Deciding Map Complexity

[Coleman]

I agree, but I want to hear from a couple more people first in case someone disagrees.

I'll be playing Assassin's Creed while I wait...

[cairnswk]

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Mongol Empire
Middle Earth
Middle East
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate


2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
BeNeLux
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Montreal
Philippines
San Francisco
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front


3) Complex

Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Space
Siege!
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts


4) Hardcore/Extreme

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Conquer Man
Feudal Wars
King of the Mountains
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Solar System

==============
Something like that...maybe.


--Andy

I am in agreeance with this list from Andy.

I actually am quite enraged and insulted that you might have a "Freaking Weird" category especially when most of my maps which i don't consider that hard appear to be in that category as derived by other persons. I prefer the term Hardcore/Extreme.

[rebelman]

Simple
Classic
Arctic
Asia
Australia
BeNeLux
Brazil
British Isles
Canada
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
North America
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA

Freaking Weird
Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Berlin 1961
Conquer Man
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings

Moderate
Alexander's Empire
Ancient Greece
Africa
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Discworld
Great Lakes
Hong Kong
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Mongol Empire
Montreal
Tamriel
WWII Eastern Front


Complex
American Civil War
Battle For Australia
Cairns Coral Coast
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
King of the Mountains
Madness
Midkemdil
San Francisco
Siege!
Solar System
Space
U.S. Senate
World 2.1
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts


My thoughts, having played all the above maps and chalked up wins on most of them

I divided these as fairly and objectively as possible as for me at this stage almost all maps would be green with a few oranges thrown in but that would not be a fair division.

[rebelman]

i replied before i saw the request for no more lists but i think my list should be considered carefully as i have tried to reflect views i have heard expressed in live chat as well as my own experiences of playing all the maps.

PS Dim change that sig having read all 7 pages now im sick of the boobs on the cat already

i also prefer the phrase hardcore / extreme

[Coleman]

I actually am quite enraged and insulted that you might have a "Freaking Weird" category especially when most of my maps which i don't consider that hard appear to be in that category as derived by other persons. I prefer the term Hardcore/Extreme.

You're too easily insulted lately and I'm not quite sure how to deal with it.

[Coleman]

i replied before i saw the request for no more lists but i think my list should be considered carefully as i have tried to reflect views i have heard expressed in live chat as well as my own experiences of playing all the maps.

PS Dim change that sig having read all 7 pages now im sick of the boobs on the cat already

i also prefer the phrase hardcore / extreme

I will add your votes into the list I have and repost it. I think extreme is what we'll be going with. I thought Freaking Weird was funny and I couldn't think of anything else at the time. Hardcore could also inadvertently offend some pornophobe or something.

EDIT: They are added, you moved 4 maps to my confused status.

[DiM]

where there's a majority i'd say go with that even if other people posted that map in 2-3 other categs. for example circus maximus has 1S 11M and 1C. it's clear M is the best choice.
in the following quote i took out all the clear majorities and left only the close ones and added my thoughts:

Code: Select all

Conflict Level Map Name             S        M        C        E
-------------- -------------------- -----    -----    -----    -----
3              Italy                6        7        0        0
i think M is the best choice here. it has the city bonuses and it has the dual language legend that could pose a problem for the idiots out there.
4              Mongol Empire        7        6        0        0
this one is an M because the different impassables that aren't explained anywhere and because of the trade route.(i previously explained the trade route confusion)
4              BeNeLux              6        7        0        0
an M for this one also. don't have any particular reason except the cities.
4              Philippines          6        7        0        0
the naval bases that attack eachother and offer bonuses are the reason i say this is an M.
4              American Civil War   0        7        6        0
also an M here. even if it would fit towards the upper section of M is still think it's not C material.
5              8 Thoughts           0        6        7        0
the dual continent terits and the unusual grouping of the bonuses makes me tend towards a C. it's not very complex but it can sure pop a lot of questions.
Confused       Siege!               2        5        6        0
a 3-way split. but despite that i'm sure it's a C. one way attacks and the grouping of the bonuses make it very problematic for the noobs. especially the one way attacks. they are clear arrows and yet i've seen so many people asking about them. especially the tunnel 1way.
Confused       Duck and Cover       1        6        6        0
here i'd go with C. towards the lower end of C but still. the bombardments still pose a lot of problems for new players. i don't know why. perhaps better instructions on the site should be done. and since this map has excessive bombardments i'd say C.
Confused       King of the Mountain 0        6        5        2
i know i rated this extreme and to be honest i still stand by my decision despite being in the minority. this map has the kings the shapes the helipads the one way attacks, i've seen noobs that can't understand why kings can't attack other kings despite being clear in the legend. however since i'm in a minority here if the choice isn't to put it as E then at least put it as C. it is in no way just moderate. it's at least complex.


all other maps i haven't included in the list above i have opted for the majority of votes. yes even iwo jima that is split 4 ways i went with C cause it has most votes.

