The Great War, new gameplay and advices needed

[Oneyed]

I like the new graphics a lot, nice work.

thank you

I still can't read the text very well though.

better?

Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

[sannemanrobinson]

What do you mean with Attacks with conditional borders? If AEF only functions to fort between London and Bordeaux there is not much use in it.

[Oneyed]

What do you mean with Attacks with conditional borders? If AEF only functions to fort between London and Bordeaux there is not much use in it.

I mean that you can attack AEF from London only if you hold respective conditional border and when you can attack AEF from Bordeaux you also need to hold respective conditional border.
from AEF to London or to Bordeaux is possible normal attack.

Oneyed

[AndyDufresne]

The upper left legend misspells 'capital' next to the auto-deploy.


--Andy

[Dukasaur]

I'm trying to figure out the bonus structure.

Does "bonus valid once" mean that you cannot have more than one bonus?

If I hold Italy and Ottoman, what do I get?

[Oneyed]

The upper left legend misspells 'capital' next to the auto-deploy.

I see now. thanks. will be corrected.

I'm trying to figure out the bonus structure.

Does "bonus valid once" mean that you cannot have more than one bonus?

If I hold Italy and Ottoman, what do I get?

there are not written bonuses for states. my bad...
"bonus valid once" is for occupied regions, not for state bonuses. and it is valid for the states of the same power only.

so if you hold German Empire and A, B, C, D non CP regions you get +2 for occupied regions. when you also hold Ottoman Empire you do not get next +2 for A, B, C, D non CP regions.

could you help me witht text here to write this correctly but short?

thanks guys for advices .

Oneyed

[Dukasaur]

I'm trying to figure out the bonus structure.

Does "bonus valid once" mean that you cannot have more than one bonus?

If I hold Italy and Ottoman, what do I get?

there are not written bonuses for states. my bad...
"bonus valid once" is for occupied regions, not for state bonuses. and it is valid for the states of the same power only.

so if you hold German Empire and A, B, C, D non CP regions you get +2 for occupied regions. when you also hold Ottoman Empire you do not get next +2 for A, B, C, D non CP regions.

could you help me witht text here to write this correctly but short?

I'm thinking something like:

Override bonus:
Hold one complete Major Power in either alliance (Central Powers or Entente) and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside an enemy power. You can collect only one override bonus.

then the list:

Entente:

UK
France
Russia
Italy

Central Powers:

Germany
Austria-Hungary
Ottoman
Bulgaria

On a related note, I think Bulgaria may be too easy to hold. Might want to sacrifice historical accuracy for the sake of playability there and leave Bulgaria as a minor power only.

Then again Italy doesn't really belong with the Entente, either. It was original signatory to Central Powers pact. But all this can be discussed later.

Now, the above is okay if you can only hold one side or the other. But if it is possible to hold an override bonus on both sides, then we have to go something like this:

Override bonus:
Hold one complete Central Power and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside an Entente power.

Override bonus:
Hold one complete Entente nation and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside a Central power.

Entente:

UK
France
Russia
Italy

Central Powers:

Germany
Austria-Hungary
Ottoman
Bulgaria

You can only hold one override bonus on each side.

[Oneyed]

I'm thinking something like:Override bonus:
Hold one complete Major Power in either alliance (Central Powers or Entente) and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside an enemy power. You can collect only one override bonus.

I spoke about overrides with thenobodies. what do you mean with "collect only one override bonus"? it is not possible to code what I have: either you have 2 States of the same Power you get bonus for occupied regions only once?

On a related note, I think Bulgaria may be too easy to hold. Might want to sacrifice historical accuracy for the sake of playability there and leave Bulgaria as a minor power only.

wait, Bulgaria itself does not have bonus. only with Balkan States. and also bonus for occupied regions could be set up so: Bulgaria WITH Balkan States.

Then again Italy doesn't really belong with the Entente, either. It was original signatory to Central Powers pact. But all this can be discussed later.

the map is not from 1914. as you can see the positions are from about 1915 when Italy was in war on Entete powers side.

