Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

[Qwert]

by Kotaro » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:08 am

So basically, what nag and some others are saying, is that t-o-m should be allowed to continue, because he didn't do anything in the Map Foundry?

So if I come here, flame someone, should I be banned from here, but allowed to make tournaments? Post Callouts? Make Clans? After all, I only flamed you here.

That makes no sense. If t-o-m wanted to make maps, he should have learned what spamming is defined as, and not done it. Period.

Kotaro its look that you dont understand what we talk here. Nobody say that T-o-m have access to post here, well i say that need to alove Oliver and Cena rules to posted maps instead T-o-m. In Oliver case,he have idea and gameplay and T-o-m help with Graphic. Do you think that T-o-m in these way can spamming? I dont think so. He is permabaned, but i dont see nothing wrong with Oliver cooperation with t-o-m.

[OliverFA]

You know? What I find funny is that I am being asked to continue the map...

Is like telling a kid that Santa Claus doesn't exist and later expecting him to enjoy Christmas...

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

I know I'm not a regular foundry member anymore, but maybe I can try to help clarify it a little more.

First of all, the forums are an all or nothing thing. Just because you are banned from one section of the forums for doing something wrong doesn't mean you are allowed to continue to participate in another section of the forum. It's always been this way, with every forum banned user.

A lot of people seem to forget that the forums are a privilege, not a right. While I agree that the map looks really good, and it really bites how things had to happen, I think gimil made the right decision. Like it's been said time and time again, the cartos are still going to allow Oliver to continue the map if he desires, but the graphics can't be done by t-o-m.

Qwert, as for helping him develop maps in secret, you might want to read the new Community Guidelines that were posted since they state that posting for a banned member will probably mean you will join them being banned

[gimil]

You know? What I find funny is that I am being asked to continue the map...

Is like telling a kid that Santa Claus doesn't exist and later expecting him to enjoy Christmas...

I didn't ask you to continue the map, I ask you if you wanted to you could under the consdition a banned members isn't invloved as a developer.

[lgoasklucyl]

I think it's disgusting that individuals caught repetitively cheating can 'buy back in' for a mere 25$ and have full privileges again despite repeat offenses. Yet, someone who can positively contribute to the site cannot even help graphically on a map he started prior to a ban based on breaking forum guidelines. Is he allowed to bribe his way back in like all the cheats that are allowed back? How much would it cost him to regain his privileges like the rest of them? At least he will positively contribute if he is allowed to return, unlike the cheats who will continue to be caught over and over again.

[OliverFA]

I know I'm not a regular foundry member anymore, but maybe I can try to help clarify it a little more.

First of all, the forums are an all or nothing thing. Just because you are banned from one section of the forums for doing something wrong doesn't mean you are allowed to continue to participate in another section of the forum. It's always been this way, with every forum banned user.

A lot of people seem to forget that the forums are a privilege, not a right. While I agree that the map looks really good, and it really bites how things had to happen, I think gimil made the right decision. Like it's been said time and time again, the cartos are still going to allow the map to be made, just not by t-o-m.

Qwert, as for helping him develop maps in secret, you might want to read the new Community Guidelines that were posted since they state that posting for a banned member will probably mean you will join them being banned

Thanks for trying to help, Fuzzy Pengui. As it seems that some people don't have concepts clear, I want to say again.

I am not posting for t-o-m. I have the idea, and he does the graphic. so, if something, is he that is helping me, and not the other way. It's my map, not t-o-m's. However, it is being locked.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but the simple idea that I was just doing the task of messenger without adding anything myself is plainly offensive. I know that you didn't say it yourself, Fuzzy Pengui. You just repeat what others said. Well, the one that said it in the first place, is completely wrong.

So... are permabanned members banned from helping to make maps?

Also, I want to repeat again. I did not receive a single word on what was happening. Just my thread got closed suddenly. That is extremly unpolite, and pisses me.

[OliverFA]

I think it's disgusting that individuals caught repetitively cheating can 'buy back in' for a mere 25$ and have full privileges again despite repeat offenses. Yet, someone who can positively contribute to the site cannot even help graphically on a map he started prior to a ban based on breaking forum guidelines. Is he allowed to bribe his way back in like all the cheats that are allowed back? How much would it cost him to regain his privileges like the rest of them? At least he will positively contribute if he is allowed to return, unlike the cheats who will continue to be caught over and over again.

