Mafia tournament - Open Setups

[Ragian]

In please

[pmchugh]

In, like edoc says if you don't get enough people just make it double elim. In fact it may work better that way anyway.

[DoomYoshi]

Another thought: the current format doesn't make sense to me as it gives mafia players a greater chance of winning.

Theoretically, a good setup will have 50/50 chance of mafia winning. Since the setup is based on winning when only a certain amount of players are eliminated then the more eliminations there are, the closer you get to victory.

So, let's say you win 50/50. If you win as mafia, then you are 2/3 more likely to survive to the end as if you were town (2 other players advancing with you as opposed to 6 other players advancing with you). The current setup would work if there was only a 30% chance of mafia winning; which means the games would have to be unbalanced. I would prefer it if

A) it was not elimination-based;
B) if it must be elimination-based, to make the eliminations less drastic. For instance: the losing team decides which player to eliminate (think the Apprentice). Since there would be less eliminations this way, we could just play a certain number of games and then the overall score would determine the winner. Unfortunately, this just reverses the problem and makes town a better bet.

There are some major problems though: if there are no eliminations, then we need to have constant replacements, and the player burden become even greater.
If the tournament takes too long, it may just be won by attrition (players who stick around longer are more likely to win).

[Rodion]

Another thought: the current format doesn't make sense to me as it gives mafia players a greater chance of winning.

Theoretically, a good setup will have 50/50 chance of mafia winning. Since the setup is based on winning when only a certain amount of players are eliminated then the more eliminations there are, the closer you get to victory.

So, let's say you win 50/50. If you win as mafia, then you are 2/3 more likely to survive to the end as if you were town (2 other players advancing with you as opposed to 6 other players advancing with you). The current setup would work if there was only a 30% chance of mafia winning; which means the games would have to be unbalanced.

I considered that there would be a problem if games are 50/50 and winning as mafia is worth more than winning as town, but I felt it would be too hard to adress (as you said, I'd have to purposefully unbalance games to make the tournament balanced) and didn't bother solving it.

I could perhaps swap the "tournament ends when less than 20% players remain" and just go "we'll have 3 rounds: win all of them and you are one of the winners", but if mafia were to win all 4 round 1 games, we'd have only 12 players remaining with 2 rounds to go and I'd have to invite many players as guests for the round 2-3 games.

[DoomYoshi]

Maybe instead of a tournament there could be a league structure? There could be a mod-appointed MVP for the winning team, as well as a player-voted one. So, if you win, and get both MVP awards, it counts as 3 wins? This way, players could lose 1 of the 3 games, but still potentially win the tournament/league.

[pmchugh]

You could just make it double elimination. I think that reduced the effect of mafia advantage. Or even further you could make it double elimination unless you got a town role both times, in which case you get a final chance. I am not sure if these are balanced though, it hurts my head thinking about it!

Also I think the less winners the better. Less than 20% of 40 is 8 or less. From there you could do:

2v6 (for 8 players)
2v5 (for 7)
1v5 (for 6)
1v4 (for 5)
1v3 (for 4)

Giving a worse case scenario of 3 winners rather than 8, maybe I just like individuality too much though

[crazymilkshake5]

I can mod/co mod if needed

[Nebuchadnezer]

I think this is a rather lofty goal to get 40 people to commit to this idea. Look at the current games waiting for players...they are all LARGE games. Everyone wants their grand idea to be played out (including me), but I'm not sure there is the activity here, or even the numbers to get 40 to play.

With that said, I would like to start a smaller F11 game, and get a chance to mod. However, I would also be willing to mod this game as part of the tourney you suggest.

Perhaps, you just start a few games with the title "tourney game 1" in it, and then see how many participate, and track the participants. Then decide how the next rounds work. After you have your established base, you can PM them for future tourney games as the tourney advances.

I do think this forum needs some of the smaller setups to get games going quicker and to move them along quicker. All these grand games are daunting...especially with the special setups in some of them.

[Rodion]

Provisional list to gauge number of participantes:

1 - Milkshake
2 - Gordon
3 - Shield
4 - Yoshi
5 - Clever
6 - Everywhere
7 - Ghostly
8 - Soundman
9 - New Guy
10 - Safari
11 - Edocsil
12 - Strike
13 - Dazza
14 - Ragian
15 - Pmchugh

Yoshi and Edocsil did not say they'd join, but I think they would.

Yoshi, don't edit posts after I've read them or I may never see what you edited!

Anyway, the setup I had in mind for Round 1 was the same used in The General's Pro Mafia.

viewtopic.php?f=610&t=161779

The only thing that sucks is a townie could be N0 killed and eliminated from the tournament if his town loses without participating from the tournament at all. To solve that we could maybe bump that setup to Round 2 and find other ones for Round 1?

Here is a good list of open setups from mafia scum:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... pen_Setups

[DoomYoshi]

C9++, JK++ and others are my favourite. That would perhaps start with 3 13 player games then.

[DoomYoshi]

Anyways, the reason I like JK9++ is because doctor becomes a viable fakeclaim. I hate how counterclaiming is seen as a gold standard for scumtell. Who says there can't be 2 trackers?

[safariguy5]

I'm partial to Pie E7 myself.

[DoomYoshi]

I'm partial to Pie E7 myself.

It's in the category: unbalanced open setups. Doesn't say why on the page, though. In general, I think non-randoms are pretty tough to balance.

I can only think of one: true love.

[ghostly447]

All of this got me thinking. I dont think a Tournament would exactly give glory to all those who earned it. There would be too much throwing under the bus trying to make it to the end just to win.

Does anyone know how to make a latter? That is something that could maybe be an entirely different thread off of this forum that would have a list of players and ordered ranking of personal mafia wins, town wins, 3rd party wins, etc, and overall wins and losses. Then as games are completed, the latter is updated by a mod specifically assigned to it (even if its just a volunteer mod that has time on their hands).

That way, our game play doesnt exactly change to throwing everyone under, its still a team effort, and records are just kept and maybe the top 3 could have awards. And there could be separate awards for things like: First to 3 mafia wins, First to 3 3rd party wins, and stuff of that sort. Even most MVP awards.

Just my thinking, but if we can work out all the kinks in this tournament, I still think it will be interesting .

[safariguy5]

All of this got me thinking. I dont think a Tournament would exactly give glory to all those who earned it. There would be too much throwing under the bus trying to make it to the end just to win.

Does anyone know how to make a latter? That is something that could maybe be an entirely different thread off of this forum that would have a list of players and ordered ranking of personal mafia wins, town wins, 3rd party wins, etc, and overall wins and losses. Then as games are completed, the latter is updated by a mod specifically assigned to it (even if its just a volunteer mod that has time on their hands).

That way, our game play doesnt exactly change to throwing everyone under, its still a team effort, and records are just kept and maybe the top 3 could have awards. And there could be separate awards for things like: First to 3 mafia wins, First to 3 3rd party wins, and stuff of that sort. Even most MVP awards.

Just my thinking, but if we can work out all the kinks in this tournament, I still think it will be interesting .

There's a thread in the CC Mafioso group and also an older one in the discussions where people informally keep their record of games.

I doubt we could do anything official, but it's nice to look at your track record.