist with comments and shepherd discourse to the finest end without blocking avenues of individual genius.

That is when the Foundry is at its best after-all.

[gimil]

I agree of course that Marv was at the heart of this taking 9 months more than it should have.
But think of it this way - in the event of another Revamp, if the Foundry allowed the original artist a super-veto again, in your opinion, would it still be solely the original artists fault if the same problems arose?

We learnt after this that we would rather a revamp didn't happen than allow any veto-power to anyone (other than lackattack himself of course).

[jiminski]

I agree of course that Marv was at the heart of this taking 9 months more than it should have.
But think of it this way - in the event of another Revamp, if the Foundry allowed the original artist a super-veto again, in your opinion, would it still be solely the original artists fault if the same problems arose?

We learnt after this that we would rather a revamp didn't happen than allow any veto-power to anyone (other than lackattack himself of course).

iiiii know ya drunken, whiskey-breathed brawler ..

I agree with that too and know the foundry learned, i was just addressing the point Tac made about it solely being Marvs fault. (along with unfair perception by association) It took no responsibility on to the Foundry. What use is that?.. process must allow for even the smallest minded Herbert, made crazed by maternal instinct for their creation.
i understand Marv's instinct actually but the ability for a mother bear to commit a frenzied attack on random kagool-wearing map-makers in hiking boots must be limited

[gimil]

iiiii know ya drunken, whiskey-breathed brawler ..

I agree with that too and know the foundry learned, i was just addressing the point Tac made about it solely being Marvs fault. (along with unfair perception by association) It took no responsibility on to the Foundry. What use is that?.. process must allow for even the smallest minded Herbert, made crazed by maternal instinct for their creation.
i understand Marv's instinct actually but the ability for a mother bear to commit a frenzied attack on random kagool-wearing map-makers in hiking boots must be limited

I never did say that it was totally marvs at fault you stuck up tea drinking snob!

What I am saying is that in the original set up of the revamp we didn't think any problems would arise with the conditions marv put down. We were ultimatly wrong and learnt from it.

[jiminski]

iiiii know ya drunken, whiskey-breathed brawler ..

I agree with that too and know the foundry learned, i was just addressing the point Tac made about it solely being Marvs fault. (along with unfair perception by association) It took no responsibility on to the Foundry. What use is that?.. process must allow for even the smallest minded Herbert, made crazed by maternal instinct for their creation.
i understand Marv's instinct actually but the ability for a mother bear to commit a frenzied attack on random kagool-wearing map-makers in hiking boots must be limited

I never did say that it was totally marvs at fault you stuck up tea drinking snob!

What I am saying is that in the original set up of the revamp we didn't think any problems would arise with the conditions marv put down. We were ultimately wrong and learnt from it.

heheh, i know ya skirt wearing log-tosser! But Tac did.

Again, i know that you learned from it, i know you are as frustrated as me by it.. perhaps more .. but i am susceptible to frustration
I was only taking up the point about culpability (as Tac was denying any) and trying to impart how bloody irritating the whole thing was for an outsider.

Also, though i will likely not contribute, Revamps are the right event to bring new, first-time contributors in to the foundry and broaden its exposure. People who have never been in before care about maps they have already played on. The Brazil vote was brilliant, the maps were brilliant and the set-up was amazing.... just that one thing buggered it all up and undid all the possible good which could come from it!

Now if we are saying that the Foundry is a good example of industry on here .. (in my opinion the best) it needs to always be introspective with a view to its outward image.

Now if that image is (rightly or wrongly), xenophobic and intransigent, you are missing a trick.

If the outsiders perception is "Not goin there! they made me feel unwelcome and that my opinion was crap!" then facilitating Marv's behaviour absolutely reinforced that belief.

that may be very unfair but it may also be the reality.

[gimil]

Now if that image is (rightly or wrongly), xenophobic and intransigent, you are missing a trick.

If the outsiders perception is "Not goin there! they made me feel unwelcome and that my opinion was crap!" then facilitating Marv's behaviour absolutely reinforced that belief.

that may be very unfair but it may also be the reality.

You are correct jim, you rotten toothed bastard!

I think I am still a little to wired to the 'elitism' conversation (which I don't think you are).

[Woodruff]

So then how does that explain my point regarding the complete non-interest in even telling me that my map idea sucked? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? (Someone's probably racing to the thread now. <laughing out loud>). I'm not complaining that my map idea wasn't liked. I'm complaining that it wasn't worth anyone's time (other than yeti_c) to say anything at ALL about it. You didn't seem to address that.

I know I am not alone in the following two things, but I only speak for myself: I never visit Ideas, and I hate telling someone their idea has no hope. I tried being a part of Ideas numerous times over the past year and a half, but every time I had to contend with tons of calls for the latest Star Wars map (some people never understand copyright) and tons of decent ideas with no structure behind them (no graphic artist is going to pick up an idea that has one sentence worth of thought put into it). It got old. So if your idea DIDN'T fit into the above two cases, I didn't know as I don't check Ideas.

It definitely did not. But if you'd like, you can check it out at:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 63&t=80593

[owenshooter]

well, with the foundry being moved to the top of the list, it will soon be the most visited forum on the site... i mean, what kind of logic is that? seriously, i am giving it another go, attempt number 5, and i am trying to spend as much time in there as i do the other sub forums i visit... so, i am giving it all another chance, due to the plea of one rational PM from a foundry regular who convinced me to do so... however, the bump of the forum to the top kind of makes alot of the points in this thread even more valid... it will be interesting to see if the forums are visited the same amount of time after the move... can't wait to see that data... anyway, giving it another go, and i hope it is different than the last times i made it into there...-0

[john9blue]

Now how did I miss this...?