So, if you play nice, you are punished. And if you cheat, you can easily shortcut the rules.

[lgoasklucyl]

So, if you play nice, you are punished. And if you cheat, you can easily shortcut the rules.

Yes sir, apparently flaming has more negative affects on the site than creating multies, point dumping, and other forms of blatant cheating .

I second your notion of CC enjoying shooting itself in the foot. T-O-M being allowed to do graphics work in photoshop does not negatively affect the site in any way, shape, or form. In fact, CC is punishing itself in disallowing such a great map-maker from doing what he does best. Nothing like hurting your community to stand on your high horse

[OliverFA]

You know? What I find funny is that I am being asked to continue the map...

Is like telling a kid that Santa Claus doesn't exist and later expecting him to enjoy Christmas...

I didn't ask you to continue the map, I ask you if you wanted to you could under the consdition a banned members isn't invloved as a developer.

Ok, ok. I was asked if I wanted to continue with the map. No probs with terminology. I can rephrase my post if that makes you happy. From my point of view is the same thing.

[Qwert]

by The Fuzzy Pengui
Qwert, as for helping him develop maps in secret, you might want to read the new Community Guidelines that were posted since they state that posting for a banned member will probably mean you will join them being banned

Who Me? I dont help nobody to development maps in secret. I just say that he need to use email address and to not use hes t-o-m names,if he realy love to make maps,and i dont see nothing bad with that,its a good thing(i mean make a maps). Now we have situation where will any Oliver attempt to create map will be full observe and Oliver will be investigate every time,because he is cooperate with criminal and like rule say:

Posting for Vacationed or Banned Users
If you choose to make posts for individuals who have received a vacation or a ban, don't be surprised if you find yourself quickly joining them in paradise.

So these mean that he is guilty,and that he imediatly need to be punish for these crime,or maybe i dont read good these rule?

[RjBeals]

You know? What I find funny is that I am being asked to continue the map...

Is like telling a kid that Santa Claus doesn't exist and later expecting him to enjoy Christmas...

I asked - because you're one of the few carto's with a good noggin. I would feel the same if I was in your shoes. So much time goes into a map development. That thread is a big part of your life. Then to visit one day and see it locked has got to be a "disappointment" - enough to make you angry. But you've got to flip the situation and see it from gimils side (and the staff). I have nothing against tom myself. In fact he always gave good feedback in my map threads. The simple fact is though he abused his forum rights by spamming other forums, not the foundry - and so his posting privileges were taken from him.

Anyway - hopefully after the holidays you'll find a new cartos and continue development. You have a great idea. In fact, it's grand. It needs a better gfx artist anyway. You have a very complicated idea - and if the grx aren't there, you may lose people.

[OliverFA]

So, if you play nice, you are punished. And if you cheat, you can easily shortcut the rules.

Yes sir, apparently flaming has more negative affects on the site than creating multies, point dumping, and other forms of blatant cheating .

I second your notion of CC enjoying shooting itself in the foot. T-O-M being allowed to do graphics work in photoshop does not negatively affect the site in any way, shape, or form. In fact, CC is punishing itself in disallowing such a great map-maker from doing what he does best. Nothing like hurting your community to stand on your high horse

You know? The funny thing is that I really like this place. That is why I am more dissapointed than angry. Because I feel sorry for what they are doing for themselves. Fortunately this is just an entertainment for me. But for them it is supposed to way their way of living.

[lgoasklucyl]

So, if you play nice, you are punished. And if you cheat, you can easily shortcut the rules.

Yes sir, apparently flaming has more negative affects on the site than creating multies, point dumping, and other forms of blatant cheating .

I second your notion of CC enjoying shooting itself in the foot. T-O-M being allowed to do graphics work in photoshop does not negatively affect the site in any way, shape, or form. In fact, CC is punishing itself in disallowing such a great map-maker from doing what he does best. Nothing like hurting your community to stand on your high horse

You know? The funny thing is that I really like this place. That is why I am more dissapointed than angry. Because I feel sorry for what they are doing for themselves. Fortunately this is just an entertainment for me. But for them it is supposed to way their way of living.

