DiM

[ZeakCytho]

DIM
well the fact that map making requires graphic skills most people don't have, the fact that coming up with a great gameplay requires a great knowledge of both xml as well as general risk rules and strategies kinda makes the map makers some sort of a selected group. i wouldn't call it an elite i would just call it a selected group.

Can you tell me how you know who have graphic skills and who dont have graphic skills?
I newer learn any graphic program,only when i come here,and i newer create maps,i newer create any in photoshop or other graphic programs.
Do i have some graphic skills? These on people to decide. If people dont try,then will newer know if posses some graphic skills.

it's easy to tell who has graphic skill and who hasn't or who's willing to improve and who isn't.

take me for example. never used photoshop until i came here and i've never drawn anything before. at first my maps sucked but with each image i posted people noticed i was improving. it was easy to tell i'm willing to learn and finally create something decent.

then take antjo. he had no skills, just like me, and he posted a crappy image. then another one and another one and so on. no improvement whatsoever. it's clear to me that if he starts a map it should be locked straight away unless he leaves the graphics to somebody else.

But it's impossible to tell by the first draft alone if someone will suck or not. You can only tell after a few drafts - l3eater made steady progress with Baltic States, but the graphics weren't "good" until around version 3 or 4. It just took him a while to come to it. IMO, version 2 of that map was worse than version 1.

So you can't just prejudge newbs with bad first drafts based on graphics alone.

[t-o-m]

take me for example. never used photoshop until i came here and i've never drawn anything before. at first my maps sucked but with each image i posted people noticed i was improving. it was easy to tell i'm willing to learn and finally create something decent.

then take antjo. he had no skills, just like me, and he posted a crappy image. then another one and another one and so on. no improvement whatsoever. it's clear to me that if he starts a map it should be locked straight away unless he leaves the graphics to somebody else.

That's what i did, i came from this, to this, then finally to this.

I think its hard to tell whether people will stick through it, but if they persist in not taking feedback or the like - then the decision becomes easier.

[DiM]

DIM
well the fact that map making requires graphic skills most people don't have, the fact that coming up with a great gameplay requires a great knowledge of both xml as well as general risk rules and strategies kinda makes the map makers some sort of a selected group. i wouldn't call it an elite i would just call it a selected group.

Can you tell me how you know who have graphic skills and who dont have graphic skills?
I newer learn any graphic program,only when i come here,and i newer create maps,i newer create any in photoshop or other graphic programs.
Do i have some graphic skills? These on people to decide. If people dont try,then will newer know if posses some graphic skills.

it's easy to tell who has graphic skill and who hasn't or who's willing to improve and who isn't.

take me for example. never used photoshop until i came here and i've never drawn anything before. at first my maps sucked but with each image i posted people noticed i was improving. it was easy to tell i'm willing to learn and finally create something decent.

then take antjo. he had no skills, just like me, and he posted a crappy image. then another one and another one and so on. no improvement whatsoever. it's clear to me that if he starts a map it should be locked straight away unless he leaves the graphics to somebody else.

But it's impossible to tell by the first draft alone if someone will suck or not. You can only tell after a few drafts - l3eater made steady progress with Baltic States, but the graphics weren't "good" until around version 3 or 4. It just took him a while to come to it. IMO, version 2 of that map was worse than version 1.

So you can't just prejudge newbs with bad first drafts based on graphics alone.

well i never said a bad first draft should be the death of that map. in fact the system i suggested takes care of bad first drafts by providing feedback. and advice.

let's say 20 people come to the foundry and want to make maps. they start their threads. those threads are left to develop for a week. then they get locked and a committee (preferably made of respected icons of the foundry) comes and analyses each map. they look at the quantity of support and feedback, they look at the graphical updates and they way the map maker works. and they decide if the map is liked/disliked, if the map maker has the skills to do the map or not if the map is heading in the right direction or not, etc. then they weed out the maps that have no support, the maps that have an incapable map maker, and generally the maps that have no immediate future. then they split the remaining maps into several categories:
a. good to go maps. thread is unlocked and made sticky and progress continues as normal
b. promising maps. where the idea is good and there is support but something is not clicking right. they unlock the thread but nobody is allowed to post except the committee and the map maker and they try to iron out the problems. perhaps the map maker is stubborn and doesn't accept feedback or perhaps he is not implementing updates fast enough or perhaps the map is simply too complicated for the average poster and people can't provide enough constructive feedback. then 1-2 weeks later they decide if the map is worth continuing or not.

a promising map made by somebody who doesn't know photoshop falls in category B (bolded in the quote above). the committee works wit the map maker and helps him get the map into a better shape. then when the map maker shows willingness to learn and starts making better and better updates the map is given the blessing and it moves to the A category.