[DiM]

By the way, thanks for being a good sport about this so far. I know this isn't really something you're liking right now.

i don't agree with many things but that doesn't mean i'm not going to help

the other 2 options would be sabotage and indifference and neither of them is my forte.

[DiM]

PS Dim change that sig having read all 7 pages now im sick of the boobs on the cat already

what's not to like? free beer pussy boobs. come on it's every man's dream

plus she loves you long time

[wcaclimbing]

sweet.
http://www.bovineconspiracy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=536&Itemid=42

They have a summary of CC.

Theres a Good/Bad/Ugly section, and they listed "some of the maps are confusing" in the bad section. So, at least its not only us that acknowledge that they are confusing

[Coleman]

I'm all for just doing what DiM said (except for maybe some of the closer to call ones, we'll argue those a bit more). Let me show you how that would look in a little bit.

[DiM]

I'm all for just doing what DiM said (except for maybe some of the closer to call ones, we'll argue those a bit more). Let me show you how that would look in a little bit.

i think you're having a secret crush on me. lately you've agreed to most of the things i say.

btw i like red roses and dinner by the lakeside with nice candles on the table.

[Coleman]

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coarl Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
Great Lakes
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front


3) Complex

Berlin 1961
Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Solar System

4) Extreme

Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Battle of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor
Valley of the Kings[/quote]

Too Close
Alexander's Empire (Simple or Moderate)
American Civil War (Moderate or Complex)
Bamboo Jack (Complex or Extreme)
BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate)
Duck and Cover (Moderate or Complex)
Europe (Simple or Moderate)
Italy (Simple or Moderate)
King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
Mongol Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Philippines (Simple or Moderate)
Rail USA (Complex or Extreme)
Siege! (Moderate or Complex)
USApocalypse (Moderate or Complex)
WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)
WWII Western Front (Moderate or Complex)
8 Thoughts (Moderate or Complex)

[Coleman]

My Thoughts

Alexander's Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: You can play on the water and it's dead space. If CCU is moderate (which we agreed it is apparently) then so is this.

American Civil War (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: There is too much going on for this to fit in with our other Moderate votes.

Bamboo Jack (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: Other then a lot of continents and the unusual building orientation there really isn't a lot going on. I hardly think you need BOB for this...

BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm surprised this was so close, what makes this Moderate?

Duck and Cover (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: Bombardments are going to throw a new user nearly every time. Unfortunately...

Europe (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: The one way paths are clearly explained right next to where they are, it's not confusing.

Italy (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: Seriously people....

King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: A lot of purists play or have played this and seem to not hate it. That would make me think there isn't anything too obtrusive about it.

Mongol Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm again confused by the Moderate here, that trading route is just dotted lines connecting stuff, and it's the only weird thing on here, and it really isn't that weird.

Philippines (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: This is just bias on my part, I find it a bit confusing and can't explain why.

Rail USA (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: If you figure out the naming system it all falls into place. It's not as simple as moderate by any means, but extreme is a stretch.

Siege! (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: The one way routes are again, easily explained and drawn right where they happen. The split continents aren't that bad either, but this might be my bias again.

USApocalypse (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: It's design and the weird logs it sends you confuse many a player.

WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: I think simple, but that's not an option... I can tell you this map has no gimmicks. Yeah, that's right. No gimmicks as we defined them. So why is it complex?

WWII Western Front (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: If we think Eastern Front is Moderate... (We Do) Then it's only reasonable to say this is Complex.

8 Thoughts (Moderate or Complex)
No freaking clue. I'll side with Complex...

[DiM]

Too Close
Alexander's Empire (Moderate)
American Civil War ( Complex)
Bamboo Jack (Extreme)
BeNeLux (Moderate)
Duck and Cover (Complex)
Europe (Moderate)
Italy (Moderate)
King of the Mountains (Complex)
Mongol Empire (Moderate)
Philippines (Moderate)
Rail USA (Extreme)
Siege! (Complex)
USApocalypse (Complex)
WWII Iwo Jima (Complex)
WWII Western Front (Complex)
8 Thoughts (Complex)

i won't state again all the reasons for making the choices above. i will just say this.
when in doubt between simple and moderate it's better to put it in moderate for safety reasons.
for example player X joins CC and sees italy as simple so he plays it. he gets confused by the city bonuses and the dual language and loses the game. he's frustrated he can't even play a simple map and quits.

but if we put italy in moderate player X comes on CC and plays his first map on italy. he knows it's moderate so if he encounters problems he'll switch to simple maps until he gets better knowledge. if however he understands the map he'll get a sudden self pleased feeling that he's smart and got to moderate level right from the start. it's a win win situation.