Then perhaps they shouldn't act to turn members away. Losing tom and insulting you is a pretty big hit to the map foundry.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

I am not posting for t-o-m. I have the idea, and he does the graphic. so, if something, is he that is helping me, and not the other way. It's my map, not t-o-m's. However, it is being locked.

Also, I want to repeat again. I did not receive a single word on what was happening. Just my thread got closed suddenly. That is extremly unpolite, and pisses me.

I understand he was helping you, maybe I posted what I meant to say incorrectly. I think gimil and the other cartos realize this as well, that the map is yours, all the logic behind it is yours, but that t-o-m was helping you by creating the graphics for the map. The problem with this is the answer to your question...

So... are permabanned members banned from helping to make maps?

That is completely correct. Permabanned members are completely banned from participating in the forums. They can read the forums (I know you're reading this...hi t-o-m ), but they are not allowed to participate in any way shape or form. The only reason the maps that he and kyle created were able to be finished was because of how far they had advanced before their punishment. Besides, if they had been told "Sorry, you can't finish", there would have been a huge uprising (so it would have been a huge lose/lose situation for the cartos in my opinion).

I think your thread was locked because t-o-m was participating in the forums by having the graphics for a map he was helping with posted. I really like the idea behind your map, and I hope you continue (although I can completely see why you may not), but I think the thread was locked to clear up exactly how t-o-m was involved in the map. Yes a PM beforehand would have helped (but you were PMed when the thread was locked), but I think gimil did so to sort things out and get everything straightened out (and partially because of cena-rules' comments in the other thread regarding t-o-m having a map in the advanced stage, probably where the first misconception occurred).

Gimil and the other cartos make the best decisions in their eyes for the best interest of the foundry, and sometimes there are hiccups along the way and disagreements. I think he was probably in a lose/lose situation, both by leaving it open or by locking it.

I don't think you are offending anybody...it's nice to have a civil disagreement somewhere, and I wish more of the forums were able to carry such conversations

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

by The Fuzzy Pengui
Qwert, as for helping him develop maps in secret, you might want to read the new Community Guidelines that were posted since they state that posting for a banned member will probably mean you will join them being banned

Who Me? I dont help nobody to development maps in secret. I just say that he need to use email address and to not use hes t-o-m names,if he realy love to make maps,and i dont see nothing bad with that,its a good thing(i mean make a maps). Now we have situation where will any Oliver attempt to create map will be full observe and Oliver will be investigate every time,because he is cooperate with criminal and like rule say:

Posting for Vacationed or Banned Users
If you choose to make posts for individuals who have received a vacation or a ban, don't be surprised if you find yourself quickly joining them in paradise.

So these mean that he is guilty,and that he imediatly need to be punish for these crime,or maybe i dont read good these rule?

Maybe I misunderstood you Qwert. I knew you weren't helping anybody secretly create maps, but it sounded like you were for allowing t-o-m to secretly create maps and giving an idea on how he could do so without being caught. You aren't doing anything wrong that I know of, I was just making sure you knew the new rule since it sounded like you approved of him creating a map in private.

Because of the new rule just coming into effect and because the map was already in progress, I don't think Oliver has anything to worry about. However, in the future if someone posts for a member who is banned it does mean they will be punished for posting for the aforementioned banned member.

[owenshooter]

A couple of weeks ago, qwert and myself a little quarreling regarding my (*) map in the foundry.

so, why isn't this posted in the foundry, where all this is occurring?-0

[Night Strike]

If people are helping you with maps, then those comments belong in Foundry Discussion. Moved.

[gimil]

Unfortunalty since this is about the same thing being disucssed in the other thread im going to have to merge this one with that thread

[merged]

[edbeard]

a lot of you are acting the same way tom would

Oliver, it's obviously normal to be upset at the situation but you were given a meaningful explanation when it was locked. Let's look at gimil's post.

After some investigation, I have reason to believe that this map has been worked on (mostly or in part) my t-o-m. The official verdict on banned members making maps is simply not aloud.

