Templars 4.17

[SoN!c]

the temples no longer connect across the east-west divide, which makes sense.

however, there are too many 2-region and 3-region bonuses, so u'll have to find a way to stop player from starting so often with one or more of them.

experience with waterloo shows that the 1v1 gameplay here is likely to be west against east instead of christian against muslim. one method of encouraging the latter is, for example, to state in the legend that each player may receive either christian or muslim country bonuses, but not both, at the start of a turn.

put the latest version number in the title of the original post and current post to help readers, otherwise it's hard to refer to a particular version clearly.

ian.

Great feedback. Also I do not want a christian vs muslim but like waterloo more a east vs west battle. (I want Baltic Crusades, Conquer Rome and Waterloo gameplay). I'll get to work on the " too many 2-region and 3-region bonuses". You are right. But map size is so tiny it's hard to cramp more stuff in while not having a crowded feeling about it.

"each player may receive either christian or muslim country bonuses, but not both" sounds great if it can be done on XML and without high risk of getting a bonus on drop


Well, thanks again for the food for thought. Highly appreciated!

[SoN!c]

So new day, new ideas...

Here is 3.20:



West:
Andalus is gone (now part of the Moravid Empire), Portugal, France, England and HRE +1 terr.

East:
Seljuk empire is gone (now part of the syria bonus) - and has arid extra space for more legend
Antioch and Jerusalem is gone and now form together a new bonus region "outremer" + 2 terrs extra
Cyprus is now a "seafort" (like the crusader stronghold) and 3 neutral
Thinking of making Egypt part of the east Moravid empire (or syria) as a merely bonus region

Saladin (muslim) cavalry is faded black

[plurple]

well, that's tru.

so here is the version with Damiette, legend, neutrals and bonusses (version 3.19). If it's played 1vs1 each player gets 1 noble on west and east side (and so on).

looks good. couple of things I don't understand in the legend:
"Templar win condition: Hold all templar sites to win" not sure what a templar site is? same with the Calphrate territories for the saladin.
"Templar connection via templar fleet gives +2 range" not sure what this means at all
There are 2 camels on the left but only 1 on the right do they both connect to Egypt 1?

The dark red writing is very hard to read on the black same with some of the black bonus number in the square boxes. I don't know what the plus castle to Jerusalem, Antiochia and Syria means exactly. If it is just that bonus plus the crusader stronghold the values seem high.

[plurple]

"each player may receive either christian or muslim country bonuses, but not both" sounds great if it can be done on XML and without high risk of getting a bonus on drop

Yes it is possible to have one bonus override another one

Also not sure if you said how many starts a player gets of the 12 starting regions, by default it would be
6, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1

You can add a max of 3 or whatever if you want to.

[SoN!c]

Good solid feed back: so next version is here! 3.21



2 new west looking nobles (and 2 islamic rulers, the Sultan in the East and the Caliph in the West as extra terr so Egypt is not up for grabs too easy or gifted on drop) and extra legend in former seljuk terrs done.

Templar fleet connection means if you start from a Templar symbol you get +2 range on the ship route.

This version needs some tidy up on image details but i think this is the "final" game mechanic.


There are 2 camels on the left but only 1 on the right do they both connect to Egypt 1? YES (as the crusader route was west to east mainly). But a second camel could be placed ofcourse.

"Caliph symbols" have changed to Sultan in the east and flipped "caliph" symbol in the west.

Rethinking the win condition..

[iancanton]

some ships seem to connect to every bit of visible land, resulting in hard-to-defend country bonuses and rather messy-looking seas. we can, for example, delete the ship route to bordeaux without obvious ill-effects. the ships do have a nice dynamic of losing troops though.

do players start with the shields and nothing else? how many maximum?

ian.

