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Deciding Map Complexity

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Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:18 pm

fireedud wrote:
Kaplowitz wrote:
Coleman wrote:Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.


its not our fault if people dont read the rules. Unless the rules are complex to read for this map (which they arent) then the player is at fault. I dont know what to say about the categories though (leaning towards moderate)...when i first played it, i didnt realize that the tops of the mts. can attack eachother and that they had a bonus.


the tops of the mts. can't attack each other.


...

Oh yea! Youre right! (i should play that map more...) then how did i lose that game?...

rebelman wrote:this post proves its complex imho


woops!
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Postby Bad Speler on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:21 pm

Since i was asleep while you guys were discussing this, i'll start at the beginning. As with rebelmen, my edits are in blue.

Coleman wrote:My Thoughts

Alexander's Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: You can play on the water and it's dead space. If CCU is moderate (which we agreed it is apparently) then so is this.
Agreed

American Civil War (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: There is too much going on for this to fit in with our other Moderate votes.
Agreed, theres dead space, capitals, ships...

Bamboo Jack (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: Other then a lot of continents and the unusual building orientation there really isn't a lot going on. I hardly think you need BOB for this...
Agreed, sure, the buildings make it complex, but what makes it extreme?

BeNeLux (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm surprised this was so close, what makes this Moderate?
Honestly, this is the only map with non-classic features besides one ways i think is simple because the capitals are insanely simple

Duck and Cover (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: Bombardments are going to throw a new user nearly every time. Unfortunately...
I disagree, theyll learn from the first mistake, maybe inquire about it in forums or wonder about it, but i doubt they will repeat a mistake once they see how it works

Europe (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: The one way paths are clearly explained right next to where they are, it's not confusing.
Agreed

Italy (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: Seriously people....
Disagree, if Scotland and Great Lakes are in moderate, then italy deserves to be moderate as well. Plus it has that foreign language thing.

King of the Mountains (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: A lot of purists play or have played this and seem to not hate it. That would make me think there isn't anything too obtrusive about it.
Agreed, the rules are very easily explained, nothing special about this. Its easier than everything in the complex category.

Mongol Empire (Simple or Moderate)
Simple: I'm again confused by the Moderate here, that trading route is just dotted lines connecting stuff, and it's the only weird thing on here, and it really isn't that weird.
Agreed

Philippines (Simple or Moderate)
Moderate: This is just bias on my part, I find it a bit confusing and can't explain why.
Agreed...there are naval bases, which are ranged attacks.

Rail USA (Complex or Extreme)
Complex: If you figure out the naming system it all falls into place. It's not as simple as moderate by any means, but extreme is a stretch.
Agreed, not sure why so many people think this is extreme, sure the continents may be oddly shaped and oddly put together, but thats hardly justification for extreme

Siege! (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: The one way routes are again, easily explained and drawn right where they happen. The split continents aren't that bad either, but this might be my bias again.
disagree, as i am still occasionally confused by the territory naming. That coupled with the ranged one way attacks make it Complex for me

USApocalypse (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: It's design and the weird logs it sends you confuse many a player.
Agreed

WWII Iwo Jima (Moderate or Complex)
Moderate: I think simple, but that's not an option... I can tell you this map has no gimmicks. Yeah, that's right. No gimmicks as we defined them. So why is it complex?
Agreed, theres no xml gimmicks, however there is that tunnel, which is easy to understand.

WWII Western Front (Moderate or Complex)
Complex: If we think Eastern Front is Moderate... (We Do) Then it's only reasonable to say this is Complex.
Agreed

8 Thoughts (Moderate or Complex)
No freaking clue. I'll side with Complex...
Agreed, low complex, because often you will have to think if the opponent has one of those star continents.


Also, I would like to throw in Battle of Actium as a complex map, not extreme. The bombardments make it a moderate map, but besides that, there are no non-classic features. The vast amount and odd shapes of territories is confusing though, bumping it up to a complex for me.
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:26 pm

Coleman wrote:Are you sure we don't want a general poll?

How about this?

How do you feel about the King of the Mountains map?
It's pretty simple.
I wouldn't say it's simple, but it isn't complex either.
It's quite complex.
I don't get it at all.