For now this thread has been locked, and if oliver wants details he is more than welcome to drop me a PM and I will discuss the matter with him.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

it explains everything. you're making it out like it was locked with no explanation and you had to go figure out. As someone said, in other forums you would be banned for post on behalf of someone else and most forums don't have extensive rules like that (now to be fair, a first offense banning for that behaviour would be ludicrous and your situation isn't exactly the same. I'm just saying you're not being treated like a criminal). it's part of common sense. And, having him do the graphics for your map IS posting on his behalf. It's either that or dishonesty. Either you're posting your idea with his graphics or maintaining that those graphics are yours. Either way it's wrong. it is black and white like that.


I wish some of you would think clearly for a minute. the guy is banned. that means he is to have no part of these forums. to say he should be allowed to do a map is ludicrous because then by that logic he should be allowed to do ANYTHING in the forum (except spamming ) as long as someone else posts it for him. that seems like no ban at all. if you don't get that point then there's no point dealing with you because that is cut and dry


I think it was a bad policy to let him and kyle finish their maps while banned. Some of you pointed this out. However, that isn't an "A-ha" moment that shows CC is being unfair which some of you are trying to use it as. If they continue to do that in the future then you might be right. However, it might also be called generosity for allowing to finish something while banned but none of you would see it that way.


This is how a lot of you guys come off. You guys don't really care about right or wrong. You just care about getting to do what you want to do. And, anytime that is impeded you find ways to say it is wrong and unfair. That's not how life works.

[timmytuttut88]

Whatever happened to "doing what's best for the community"?

Mods, do you realize that if you let t-o-m do his map you would be helping this website. I ask anyone in this thread to name one way on how letting t-o-m make his map will hurt this website. ONE WAY. T-o-m was banned for spamming and trolling, so why can't he continue making his map. As others brought up before, reverend kyle got to continue his map when he was banned. Why can't t-o-m?

[Night Strike]

Timmy, t-o-m DID get to finish his map (Madagascar) after he was banned. They're saying he can't start a new map. And it would harm the site because it would set a precedent for other banned people to want back into certain forums by running a tournament or still posting their ideas. Why doesn't everybody understand that a forum vacation affects ALL forums?? There have never been exceptions to this and the admins aren't going to start now.

[Natewolfman]

If a murderer in jail wanted to get out for 1 day a week to plant flowers in a park to benifit the communty, would you picket for that too? consiquences are there for a reason, I liked tom, nothing against him, but he made far too many mistakes and was banned for it, unfortunate yes, but you cannot allow someone to get around the restrictions or else the site will fall apart... even if it does benifit the community

[nagerous]

I think belgium and research and conquer are slightly different kettles of fish. To flipside Fuzzy Pengui's argument, I don't think we can honestly say that t-o-m's involvement in research and conquer, which is purely graphical development has any linkage with the forums at all. The chief mapmaker, oliver, is the one doing all of the posting here, there is no posts in the thread, which say "posting for t-o-m".

[timmytuttut88]

And it would harm the site because it would set a precedent for other banned people to want back into certain forums by running a tournament or still posting their ideas.

Posting plain ideas is completely different from the other two since posting a plain idea isn't time consuming like a tournament of map is.

But how are tournaments and maps bad for the site? Aren't running tournaments and maps good? If someone is banned, we might as well let them help the site. I think of it as an added bonus. You don't have to deal with their spam AND they still make maps and tournaments!

[nagerous]

Timmy, t-o-m DID get to finish his map (Madagascar) after he was banned. They're saying he can't start a new map. And it would harm the site because it would set a precedent for other banned people to want back into certain forums by running a tournament or still posting their ideas. Why doesn't everybody understand that a forum vacation affects ALL forums?? There have never been exceptions to this and the admins aren't going to start now.

I don't think it would harm the site, on the contrary it might help deal with the multi issue...

You can't consistently antagonise the antagonist. Do you wonder, why CC has such a big multi problem, and why you had to banish about 5 people in live chat today? It was because, of the way this system is run. Perhaps, a better system would be one like The Carrot and the Stick. Where you offer rewards for good efforts to the community, done by banned individuals and punish bad deeds. Say if t-o-m flames in live chat, give him a time out there but if he wants to contribute by making a map, let him.. If an antagonist like tom is constantly pushed, he will just join the hoardes of all ready banned users who terrorise cc and live chat every day, because they have been pushed away by an over-oppressive website. I am sorry, if I am coming across like an ass, but these are my honest views on these issues and I do have CC's best interests at heart.