[Coleman]

I like that logic... You have swayed me.

Still disagree with these enough to want to fight about it:

Too Close
Bamboo Jack (Extreme)
King of the Mountains (Complex)
WWII Iwo Jima (Complex)

First off... I can't accept people thinking Bamboo Jack is extreme. It just doesn't feel right to me, at all. It has a lot of continents, fine, that's not an extreme characteristic. Some of the continents are really huge, still not an extreme characteristic. It has that odd building orientation... I'll sit on the fence with that one.

Other then those three things I don't know what else you can argue might be extreme, and since my opinion has two of those as complex, and fence sitting on the other, the complex side is heavier.

For King of the Mountains, I see so many people playing it multiple times that normally only play simple maps. To suddenly say it is Complex in the face of that also feels wrong to me. I think WidowMakers did a great job of giving something non-standard a simple interface that can make what would be complex features for someone else passably moderate in the eyes of the player.

WWII Iwo Jima. I'll say this again, we came up with this huge list of non standard features. Iwo Jima doesn't have any of those. Not a one. I'm not even comfortable calling this Moderate, but I'm in the minority there. To say it is Complex seems outrageous to me. Is qwert so skilled that he can make nothing but Classic Features confusing?

[wcaclimbing]

First off... I can't accept people thinking Bamboo Jack is extreme. It just doesn't feel right to me, at all. It has a lot of continents, fine, that's not an extreme characteristic. Some of the continents are really huge, still not an extreme characteristic. It has that odd building orientation... I'll sit on the fence with that one.

Im going to have to put my vote down for Bamboo Jack as extreme, along with DiM. Theres just too much stuff going on for that map for it to be complex.

EDIT: king of mountains should be moderate. The only confusing thing is the helicopters and kings, nothing too complicated.

[rebelman]

My Thoughts (mine in blue)

Alexander's Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: You can play on the water and it's dead space. If CCU is moderate (which we agreed it is apparently) then so is this.

agreed

American Civil War (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: There is too much going on for this to fit in with our other Moderate votes.

agreed

Bamboo Jack (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: Other then a lot of continents and the unusual building orientation there really isn't a lot going on. I hardly think you need BOB for this...

disagree i played this in fog of war and holy sh1t was it confusing and i love complex maps but this is the most extreme on cc so im saying extreme for this one its a head wrecker

BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm surprised this was so close, what makes this Moderate?

agreed

Duck and Cover (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: Bombardments are going to throw a new user nearly every time. Unfortunately...

agreed

Europe (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: The one way paths are clearly explained right next to where they are, it's not confusing.

agreed
Italy (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: Seriously people....

agreed

King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: A lot of purists play or have played this and seem to not hate it. That would make me think there isn't anything too obtrusive about it.

i disagree here its definitely a complex map especially when you compare it to the others in the moderate category -

Mongol Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm again confused by the Moderate here, that trading route is just dotted lines connecting stuff, and it's the only weird thing on here, and it really isn't that weird.

disagree a bit like crossword in a way this map seems to be seen by players as more complicated than it actually is

Philippines (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: This is just bias on my part, I find it a bit confusing and can't explain why.
agree

Rail USA (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: If you figure out the naming system it all falls into place. It's not as simple as moderate by any means, but extreme is a stretch.

disagree this should be extreme you need bob for this one and its not for the faint hearted
Siege! (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: The one way routes are again, easily explained and drawn right where they happen. The split continents aren't that bad either, but this might be my bias again.

disagree maybe its the haunted ducks but this map is possessed by evil spirits so complex
USApocalypse (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: It's design and the weird logs it sends you confuse many a player.

agreed

WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: I think simple, but that's not an option... I can tell you this map has no gimmicks. Yeah, that's right. No gimmicks as we defined them. So why is it complex?

agreed

WWII Western Front (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: If we think Eastern Front is Moderate... (We Do) Then it's only reasonable to say this is Complex.

agreed

8 Thoughts (Moderate or Complex)
No freaking clue. I'll side with Complex...
agreed

[Coleman]

Well so far in our debate...

Despite DiM's logic I am back to thinking BeNeLux should be simple. Along with Europe after seeing rebelman agree with me. I get the foreign language factor with Italy though.

So BeNeLux is now 2 v 1
Europe is now 2 v 1

Bamboo Jack is 1 v 3 (I think I lose here... Fair enough)
King of the Mountains is now 2 v 2
WWII Iwo Jima is 2 v 1.

I think the rest are decided so far unless someone brings them back up.