Now, the above is okay if you can only hold one side or the other. But if it is possible to hold an override bonus on both sides, then we have to go something like this:
Override bonus:
Hold one complete Central Power and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside an Entente power.

Override bonus:
Hold one complete Entente nation and get a bonus army for every two territories occupied inside a Central power.

you mean that I can write to legend "Overrides"? do people (players) know what means Override?

You can only hold one override bonus on each side.

wait, what I understan from thenobodies it is possible to do this:
bonus for occupied regions (on the same side) valid once.
and this is only what I want. I think...

I am realy confused with all these oerrides and so on. thank you for help and comments. I will work on update version, but I have broken leg and I also work on another maps.

Oneyed

[Dukasaur]

That's okay, I have a Dispatch deadline this week and 21 active tournaments, plus of course the never-ending annoyance known as R/L.

Foundry I barely notice in between my other duties, so the longer the delay the better..

[iancanton]

despite the subject being familiar from europe 1914, i very much like the concept here of invasion routes thru the trenches only via the battlefields. the artwork is crisp and clear. unfortunately, the explanation of the conditional borders is not clear at all and u will need a different wording.

the map tries to cover too much territory, with the result that western and central europe, where the war was largely won and lost, looks tiny, while the ottoman empire has too many regions shown compared with its role in the war. u're attempting to show the russian revolution too, which adds unnecessary complexity to the bonuses: the russian empire by itself is enough, while moscow, samara, the railway and the don cossacks participated in the russian revolution rather than the great war.

i recommend that u draw a line roughly from petrograd to alexandria and delete all regions that are east of this line. after u do this, try rotating the playable area clockwise by 30 degrees and zoom in slightly with the playable area centred on vienna or munich, while using the space east of the petrograd-alexandria line for a unified legend.

the british empire and italy colours are too similar to each other, so it's unclear that malta is needed for the british bonus. perhaps use pink for the british empire, since pink was traditionally used by british cartographers?

why is corsica shown as independent? it was, and is, french! maybe it's best not to name corsica, but simply have it as an unplayable region in the french colour; delete the sea route from marseille, so that france can attack italy only thru lombardy, which keeps more of the play in the middle of europe.

ian.

[Oneyed]

i very much like the concept here of invasion routes thru the trenches only via the battlefields.

[iancanton]

i very much like the concept here of invasion routes thru the trenches only via the battlefields.

wait. with battlefield you mean current version with "only" opposite armies (without battlefields as regions) or this* old version with battlefields as regions?

i mean the new version. instead of the two opposing armies, it's possible to have only a single battlefield region with killer neutral, as u did before, but u chose to keep the opposing armies, which is fine. do u receive a +1 bonus for holding f2 and g3, but -2 if u have neither burgundy nor bavaria, making a total of -1?

the explanation of the conditional borders is not clear at all and u will need a different wording.

thanks. yes the legend and wording is allways nightmare for me

can u give an example of how u want it to work?

the map tries to cover too much territory, with the result that western and central europe, where the war was largely won and lost, looks tiny, while the ottoman empire has too many regions shown compared with its role in the war.

I know problem about Ottoman Empire. becasue the Ottoman Empire is easy to secure I add there more regions to gain this bonus harder. also this side of map is a little "closed" with a little maneuver possibilities. this needs to be solved...

i recommend that u draw a line roughly from petrograd to alexandria and delete all regions that are east of this line.

but we "need" Caucasus because the connection between Russian Empire and Ottoman Empire here is the bigest problem...

we can solve the above situations by adding the russian black sea fleet and letting it one-way bombard constantinople.

u're attempting to show the russian revolution too, which adds unnecessary complexity to the bonuses: the russian empire by itself is enough, while moscow, samara, the railway and the don cossacks participated in the russian revolution rather than the great war.

yes on one side you are right, but on the another side the revolution was part of these times and it adds realistic feature. maybe if we try more simple way how to add revolution there?

the trouble is that the russian revolution removed russia from the war, so the two conflicts were only weakly linked. there are inconsistencies caused by showing a railway only in russia but nowhere else and creating a russian empire bonus that is pointless because it can never be held except by holding the soviet bonus.

ian.