[SoN!c]

Templars 3.22:



So the fix of the "messy lines of the ship connections" will be that "all ships connect to each other" stated in the legend (on the same side + the original connection between west and east)

The ship left bottom is a bit useless then so i made this the "Templar Flag ship" which can bombard the other ships on the same side (like the Templar Sea Fort in the East).
The Templar Flag ship has the Templar symbol way more pronounced in its sails to make it stand out.

One of the "outremer" terrs is now placed inland without "port connection". And a lot of ports in the West are deleted as suggested. Still in doubt about south east France y/n to have a port connection so that needs adjustment when looked at.

do players start with the shields and nothing else? how many maximum?

Good question, my idea was that a lot of terrs would be randomized but starting with the shields and nothing else would turn it into a real long game but also very strategic i think (like a chess game where the best player eventually wins?) and ofcourse 1vs1 you would get 2 starting points (shield) one on each side of the map.
New Win condition: im thinking on it, i have an idea about a 'Templar grandmaster wincon" to keep it in the theme (name of the map).

On Templars 3.22 the map mechanic is done i hope (just the legend and names (numbers) need to be inserted..at least to go into real live testing.. 40 more updates after testing probably

[SoN!c]

Templars 3.23



Map tidied up, little changes in terrs, connections and graphics.

Inserted territory symbols

[SoN!c]

[SoN!c]

Templars 3.24 with legend (COMPLETE)

here:

[SoN!c]

HERE IT IS!!:

LARGE 830x800:




small size 630x600:

[SoN!c]

ImgBB link as extra link in case the other site has difficulties:

(click to enlarge to true large size)

[SoN!c]

3.25 (very small changes lol)

[plurple]

3.25 (very small changes lol)

Looks good I need a few things clarified before I can make the xml will also wait for Iancanton's feedback Firstly you have only linked to a large version (and while I can resize it myself I would rather you do it so I don't mess it up and I don't have to fire up my other computer )

The first post isn't up to date with the latest version of the map

Now onto map specifics
1. It would be useful to specifically label the 2 sides east and west while it is fairly obvious always best to be explicit
2. What regions start neutral? and what are the neutral values (these don't need to be added to the map but I need them to make the map though it can be useful to have an example map with neutrals on it once the map is finalised)
3. how many shields does a player get currently it would be 6 each in 2 player, 4 for 3 player, 3 for 4, 2 for 5 and 6, 1 for the rest. I can set a max as 2,3,4 whatever you want
4. the first sentence of the legend means little to me. "Templar port connection gives +2 range via templar fleet." partly the +2 range: does that mean connects to those adjacent and those adjacent to them i.e. on classic Sydney connects to Jakarta as well as Pertha nd port moresby or as far as Bangkok? I'm also not sure what regions this applies to
5. Not sure how the noble shield attack onto the main map something to do with the ships on that side but otherwise a little unclear.
6. Need a little clarification on the win condition on what counts as a templar site. is that just the templar ports and ship, is it also the temples, overlords, sea fort and crusader stronghold?
7. are these the same regions:
a. Celephrate 1 and West Sultan
b. Egypt 1 and East Sultan
c. Cyprus and Sea Fort
d. Syria 3 and Stronghold
8. Are the overlords killer neutrals? or just normal regions.

I think that is all for the current version Sorry for so many questions making maps is fiddly

[SoN!c]

The first post isn't up to date with the latest version of the map : it is. 3.25 still needs a smal map version but perhaps more idea's come / waiting for feedback before making the smal size map.

Now onto map specifics
1. It would be useful to specifically label the 2 sides east and west while it is fairly obvious always best to be explicit OK
2. What regions start neutral? and what are the neutral values (these don't need to be added to the map but I need them to make the map though it can be useful to have an example map with neutrals on it once the map is finalised)
all ships 1 neutral except the flag ship 3
all temples 3 or 4 neutral (waiting on feedback)
both overlords 8 or 12 killer reset neutral? (waiting on feedback)
crusader stronghold 3 neutral
templar sea fort 3 neutral
caliph and sultan 3 neutral

3. how many shields does a player get currently it would be 6 each in 2 player, 4 for 3 player, 3 for 4, 2 for 5 and 6, 1 for the rest. I can set a max as 2,3,4 whatever you want

waiting for feedback but i like 6 each in 2 player, 4 for 3 player, 3 for 4, 2 for 5 and 6, 1 for the rest.