[Coleman]

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Cairns Coarl Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
Scotland
South America
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate

Alexander's Empire
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
Great Lakes
Italy
Madness
Malta
Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Philippines
San Francisco
Space
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front


3) Complex

American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Crossword
Duck and Cover
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Siege!
Solar System
USApocalypse
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Extreme

Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Bamboo Jack
Battle of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor
Rail USA
Valley of the Kings[/quote]

Too Close
BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate)
Europe (Simple or Moderate)
King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)

[Qwert]

Coleman
WWII Iwo Jima. I'll say this again, we came up with this huge list of non standard features. Iwo Jima doesn't have any of those. Not a one. I'm not even comfortable calling this Moderate, but I'm in the minority there. To say it is Complex seems outrageous to me. Is qwert so skilled that he can make nothing but Classic Features confusing?

_________________
Aim comlete agree with you Coleman,i dont see nothing what these map present complex,maybe moderate for tunnel attack,but these map is not Complex.

[DiM]

I like that logic... You have swayed me.

i told you you have a secret crush on me. freak

Still disagree with these enough to want to fight about it:

Too Close
Bamboo Jack (Extreme)
King of the Mountains (Complex)
WWII Iwo Jima (Complex)

cool. let's fight. pick your weapon. mine is smelly socks

First off... I can't accept people thinking Bamboo Jack is extreme. It just doesn't feel right to me, at all. It has a lot of continents, fine, that's not an extreme characteristic. Some of the continents are really huge, still not an extreme characteristic. It has that odd building orientation... I'll sit on the fence with that one.

Other then those three things I don't know what else you can argue might be extreme, and since my opinion has two of those as complex, and fence sitting on the other, the complex side is heavier.

as rebelman posted above there's too much going on that map. too many bonuses too much confusion. a new player won't even know what continent to aim for where to deploy and what to attack. don't get me wrong i like that map but it is complex not by the power of xml gimmicks but by the power of a very hard to understand layout. if you want it's like the crosswords map only more extreme.

For King of the Mountains, I see so many people playing it multiple times that normally only play simple maps. To suddenly say it is Complex in the face of that also feels wrong to me. I think WidowMakers did a great job of giving something non-standard a simple interface that can make what would be complex features for someone else passably moderate in the eyes of the player.

i also have to agree with rebelman here. imagine having italy and kotm in the same category as moderate. there's no way you can compare them. kotm is definitely more complex.

WWII Iwo Jima. I'll say this again, we came up with this huge list of non standard features. Iwo Jima doesn't have any of those. Not a one. I'm not even comfortable calling this Moderate, but I'm in the minority there. To say it is Complex seems outrageous to me. Is qwert so skilled that he can make nothing but Classic Features confusing?

crosswords has no gimmicks either (and when i say gimmicks i refer strictly to xml features) and yet it's very complicated.
i don't know about iwo jima, perhaps i'm wrong here perhaps it should be just moderate, i can live with that. i put it in complex because that's the impression i have. at a first glance as a noob i would stay away from it.
in fact i don't even think i've played on that map and i certainly won't. it seems way too cluttered for me. especially the background. it distracts my attention and breaks my focus. but as i said i'm fine if you move it to moderate.

[Coleman]

Well a noob should stay away from Moderate too...

You already won Bamboo Jack, it's in the updated list on the bottom of page 8.

I think we may need a general forum poll. Is King of the Mountains confusing? You want to draft one with me to help eliminate influencing them one way or the other?

I'm still going to fight for Moderate on Iwo Jima. It may be the upper half of that, but it's not that bad... If you're interested in horse trading consider my shutting up on my Bamboo Jack thoughts is a trade for you to let this be Moderate?

What's now back up is Europe and BeNeLux. I just don't see them as Moderate.

Draft One:
Is The King of the Mountains Map Confusing?
Nah, it's easy.
Took me a bit...
I'm not sure I completely get it.
I have nightmares about it...

[DiM]

So BeNeLux is now 2 v 1
Europe is now 2 v 1

King of the Mountains is now 2 v 2
WWII Iwo Jima is 2 v 1.

benelux. not much i can add except what i already said before. we'll need a few more opinions.

europe is confusing not only because of the one way attack but mostly because some army numbers are hard to see (when will we get a revamp?) and the impassables aren't explained anywhere especially since they are very poorly drawn. look at the mountains from italy, most of them are covered by terit labels. same goes for the mountains above romania (which btw don't exist) these impassables cause much confusion. i can point you to many threads where people complained.

for kotm read my post above
same for ivo jima.

[Coleman]

If it's just cities for BeNeLux I don't see it as Moderate. The only reason I agree with your Italy assessment is it has cities and is in Italian. (I take it we assume english users.)

Edit: Actually even if we don't the rest of the interface is in English...