[Oneyed]

do u receive a +1 bonus for holding f2 and g3, but -2 if u have neither burgundy nor bavaria, making a total of -1?

yes. my idea was that when you lost region in which is army located you can not supply army. but after your notice I see that this can not works this way...
so +2 for both opposite armies would be better?

can u give an example of how u want it to work?

the conditional borders for one way moving troops from capital to town with the same flag is only as reinforce, not for attacks. therefore you must hold both (capital and town and also entire capitals state).
example: you hold Ottoman Empire (with Constantinople ofcourse) but you can not attack Alexandria from Constantinople. but when you take Alexandria from Egypt (and you still hold Ottoman Empire) you can reinforce troops from Constantinople to Alexandria.

the conditional borders for one way moving troops from AEF to F2 is the similar case. you can not attack F2 from AEF (because conditional border tells that for moving troops you need hold both AEF and F2 and also Bordeaux), but when you take F2 from Burgundy and you hold also Bordeaux and AEF you can reinforce troops from AEF to F2.

maybe it looks confusing but I spoke with thenobodies about this and it is simple when I understand how game works:
1, check decay, bonuses, killer neutrals...
2, check assaults
3, check reinforce (so when you take F2 during step 2 you can reinforce from AEF to F2 - ofcourse if you hold entire conditional border)

we can solve the above situations by adding the russian black sea fleet and letting it one-way bombard constantinople.

but there will not be the way from Ottoman Empitre to Russia. and (mainly to the 1916) was also Ottomans active here - their ships from Germany bombard Russian towns and attack Russian ships.
what about add to Black sea Russian ship which could bombards Angora, Constantinople and Ottoman ship. and add there also Ottoman ship which could bombard Ukraine, Russia and Russian ship.
to show later Ottoman weakness their ship could:
- lose any armies each round?
- or revets to neutral?
- or maybe can not bombard Russian ship?

the trouble is that the russian revolution removed russia from the war, so the two conflicts were only weakly linked.

I can not agreed totaly here. the revolution was important event:
- Central powers moved all troops to western front
- Central powers gained all Ukraine, Batlic States, Belorusia
- Entete powers had new problem with support White Russians

so we could anyway shows revolution here.

there are inconsistencies caused by showing a railway only in russia but nowhere else and creating a russian empire bonus that is pointless because it can never be held except by holding the soviet bonus.

to hold Russian Empire you do not need Samara and Moscow, so you can hold Russian Empire without Soviet Union.

I strongly thought about more railways (Berlin-Wilhemshaven-Munich-Vienna-Budapest-Belgrade-Sofia). we could add any railways when central europe will be larger, I think.

thanks ian.

Oneyed

[tkr4lf]

I don't really have any useful comments here, just wanted to drop in and say that the current version of the map looks amazing. Very nice artwork, Oneyed.

[Oneyed]

I don't really have any useful comments here, just wanted to drop in and say that the current version of the map looks amazing. Very nice artwork, Oneyed.

thank you. I am glad that you like it. hope the next version will be a little better

Oneyed

[iancanton]

do u receive a +1 bonus for holding f2 and g3, but -2 if u have neither burgundy nor bavaria, making a total of -1?

yes. my idea was that when you lost region in which is army located you can not supply army. but after your notice I see that this can not works this way...
so +2 for both opposite armies would be better?

yes, +2 is better than +1.

the conditional borders for one way moving troops from capital to town with the same flag is only as reinforce, not for attacks. therefore you must hold both (capital and town and also entire capitals state).
example: you hold Ottoman Empire (with Constantinople ofcourse) but you can not attack Alexandria from Constantinople. but when you take Alexandria from Egypt (and you still hold Ottoman Empire) you can reinforce troops from Constantinople to Alexandria.