The one thing that the Foundry needs is people. They aren't short on good ideas, but it's hard to comment on a map when you feel like the only newbie, and it's even harder to make a map when nobody gives any feedback. If someone makes a suggestion from the point of view of a player, then hopefully it will be well received (as those are the people that the maps are made for). But for being the only portion of the forums that directly affects the actual game, it doesn't get as much activity as it should.

[Woodruff]

Why was this thread moved to NEWSLETTERS? It seems far more appropriate to the General Discussion to me. This thread isn't going to be seen by those who don't read the newsletters...so I guess their opinions aren't important?

[TaCktiX]

Why was this thread moved to NEWSLETTERS? It seems far more appropriate to the General Discussion to me. This thread isn't going to be seen by those who don't read the newsletters...so I guess their opinions aren't important?

It is an opinion segment being run by the CC Newsletter. All Newsletter activities will now take place in this forum, and since they all have their own dedicated place to exist, readership will likely go up, at least of the Foundry and Tournament Newsletters. With the reorganization people who "don't read" the Newsletter will at least check the forum out, and might start reading.

[ender516]

First, just to make sure this post is at least partly on topic, I voted for the second option in the poll. Having said that, I don't comment a lot of the time, because I don't see a lot of value in a "me, too". However, I guess if that attitude is widespread, it may not give enough feedback for a mapmaker to see what the community thinks is the right track. So, if the foundry needs more feedback, it is going to have to be a bit more tolerant of repetitive comments.

So then how does that explain my point regarding the complete non-interest in even telling me that my map idea sucked? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? (Someone's probably racing to the thread now. <laughing out loud>). I'm not complaining that my map idea wasn't liked. I'm complaining that it wasn't worth anyone's time (other than yeti_c) to say anything at ALL about it. You didn't seem to address that.

I know I am not alone in the following two things, but I only speak for myself: I never visit Ideas, and I hate telling someone their idea has no hope. I tried being a part of Ideas numerous times over the past year and a half, but every time I had to contend with tons of calls for the latest Star Wars map (some people never understand copyright) and tons of decent ideas with no structure behind them (no graphic artist is going to pick up an idea that has one sentence worth of thought put into it). It got old. So if your idea DIDN'T fit into the above two cases, I didn't know as I don't check Ideas.

It definitely did not. But if you'd like, you can check it out at:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 63&t=80593

I did in fact "race to the thread" (even before you added this link: advanced search is a wonderful thing) and realised that I had seen this and not commented. My bad. I will now (over there, so as not to hijack this thread).

[Woodruff]

Why was this thread moved to NEWSLETTERS? It seems far more appropriate to the General Discussion to me. This thread isn't going to be seen by those who don't read the newsletters...so I guess their opinions aren't important?

It is an opinion segment being run by the CC Newsletter. All Newsletter activities will now take place in this forum, and since they all have their own dedicated place to exist, readership will likely go up, at least of the Foundry and Tournament Newsletters. With the reorganization people who "don't read" the Newsletter will at least check the forum out, and might start reading.

I actually suspect the opposite will be the case (less people will see opinion pieces like this, rather than people going to the Newsletter area for the opinion pieces), but I realize that's said without having anything but my opinion to back it up. Hopefully, that won't be the case...but I've found that underestimating the natural laziness of people in general is a sure way to failure.

[owenshooter]

It is an opinion segment being run by the CC Newsletter. All Newsletter activities will now take place in this forum, and since they all have their own dedicated place to exist, readership will likely go up, at least of the Foundry and Tournament Newsletters. With the reorganization people who "don't read" the Newsletter will at least check the forum out, and might start reading.

this thinking is so flawed, it is actually hilarious.-0

[jpcloet]

It is an opinion segment being run by the CC Newsletter. All Newsletter activities will now take place in this forum, and since they all have their own dedicated place to exist, readership will likely go up, at least of the Foundry and Tournament Newsletters. With the reorganization people who "don't read" the Newsletter will at least check the forum out, and might start reading.

this thinking is so flawed, it is actually hilarious.-0

I guess time will tell. I did go back and read some of the early Tournament Newsletters to see what was there, format etc.

[TaCktiX]

this thinking is so flawed, it is actually hilarious.-0

No it is not flawed. Lemme highlight a few things in that post.

It is an opinion segment being run by the CC Newsletter. All Newsletter activities will now take place in this forum, and since they all have their own dedicated place to exist, readership will likely go up, at least of the Foundry and Tournament Newsletters. With the reorganization people who "don't read" the Newsletter will at least check the forum out, and might start reading.

There's a difference between naivete and optimism, you apparently missed it, and I for one am getting sick and tired of your sarcastic attitude about everything around this reorganization.

[owenshooter]

There's a difference between naivete and optimism, you apparently missed it, and I for one am getting sick and tired of your sarcastic attitude about everything around this reorganization.

as andy pointed out, it is only phase one, and he is asking for patience... sooo, i'm giving him some patience, since he has made some serious and positive changes... i have to trust the monkey.. however, i still think it is naive to think that moving the foundry's physical position will improve traffic, when one of the main reasons the foundry is not visited is due to the atmosphere created by the regulars and the style of moderation within that forum.. you know, kind of like your response to my post. again, the foundry regulars and a few of their mods never disappoint with continually showing why people do not venture into it, with their actions and comments in other forums... you know, kind of like what most of this thread states from non-foundry regulars.

and again, i have been going in there regularly for the past month. not posting much, but poking around and giving it my 5th try, at the request of a foundry regular who convinced me to do so. i must say, i don't see much change and i still see the same attitude that is apparently within everyones collective imagination...-0