I mean, I am going to have to post our final list in General anyway for public scrutiny, and I'll need to defend it with our collective arguments.


yes i'm very sure i don't want a GD because the results will be absurd.
people will vote it's simple just because they'll get a feeling they are smart.

put a poll like this:
what's your iq?
bellow 50
51-100
101-150
over 150.

i guarantee most people will vote 150+ even if the votes are secret and even if we all know people aren't that smart. your poll is basically the same deal. are you smart enought to understand kotm?
most people will vote yes even if they have no idea how the map is played.
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Postby Coleman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:28 pm

I knew you'd say that. :lol:
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:29 pm

Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:32 pm

Coleman wrote:I knew you'd say that. :lol:


lol i just looked at the poll and simple is winning.

for the record i voted i still don't get it because i was sure i'd be the only one. and funny enough i am.

this proves my point on how useless the people are. and how they think lying on the internet is cool.
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Postby rebelman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:42 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:I knew you'd say that. :lol:


lol i just looked at the poll and simple is winning.

for the record i voted i still don't get it because i was sure i'd be the only one. and funny enough i am.

this proves my point on how useless the people are. and how they think lying on the internet is cool.


i voted complex but i was leaning towards i still dont get it as i want this map to get classified as complex to classify it as moderate or simple :shock: would be a misclassification.

further evidence its complex if you build enough men on one helipad you can break every bonus from that location there is no other map where one terrr. can break EVERY bonus and this makes it a map for experienced players that really know what they are doing so it really has to be complex.
Last edited by rebelman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hecter on Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:42 pm

Classic
Africa

Age Of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia

Bamboo Jack
Battle For Australia

Battle Of Actium
BeNeLux
Berlin 1961
Brazil
British Isles

Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
CCU
Chinese Checkers

Circus Maximus
Conquer Man

Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Discworld
Doodle Earth

Duck and Cover
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Feudal Wars
France
Germany

Great Lakes
Hong Kong
Iberia

Indochina
Ireland
Italy

King of the Mountains
Madness
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East

Midkemdil
Mongol Empire
Montreal
North America

Pearl Harbor
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
Rail USA
San Francisco
Scotland

Siege!
Solar System

South America
Space
Tamriel
USA

USApocalypse
U.S. Senate
Valley Of The Kings
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
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Postby yeti_c on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:21 pm

Coleman wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
Coleman wrote:If it's just cities for BeNeLux I don't see it as Moderate. The only reason I agree with your Italy assessment is it has cities and is in Italian. (I take it we assume english users.)

Edit: Actually even if we don't the rest of the interface is in English...


Benelux should be moderate cos not all the borders are actually borders...

C.
Explain?


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The lower half of the map has a shit load of borders that aren't borders...

Now we said - if you can look at the map and understand the borders immediately without reading legend then it's simple...

As these borders are impassible - unless there are arrows... and the borders don't necessarily follow continent lines... just "real life" countries.... then I say this is Moderate.

And with all of that - you have dual country non connected continents. (Capitals)

And now I look at it - a load of army circles aren't in the territories - and the territory names are foreign - and some are similar...

C.
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Postby Bad Speler on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:22 pm

DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:

oops, i meant in my opinion

edit...that doesnt make much sense either...i meant hexagons just dont seem to justify extreme
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Postby Coleman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:24 pm

Yeah yeti, but they are either clearly impassible or labeled impassible with pictures. No real reading needed.
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Postby Qwert on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:36 pm

WM
4) Hardcore/Extreme
Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Berlin 1961
Feudal Wars
Pearl Harbor
WWII Iwo Jima

What :?: :shock:

Benelux map is quit similar to Eastern Front,they have capital city bonus,and i dont see any other things who give these map to be Complex.
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Postby yeti_c on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:52 pm

Coleman wrote:Yeah yeti, but they are either clearly impassible or labeled impassible with pictures. No real reading needed.


Yes but borders that aren't borders "isn't standard risk"...

Which we've already stated is what Simple should be.

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Postby Snorri1234 on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:58 pm

Coleman wrote:Player Behavior as well, many of us have played games with people that don't understand Kings vs Helipads despite how clearly it is explained on the map due to their great desire to not read a single line.


its not our fault if people dont read the rules. Unless the rules are complex to read for this map (which they arent) then the player is at fault. I dont know what to say about the categories though (leaning towards moderate)...when i first played it, i didnt realize that the tops of the mts. can attack eachother and that they had a bonus.

Honestly?
Because it's pretty easy. It certainly should be moderate. Moderate means that you do have to read the legend, but not look at it constantly.
Last edited by Snorri1234 on Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WidowMakers on Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:04 pm

qwert wrote:
WM
4) Hardcore/Extreme
Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Berlin 1961
Feudal Wars
Pearl Harbor
WWII Iwo Jima

What :?: :shock:

Benelux map is quit similar to Eastern Front,they have capital city bonus,and i dont see any other things who give these map to be Complex.
My bad qwert. You are right I don't know why I put that there. I think it is a moderate map.