[Qwert]

Dim
it's easy to tell who has graphic skill and who hasn't or who's willing to improve and who isn't.

take me for example. never used photoshop until i came here and i've never drawn anything before. at first my maps sucked but with each image i posted people noticed i was improving. it was easy to tell i'm willing to learn and finally create something decent.

then take antjo. he had no skills, just like me, and he posted a crappy image. then another one and another one and so on. no improvement whatsoever. it's clear to me that if he starts a map it should be locked straight away unless he leaves the graphics to somebody else.

I just want to tell,that you must give people chance to try,and if first draft is bad,ok, waith second draft,third,well if 4 draft dont bring nothing improvment,then its need to tell these person that hes skills is low and that maybe need to learnd from basic with some very very simple, because sometime people can learn to create something good,even if not posses any graphic skills,but for that is need very very long period.

[hulmey]

Dim
it's easy to tell who has graphic skill and who hasn't or who's willing to improve and who isn't.

take me for example. never used photoshop until i came here and i've never drawn anything before. at first my maps sucked but with each image i posted people noticed i was improving. it was easy to tell i'm willing to learn and finally create something decent.

then take antjo. he had no skills, just like me, and he posted a crappy image. then another one and another one and so on. no improvement whatsoever. it's clear to me that if he starts a map it should be locked straight away unless he leaves the graphics to somebody else.

I just want to tell,that you must give people chance to try,and if first draft is bad,ok, waith second draft,third,well if 4 draft dont bring nothing improvment,then its need to tell these person that hes skills is low and that maybe need to learnd from basic with some very very simple, because sometime people can learn to create something good,even if not posses any graphic skills,but for that is need very very long period.

Look at brguy, his map (famine) is always getting better and better

[Incandenza]

...but there are an awful lot of cartographers pouring an awful lot of time into projects that quite frankly can't hold a candle to their best work...

Yikes. Maybe you should say something.

But what can I really say? No matter how well I phrase it, "quit dicking around with this bullshit and do something I think would be better" isn't exactly going to have the desired effect. And really, who am I to tell someone that their map concept is crap? Different people get excited about different maps. I'm sure there are loads of people in the foundry who couldn't care less if Trench Warfare ever gets quenched, but I'm not going to hold it against them...

I can think of about 10 members who mean something in the foundry. The rest I ignore. Edbeard and Incandenza are close to the top of that list. But this is a dull time in the foundry. It's just boring. Nothing fun going on. Pretty much 90% of the new maps suck. Andy never comes around anymore. New members probably have no idea why his name comes up so often. For some reason, the foundry has a lot of respect for that strange monkey. He can bring a little order to this place... when he's here.

Thanks RJ, and I think you've hit close to the heart of the matter. Borderline-absentee management isn't helping matters. Vesting supreme authority with one person was fine when the foundry was small, but now it's so huge and sprawling that most of Andy's posts are logistical in nature (forging, xml stamp, quenching, requests for current image and what not) and even those are pretty few and far between. I'm not looking to bash Andy, far from it, but I think the time has come for him to bring on a co-foreman.

I've thought about abandoning maps. Hell - it's been a few years now for me. Started Italy in 2006. But I keep doing it because I like it. It's a free hobby that gives me a skill. Accomplishments.

No, don't abandon maps! Yours are some of the best maps on the site (even tho I completely suck on them), and Iron Curtain is one of the breathtakingly few current maps that I'm at all interested in... In fact, I'm off to post in the thread right now!

[mibi]

Community management is something that is very difficult to 'learn on the job'. The best and most vibrant communities have the best and most dedicated community management team.

Conquerclub is going through some growing pains particularly in the map making department. The mere fact that the 'map selection screen' has stalled in the Design Comittee since February is testament to level of professionalism and dedication that goes on around here.

Personally, I think Andy needs to step-down or step aside to let someone else do his job. There is a lot of enthusiasm and goodwill that could be harnessed around here but there is no leader to do so. Even Lack treats this website like a side project sometimes. I always knew Lack was a little lacking on the business side of things, but smart decisions need to be made around here. I have been in and seen many business flounder and produce sub-par earnings do to a lack of managerial motivation and talent.

So yeah, the map selection screen needs to implemented pronto so people don't get overwhelmed with 100+ maps. It's really a disaster from a user interface and user friendly aspect. It even overwhelms map makers too. Who wants to be just 1 in a 100, when they can be say 1 in 6 Fantasy based maps, or 1 in 4 Conquest maps.

Also Andy needs to step it up. He makes about 1 post a day if that and often its not even in the Foundry. If he has other duties here that take away from his Foundry time or if he has real life issues, then he needs to get a co-foreman or just step aside. If we actually had a working foreman around here it would take so much hear off the CA and then they wouldnt burn out.

Action needs to be taken though, as no one likes moping around in the Froundry.