that makes more sense now!

what about add to Black sea Russian ship which could bombards Angora, Constantinople and Ottoman ship. and add there also Ottoman ship which could bombard Ukraine, Russia and Russian ship.
to show later Ottoman weakness their ship could:
- lose any armies each round?
- or revets to neutral?
- or maybe can not bombard Russian ship?

the idea i like best is to add a russian ship and ottoman ship with bombardments, but the ottoman ship cannot bombard the russian ship. this will allow u to remove the caucasus, the middle east and the entire right-hand side of the map east of the petrograd-alexandria line (possibly moving africa further west), with the space being used for a cleaner legend. certainly, merge derna with cyrenaica, since both were held by italian forces; no need to complicate things by adding derna separately, since no major battles took place there. similarly, merge dobruja with bulgaria, since it was under bulgarian control from the period of this map to the end of the war.

the trouble is that the russian revolution removed russia from the war, so the two conflicts were only weakly linked.

I can not agreed totaly here. the revolution was important event:
- Central powers moved all troops to western front
- Central powers gained all Ukraine, Batlic States, Belorusia
- Entete powers had new problem with support White Russians

so we could anyway shows revolution here.

there are inconsistencies caused by showing a railway only in russia but nowhere else and creating a russian empire bonus that is pointless because it can never be held except by holding the soviet bonus.

to hold Russian Empire you do not need Samara and Moscow, so you can hold Russian Empire without Soviet Union.

to show moscow on the map, but outside of the russian empire, is not common sense! possibly add a non-geographic lenin region, with neutrals, for the soviet bonus, instead of moscow, and remove samara?

I strongly thought about more railways (Berlin-Wilhemshaven-Munich-Vienna-Budapest-Belgrade-Sofia). we could add any railways when central europe will be larger, I think.

this is possible if u stretch the western half of the map a little. also perhaps add hamburg as a german city, both to show germany's industrial might and to use the +2 bonus to compensate the german player for his difficult central position?

delete the sea route from marseille, so that france can attack italy only thru lombardy, which keeps more of the play in the middle of europe.

will be not Italy too closed? only Lombardy and Cyrenaica must be secured to hold Kingdom of Italy.

let malta and sicily border each other. this keeps the same number of border regions for italy as before, while not letting france have such a big advantage by stacking troops on marseille.

ian.

[isaiah40]

Oneyed, this is your best map so far. I believe that you will need to use the supersize that we have allowed you to use. You have up to 780x650 on the small. When you increase the size, don't increase the size of the map by the same amount because you will still need to make the legend clear and readable. Please pm me your supersize version so I can go over it with the other blue people.

[Oneyed]

what happends, this was after update moved to map foundry... also update is lost and some posts after it...

Oneyed

[Armandolas]

site crash, last 24h lost

[Oneyed]

I see now, thanks Armandolas.

[Oneyed]

I understand that there was any problem with system and therefore was this map moved from Map foundry back to Recycling box (btw could this be moved back?), but I do not understand who changed/edited title of topic? there was wrote UPDATED, pg 8. now there is nothing and I did nothing...

Oneyed

[thenobodies80]

sorry my fault, i didn't noticed the update.
Moved back, disregard the PM i have sent to you.

[Oneyed]

no problem nobodies . and thank you.

Oneyed

[cairnswk]

This look good for now...i'll have a closer look later.

[iancanton]

let's try to understand the bonuses.

there are four types of land region: capital, town, province and army. capitals and towns have +1 autodeploy. if u hold the capital of a state, then u receive a home bonus of +2 for every 3 provinces and armies held in that state.

if u hold an entire state (capital, towns, provinces and armies), then u receive the state bonus. u also receive an occupation bonus of +1 for every 2 provinces and armies held in the opposite alliance, but only if u do not hold the capital of that state.

to receive the maximum occupation bonus, u must hold an entire entente powers state plus an entire central powers state.

am i correct?

ian.