4. the first sentence of the legend means little to me. "Templar port connection gives +2 range via templar fleet." partly the +2 range: does that mean connects to those adjacent and those adjacent to them i.e. on classic Sydney connects to Jakarta as well as Pertha nd port moresby or as far as Bangkok? I'm also not sure what regions this applies to

So if you start from a templar symbol sided terr and take a ship (range 1) you can move 1 terr further (like the horses on waterloo)

5. Not sure how the noble shield attack onto the main map something to do with the ships on that side but otherwise a little unclear.
The nobles (+3 range) first move is only possible onto a ship (on same side), from that ship +2 range.

6. Need a little clarification on the win condition on what counts as a templar site. is that just the templar ports and ship, is it also the temples, overlords, sea fort and crusader stronghold?

everything with the templar symbol so yes temples included (the templar symbol is on there), also on the flag ship but not the other ships. (But not the crusader stronghold as it has gotten another symbol shield).

7. are these the same regions:
a. Caliphrate 1 and West Sultan (no west sultan autodeploys +2 as it says in the legend and has same mechanic as a temple: to be taken within the terr)
b. Egypt 1 and East Sultan = idem
c. Cyprus and Sea Fort = idem
d. Syria 3 and Stronghold = idem
8. Are the overlords killer neutrals? or just normal regions. Killer neutrals (unless beter feedback idea's)

I think that is all for the current version Sorry for so many questions making maps is fiddly [/quote]

[plurple]

4. the first sentence of the legend means little to me. "Templar port connection gives +2 range via templar fleet." partly the +2 range: does that mean connects to those adjacent and those adjacent to them i.e. on classic Sydney connects to Jakarta as well as Pertha nd port moresby or as far as Bangkok? I'm also not sure what regions this applies to

So if you start from a templar symbol sided terr and take a ship (range 1) you can move 1 terr further (like the horses on waterloo)

Okie dokie I think that is what I understood it to mean. I would consider removing the + symbol as I think that adds to the confusion

5. Not sure how the noble shield attack onto the main map something to do with the ships on that side but otherwise a little unclear.
The nobles (+3 range) first move is only possible onto a ship (on same side), from that ship +2 range.

ok that is just confusing then if the shield only attack the ships I would change the sentence to reflect that as the ship bit is said earlier

6. Need a little clarification on the win condition on what counts as a templar site. is that just the templar ports and ship, is it also the temples, overlords, sea fort and crusader stronghold?

everything with the templar symbol so yes temples included (the templar symbol is on there), also on the flag ship but not the other ships. (But not the crusader stronghold as it has gotten another symbol shield).

So 18 territories total for the win condition 13 map territories, 1 ship and 4 temples?

7. are these the same regions:
a. Caliphrate 1 and West Sultan (no west sultan autodeploys +2 as it says in the legend and has same mechanic as a temple: to be taken within the terr)
b. Egypt 1 and East Sultan = idem
c. Cyprus and Sea Fort = idem
d. Syria 3 and Stronghold = idem

That is fine was just confused as no circles for the numbers for these which is fine I can find a spot for the number when I make the xml

Last question is it a conquest map i.e. just dropped shields or do the map territories other than the neutrals already mentioned get handed out?

[SoN!c]

4. the first sentence of the legend means little to me. "Templar port connection gives +2 range via templar fleet." partly the +2 range: does that mean connects to those adjacent and those adjacent to them i.e. on classic Sydney connects to Jakarta as well as Pertha nd port moresby or as far as Bangkok? I'm also not sure what regions this applies to

So if you start from a templar symbol sided terr and take a ship (range 1) you can move 1 terr further (like the horses on waterloo)

Okie dokie I think that is what I understood it to mean. I would consider removing the + symbol as I think that adds to the confusion

Yes but it is also the win con? i think its pretty clear?