[hulmey]

This is directed to DIm, becuase he has not most vocal here. YOu just posted in RJ Beals thread

first of all sorry but i haven't read the thread so if it's been discussed ignore my post. Wouldnt it be common courtesy to read the whole thread? Now this isnt a bash in anyway and your views are probably more valid than most. But the thread only has 10 pages. You could have shown the enthuisim and decency to have read it before you commented.

To many people point the finger at others and then do just like them

[DiM]

This is directed to DIm, becuase he has not most vocal here. YOu just posted in RJ Beals thread

first of all sorry but i haven't read the thread so if it's been discussed ignore my post. Wouldnt it be common courtesy to read the whole thread? Now this isnt a bash in anyway and your views are probably more valid than most. But the thread only has 10 pages. You could have shown the enthuisim and decency to have read it before you commented.

To many people point the figure at others and then do just like them

well as it clearly says in the bolded part i apologized (thus admitting my guilt) and i also said my post should be ignored if it has already been discussed (thus avoiding to waste people's time to respond)

there's a big difference between what i did and what others do when they post something discussed 20 pages before and then they keep on wasting time requesting that instead of going back and reading why it was rejected in the first place.

besides rj's thread (which had 11 pages when i posted not 10) i also posted in other threads. in total i would have had to read around 30 pages. not only that it would have taken me so much time to do it that i would have probably not had enough time to post but because of the spam in some places (yes i browsed the threads) i would have probably forgotten what i meant to say in the first place

[gimil]

wow, alot of heat in here today.

Let me start by apologing for my lack of presence over the last few weeks. As many of you know I moved back to university last week. It turns out that BT had a f*ck up with connecting my new flat to the university network, thus no internet in my flat. I now have to make do with using intenet when I am in univesity which is an inconveninece.

Now onto the issue at hand.

I see many of you are unhappy directly at the CA's for our lack of presence around the foundry. All I can do is apologies for myself and tell you all that non of our C.A. team has lost motivation of will to work with everyone of you in the foundry.

It is great to see that when times are hard you guys (the foundry community) come together to show and voice your concerns publicly. You all know that we always listen to what everyone of you have to say.

As long as we keep this community spirit and desire to make the foundry a better place we can (and always have) worked together.

Thanks for everyones concerns I have read them all and will take them very seriously in proposing changing for the foundry future.

cheers,
gimil

[hulmey]

wow, alot of heat in here today.

Let me start by apologing for my lack of presence over the last few weeks. As many of you know I moved back to university last week. It turns out that BT had a f*ck up with connecting my new flat to the university network, thus no internet in my flat. I now have to make do with using intenet when I am in univesity which is an inconveninece.

Now onto the issue at hand.

I see many of you are unhappy directly at the CA's for our lack of presence around the foundry. All I can do is apologies for myself and tell you all that non of our C.A. team has lost motivation of will to work with everyone of you in the foundry.

It is great to see that when times are hard you guys (the foundry community) come together to show and voice your concerns publicly. You all know that we always listen to what everyone of you have to say.

As long as we keep this community spirit and desire to make the foundry a better place we can (and always have) worked together.

Thanks for everyones concerns I have read them all and will take them very seriously in proposing changing for the foundry future.

cheers,
gimil

Oh the irony, the last post was 2 days ago. But better late than never

[reggie_mac]

I'm new at the map thing, so sorry if i step on any toes, but i'd like to point out one thing
Look at the name of the site - Conquer Club, Club being the key word, this isn't a business, its not a professional league, its a club where people can come and hang out and play some risk like games and maybe dabble in creating a map as well, if we start locking down to much on what people can try to do then i think the site looses.

But how do we sort this.. well it comes down to process, and maybe how the foundry is laid out. I know its gone through a few changes recently, and maybe thats helping but could we break it down more? Like a sub forum for each stamp, that way if its in say the 'Gameplay' forum then maybe people will understand they should only be commenting on the game play, etc etc etc. Maybe then it would be easier to sort out what the CA's are doing, and who is helping them, thus hopefully allowing more time for them to focus in there specific areas.

I mean so far MrBenn is the only CA to comment on my map, im having some good discussions with other memebrs and its moving along, but it would be good to get some comments from the 'top tier' of the foundry just to make sure i am moving in the right direction, but as my map is in draft who would be responsible/best suited for this, the Idea stamper? the game play Stamper? the Graphic Stamper? .. so yeah, you see me reasoning for a further break down.... just an idea folks.

[TaCktiX]

The main Foundry handles both Gameplay and Graphics because the two often go hand-in-hand. Some people are better at commenting on graphics, and some are better at gameplay. A separate subforum to host each stamp individually would hurt both, as it would discourage posting "off-topic" content. Plus, you'd end up with a map that is reasonably balanced (Gameplay stamp), but graphically looks like crap (as people wouldn't comment on Graphics in the Gameplay-only forum, ideally).

Both Oaktown and Gimil have been busy with school as it has started up, and thus the only C.A. to comment is MrBenn, since he's explicitly assigned to keeping track of the Drafts forum.