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Postby Fircoal on Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:18 pm

Simple
Classic
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Brazil
British Isles
Canada
CCU
Discworld
Doodle Earth
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
France
Germany
Great Lakes
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
North America
Puget Sound
Tamriel
USA

Moderate
Alexander's Empire
BeNeLux
Cairns Coral Coast
Caribbean Islands
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Duck and Cover
King of the Mountains
Madness
San Francisco
Scotland
USApocalypse
World 2.1
8 Thoughts

Complex
American Civil War
Battle For Australia
Battle Of Actium
Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Rail USA
Siege!
Solar System
Space

Extreme
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Feudal Wars
Midkemdil
Pearl Harbor

Unrated (Haven't played enough to have an opinion that would do any good)
Africa
Age Of Merchants
Bamboo Jack
Berlin 1961
Conquer Man
Hong Kong
Malta
Mongol Empire
Philippines
Portugal
South America
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Eastern Front
WWII Iwo Jima
WWII Western Front
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Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:40 pm

DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:


If i was to look at actium as a newbie, it wouldn't be anything more than complex, certainly not extreme.
It has classic style play only with lots more interlocked terts in each continent, plus a few bombardments.
Classing this as extreme is extreme IMHO. :)
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:42 pm

cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:


If i was to look at actium as a newbie, it wouldn't be anything more than complex, certainly not extreme.
It has classic style play only with lots more interlocked terts in each continent, plus a few bombardments.
Classing this as extreme is extreme IMHO. :)


you give retarded noobs too much credit :wink:

trust me they look at those hexagons and then they look again and again and after a while they get nose bleeds and a vein pops in their head.
then they appear in newspaper articles about video games that kill people :lol:
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Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:43 pm

Coleman wrote:Thanks for that well thought out post CubColtPacer. I'm sorry we discussed so much while you were writing it.

I'm glad you agree with me on Rail USA, but I think we are severely outnumbered and I've conceded to them on that...

I'm also glad you agree with me regarding King of the Mountains. I think there will be blood before we decide on that one.


RAIL USA is nothing more than complex.
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Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:50 pm

DiM wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:


If i was to look at actium as a newbie, it wouldn't be anything more than complex, certainly not extreme.
It has classic style play only with lots more interlocked terts in each continent, plus a few bombardments.
Classing this as extreme is extreme IMHO. :)


you give retarded noobs too much credit :wink:

trust me they look at those hexagons and then they look again and again and after a while they get nose bleeds and a vein pops in their head.
then they appear in newspaper articles about video games that kill people :lol:


nah...LOL, i can't trust u anymore...you give reetard newbs the wrong message your beer and boobs sig, then get trashed for it, what moral standards are your bringing into this forum DiM...I ask U? LOL :)
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Postby Qwert on Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:18 pm

you give retarded noobs too much credit

trust me they look at those hexagons and then they look again and again and after a while they get nose bleeds and a vein pops in their head.
then they appear in newspaper articles about video games that kill people

:lol: :lol: :lol:
New category:brain killer maps :lol:
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Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:17 pm

cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:


If i was to look at actium as a newbie, it wouldn't be anything more than complex, certainly not extreme.
It has classic style play only with lots more interlocked terts in each continent, plus a few bombardments.
Classing this as extreme is extreme IMHO. :)


you give retarded noobs too much credit :wink:

trust me they look at those hexagons and then they look again and again and after a while they get nose bleeds and a vein pops in their head.
then they appear in newspaper articles about video games that kill people :lol:


nah...LOL, i can't trust u anymore...you give reetard newbs the wrong message your beer and boobs sig, then get trashed for it, what moral standards are your bringing into this forum DiM...I ask U? LOL :)


When i first joined CC, i got a pm from DiM saying that he would give me free booze and boobs if i came to the map foundry (my first post was here!). he must have a program that sends messages to people when theu join or something! :?
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:37 pm

Kaplowitz wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
Bad Speler wrote:for me.


but we're not talking about you. we're talking about people with little or no risk experience that have a bellow average iq.
so think it like this. if actium is complex for you then it surely is extreme for our target :wink:


If i was to look at actium as a newbie, it wouldn't be anything more than complex, certainly not extreme.
It has classic style play only with lots more interlocked terts in each continent, plus a few bombardments.
Classing this as extreme is extreme IMHO. :)


you give retarded noobs too much credit :wink:

trust me they look at those hexagons and then they look again and again and after a while they get nose bleeds and a vein pops in their head.
then they appear in newspaper articles about video games that kill people :lol:


nah...LOL, i can't trust u anymore...you give reetard newbs the wrong message your beer and boobs sig, then get trashed for it, what moral standards are your bringing into this forum DiM...I ask U? LOL :)


When i first joined CC, i got a pm from DiM saying that he would give me free booze and boobs if i came to the map foundry (my first post was here!). he must have a program that sends messages to people when theu join or something! :?


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Postby rebelman on Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:13 am

i think i placed feudal in complex, I can't rember where it finished but having seen Yeti's thread where Feudal falls into every category it probably should be classified as extreme.
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Postby yeti_c on Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:17 am

rebelman wrote:i think i placed feudal in complex, I can't rember where it finished but having seen Yeti's thread where Feudal falls into every category it probably should be classified as extreme.


I don't think it should though - the <required> and <overrules> are simply a way of coding the bonuses - world 2.1 could be recoded to do the same - as could USA Apocalypse...

The beauty of Feudal is that although it uses all features - it's actually very simplistic...

The AOR maps are more complex despite using less features.

C.
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