5. Not sure how the noble shield attack onto the main map something to do with the ships on that side but otherwise a little unclear.
The nobles (+3 range) first move is only possible onto a ship (on same side), from that ship +2 range.

ok that is just confusing then if the shield only attack the ships I would change the sentence to reflect that as the ship bit is said earlier

OK will change the sentence!

6. Need a little clarification on the win condition on what counts as a templar site. is that just the templar ports and ship, is it also the temples, overlords, sea fort and crusader stronghold?

everything with the templar symbol so yes temples included (the templar symbol is on there), also on the flag ship but not the other ships. (But not the crusader stronghold as it has gotten another symbol shield).

So 18 territories total for the win condition 13 map territories, 1 ship and 4 temples?

well yes, if this is not enough for win?

7. are these the same regions:
a. Caliphrate 1 and West Sultan (no west sultan autodeploys +2 as it says in the legend and has same mechanic as a temple: to be taken within the terr)
b. Egypt 1 and East Sultan = idem
c. Cyprus and Sea Fort = idem
d. Syria 3 and Stronghold = idem

That is fine was just confused as no circles for the numbers for these which is fine I can find a spot for the number when I make the xml

I get what you mean and you are right! Two more circles to be added or the terrs are the same..

Last question is it a conquest map i.e. just dropped shields or do the map territories other than the neutrals already mentioned get handed out?

handed out unless feedback gives other advice!

[SoN!c]

3.26 (added 2 new terrs next to sultan and caliph) and new text (first draft) for legend (click to enlarge to true size)

[plurple]

Okie dokie looks good.

Just so I am clear I understand how the connections work I will give an example.

West noble 1 (not sure if these have proper names ) connects to all 5 ships on the west side.
Then West Ship 4 would obviously connect to Roman 2 and France 4. Is it also able to attack Roman 1, France1, 3, 5 and Caliphate 9? or further?
and same for France 4 can it attack Roman 2?

Is the sultan and caliph Cavalry +2 range a conditional if you own the respective one then the regions with cavalry on them can now attack further away? I.e. Caliphate 5 can normally hit Caliphate 3, 4 and 6 but with the Sultan can also hit Caliphate 1, 2 and 7. Do camels count as cavalry I assume not but good to check

[SoN!c]

Okie dokie looks good.

Just so I am clear I understand how the connections work I will give an example.

West noble 1 (not sure if these have proper names ) connects to all 5 ships on the west side. YES (and i will provide names for the nobles)

Then West Ship 4 would obviously connect to Roman 2 and France 4. YES

Is it also able to attack Roman 1, France1, 3, 5 and Caliphate 9? or further? NOT Roman 1 as there is sea between Roman 1 and Roman 2 and no connection symbol like there is between Ireland-scotland. All the rest : YES

and same for France 4 can it attack Roman 2? YES, if you start at France 4 that has a Templar port connection so range is then +2, imagine first connection is ship 4 and from there it is able to attack Roman 2 (or any other ship as all ships connect).

Is the sultan and caliph Cavalry +2 range a conditional if you own the respective one then the regions with cavalry on them can now attack further away? I.e. Caliphate 5 can normally hit Caliphate 3, 4 and 6 but with the Sultan can also hit Caliphate 1, 2 and 7. NO, if you hold a terr with a cavalry symbol you have +2 range attack from there. Perhaps the text in the legend needs to be adjusted then.

Do camels count as cavalry I assume not but good to check
NO

[SoN!c]

Templars 3.27! (click to see true size)



New legend top right corner and tiny changes. I like the suggestion of a conditional cavalry!

[plurple]

Ok provide me with a small version as well and I can make the first xml. I will probably not make all the range stuff correctly but will be easy to fix

[SoN!c]

small 630x600: