Combatting Foundry Elitism

[Incandenza]

I'm too much of an old hand for this silly discussion.

ahh but with 6 maps under your belt you cant go silent!

Actually, it's a perfect reason. These semi-annual conversations are circular, repetitive, and ultimately counterproductive.

[ender516]

I think a.sub is right: we need a better word. Being part of an elite (a group set apart by extraordinary skills) is a good thing; being elitist -- looking down on others because one believes one is part of an elite -- is not a good thing, particularly in egalitarian societies such as most CC members hail from. Perhaps the word we want is professional, not in the sense of being paid for one's work, but in the sense of a person prepared for work by extended study or practice.

I disagree...I don't think ANYONE would complain about the Foundry being professional, after all. I don't believe anyone is complaining at all about some of the mapmakers being ELITE...they absolutely are, and that's a good thing. The complaints are that the Foundry is elitist, which is a far different thing. A term which for me personally brings to mind "The Ivory Tower Syndrome" that occurs from time to time in educational circles. A loss of ability to understand things "outside of your sphere"...which in this case I think would relate to "having forgotten what it's like to be a new mapmaker" (or somesuch).

I have no problem with anything you said apart from "I disagree". I think I made just the points you did: compare the sections I just emphasised above.

[ender516]

I'm too much of an old hand for this silly discussion.

ahh but with 6 maps under your belt you cant go silent!

Actually, it's a perfect reason. These semi-annual conversations are circular, repetitive, and ultimately counterproductive.

Who better than an old hand to bring such a conversation to a quick resolution? I still think the muddle in terminology (elite vs. elitist) keeps this stuff going longer than it needs to, but some of the old hands fall into it. If we broke the back of that problem, maybe more people would reach agreement and get on the cartography.

[a.sub]

well lest address this in sections

1) is the foundry elitist
2) is that bad
3) how can we fix it

can we agree that the foundry does have levels elitism in it?
not bad elitism or good elitism but a form elitism

[oaktown]

These semi-annual conversations are circular, repetitive, and ultimately counterproductive.

Circular, yes. Repetitive, yes. Counterproductive... well, only if the time we spend talking about this is time that we would otherwise spend giving feedback to maps. Sometimes these conversations lead to some good ideas.

A.sub asks three questions...
1) is the foundry elitist
2) is that bad
3) how can we fix it

To question #1 I'm going to say what I've been saying in the other thread: the Foundry is not a living entity. It does not have a personality. By extension it cannot have personality traits such as "elitism." Thus the Foundry is not elitist, and the other two questions are moot.

So, if the Foundry is not a living thing, what is it? It is a place in which a collection of individuals convene to create a product.

Some of these individuals have spent more time in the Foundry than others. Some individuals have made more maps than others. Some individuals are better at using Photoshop than others, and some are simply more artistically inclined. None of this constitutes elitism, it just means that some individuals are Foundry veterans and some are not.

The "elitism" comes into play in the way that some individuals conduct themselves. Some individuals say demeaning and insulting things to others. Some believe that they do not need to listen to criticism, especially when it comes from new voices. Some individuals think that they should get more attention than others. Some indivduals think that their shit don't stink. This is elitism.

In addition to accusations of elitism, there are ocassional accusations of cronyism... so and so's maps get stamped faster than mine, mapmaker X has the CA's ear and I don't, etc. And there are many, many other offenses that I would add to the list of poor conduct that I have seen in the Foundry in my tenure, including (but not limited to) immaturity, egocentricity, excess of pride, aggression and wrath, incivility, harassment, thoughtlessness, and lack of good taste.

I just wrote in another thread that the Foundry is different than other CC forums in that it is a place where real work is being done, and that everybody who posts in the Foundry needs to recognize that they have some responsibilities. Maybe what we need is a Foundry code of conduct so that the behaviors that we most abhor are discouraged and even punished. But you know what will happen if we come up with a list of conduct that the Foundry won't tolerate? The rest of CC will call us "elitist."

[Incandenza]

I just wrote in another thread that the Foundry is different than other CC forums in that it is a place where real work is being done, and that everybody who posts in the Foundry needs to recognize that they have some responsibilities. Maybe what we need is a Foundry code of conduct so that the behaviors that we most abhor are discouraged and even punished. But you know what will happen if we come up with a list of conduct that the Foundry won't tolerate? The rest of CC will call us "elitist."

I'm right there with ya on this. But there are a couple of implications to that. One is that sometimes the responsible post is the one that says, well, "this sucks." Not stated like that, obviously, but like I've said before, sometimes people need to understand that without a lot more time and effort, their map simply isn't going to cut it (or even worse, that their very premise/theme/subject is fundamentally flawed).

The other is that perhaps mapmakers have an unrealistic expectation of what the average CCer can really bring to bear intellectually in a map thread. If nothing else, I would say that your average Foundrarian is smarter than the av-er-age bear, certainly more so than a similarly-sized random sample of CCers, or even forum-goers.

And yes, the preceding statements are incredibly elitist and not very considerate of people's feelings. Who am I, or anyone, to tell someone that their map simply won't cut it, or that a poster's criticisms are shallow and unfounded?

The response would invariably discuss minimum standards of quality, and around and around we go.

Personally, I've never been a fan of the way the word "elitism" gets thrown around when what the thrower really means is "I need you to lower your standards so I can get into your club," but then again, I am, as a friend of an ex once so succinctly described me, an overeducated asshole.

[a.sub]

well put oaktown, but being a living entity doesnt entitle it to be free of elitism, in my opinion. A country could be elitist if only the rich could vote. Now what we have here is a direct contradiction between the two of us, both of use sound logic, yet both of us cant be right.

I just wrote an essay on this, its about how human logic is illogical because of the role perspective plays in. What you define as elitism and what i define as elitism are probably completely different.

The root definition is that elitism is when some things are treated differently than other things. However no ones definitions of elitism will be such becuase we all have things added on to it. One may say that elitism is that when some people are treated differently without a sound and unbiased reason. So allowing only one race to vote would be elitist, but only allowing the intellectuals to vote on intellectual topics arent elitist, tho it may be immoral. On top of this there is the catch that human thought is not readily put into words. there isnt a single thought (including definitions) that can be fully encapsulated in words, pictures, etc. This creates a massive boundary in our discussion.

thus i think we should work around this. The first part of the word elitism, is that it contains a slightly negative aspect to it (im sure we can agree on that at least right?) Well the fact that the foundry is being accused of being elitist means that some people are perceiving unfair treatment amongst people, the keyword being unfair. Obviously if Andy sends a message to Lack, and i send a message to Lack, Andy's will be read first, but this is not unfair, Andy worked his way up to that position. This means that the accusers, who ever they may be are thinking that this unequal treatment is not warranted.

For the sake of advancing this post i would like to point out the obvious in that nothing is perfect in anyway. Which forces us to realize that the foundry is not perfectly equal, nothing is. In everything that exists we have to assume that there is some form of elitism that exists simply because of the nature of things and the reliability of imperfection. The accusations thus only follow when the level of imperfection reaches a level that is either intolerable or significantly above average, in the perspective of the accuser. This means that in order to be accused of elitism one must not be elitist at all but simply appear as such to the accuser.

So what can we conclude so far?
that we cant define elitism so we must use a root and use common sense as much as possible
that the foundry is elitist as is everything the to what extent is the question
that someone out there believe the differences to be unfair

this allows us to begin the process of useful discussion
and for the sake of such i will set aside my belief as stated in the above post and stand as the devil's advocate. As of now and as far as the rest of this post and this post only* i will be arguing that the foundry is elitist in the sense of the aforementioned root and needs to be fixed.
*i may partake in a similar attitude later in the discussion again to help push through the discussion

* * * * *

The foundry, despite being a massive wealth of productivity in the CC world does have a massive draw back that stems the inflow of creative talent and ideas. The elitism that does so is very damaging to the system, and before attacking whether or not we have elitism i will be setting the agreeable common ground of the negative aspect of elitism simply by taking the extrema as the example.

If elitism is allowed to grow in the forum them we are killing all new ideas that may flow in to the foundry one day. Say for example a new comer enters the world of cartography with some great photoshop talent and brilliant ideas. If we are to stem this person with tons of red tape and bog them down with the anchor of uncaring attitude, then we have just killed off a possible map maker. Which for all we know could have been the next Gimil or WM. Now while understanding that this is an extreme that one lower degrees of such an case will be probable to happen i think we can agree that this stance is the foundation on which this debate ensues. Do we need extra regulation in order to prevent such an event or would we negatively impact this source of wealth?

In order to show the existence of elitism i will refer only to the attention given to mapmakers of varying levels of "Fame" for a lack of better words to phrase it. If at this very moment a new comer were to make a map, the odds are that it would be ignored, not because of a lack of interest but because of an expectation of failure. I dont think it is unreasonable to say that we are easily swayed to believe that the infamous mapmakers of this time are infallible in their ideas an concepts. If a well known map maker were to make a suggestion that was unpopular or held little interest the community will almost immediately jump to a defensive stance and discuss ways to improve the concept into something that is enjoyable and usable. How ever if an unknown CC user were to try and make a map that is unpopular are we honestly expected to believe that the community will take a similar route? Absolutely not. The community tends to become a lot more critical of the said person and thus shoots down the idea and walks away. They do not act in such an elitist way because they hate the new comers, or because they are evil, but because of a simpler human emotion. We are taught to conserve our thoughts. No one would bother to ask a mountain to move, simply because we know that there will be no response, there will be no fruits to our labor, no matter how convincing we are. Thus when we reach a moment as explained above with the different map makers, what happens is we tell out selves that there is no point is giving the new comer the appropriate attention to get the map done because they will get bored and leave or just quit out of a lack of caring. We would much rather use our useful commentary in a place where it is less likely to die off in a lack of effort. This, if i may say so myself, is justified in that most new map makers lose their eager start and leave. However this does not justify the action as it also prevents new comers with actual innitiative from getting far int he system

That is the elitism in the foundry.

I will post how i believe we should combat this after i get a glass of water, im fucking pooped!

[wcaclimbing]

I will post how i believe we should combat this after i get a glass of water, im fucking pooped!

excellent post a.sub
can't wait for part 2.

[Incandenza]

A quick point about cronyism, and a.sub's hypothesis (shared by others, obviously) above that veteran mapmakers get more attention:

I can only speak for myself, but when a mapmaker whose maps I have enjoyed in the past posts a new idea, of course I'm going to pay more attention to that idea than another, all other things being equal. But the mapmaker's rep isn't enough to keep me interested in a map I find boring and/or uninspired.

[a.sub]

thank you wca

so now for part 2


So the past post was simply me showing that elitism was in fact a major part of the foundry system. It stems growth of new cartographers and could possible damage the system as a whole. Imagine, the once again extreme example, of a foundry where the respected are retiring simply because of real life, and justifiable so, all the while no one new is coming in because we are unappreciative and almost deterring to the new comers of the foundry. Once again i would like to establish this as a base. This is the extreme case on which we can conclude that if allowed to grow the side effect will be a varying degree of this, and can expand as close to this as dangerously as possible.

Now the major driving force of the elitism that inevitable exists here is cause by the all too human thought process of, why waste my energies on a lost cause. Despite the usual response of, allow us to be more respectful now lets move on, we are yet to see any progress in countering such forces. People are just as deterring to new comers with heavily negative commentary and degrading posts. I have seen unique gameplay styles in MS paint, but were rejected imply because of the latter property of the map. Were the graphics terrible? Absolutely, but the amount of strategy involved was so well placed that if it got the graphics boosts it would have been great. Now, knowing that i will not plow through the dozens of lost maps to find this, please take my word that this person was shot down quickly but comments that concentrated on the negative aspects instead of informing them of the better qualities that they should have expanded on, whether my memory is great, the concept still stands. No one, not even myself, offered any graphics advice, or even to do the graphics ourselves. why? because it wasnt our map and since it was a new comer it was obviously a lost cause. At the risk of making this much to dramatic for progress i would like to add that this person never returned to the foundry.

What happened there?
Firstly we had person of great creative mindset, and great ambition with little talent working in an already elitist area. The prejudice was already stacked against him. Even if the graphics were decent, odd are people would simple shrug it off in order to concentrate on the more popular maps in the hopes of making their comments meaningful.
Secondly, the comments were not constructive but rather insulting in a nicely phrased manner. Im sure if the creator was given a lot of advice and direction and then told to retry on a map, we could have had one more map for CC to enjoy
Thirdly that the creator her did not have enough skill to plow their way through the foundry. lets be honest with ourselves, if he was loaded with negative comments now, imagine the final forge, it would be not more than a blood bath!

this i think should be summarized into two things:
Preemptive prejudice (at risk of wasting one's comments)
Lack of Skill (including the experience which can go MILES in the foundry)

So where else in CC do we see people who need help with their skill, and need to gain some sort of rank to stay afloat in the community?
Society of the cooks.
Special thanks to our wonderful moderators we have the society of the cooks which allows for anyone to come in through their doors to learn the wonderful skills they need to fight their way up the CC ladder. I propose a similar thing:

My proposition is as such
i say we create a new forum for new and ambitious Cartographers that would like to participate. It would be like a pre-drafting room stage that is fully voluntary. However the reason this would exist is so that the new members can post what they have, and prove their skill, perseverance and ambition, however they would be amongst the other who are simply posting ideas that popped into their head 3 seconds ago. Why such a new forum? because it has a twist which could potentially revolutionize cartography. in that forum, older members can sponsor a new cartographer. Acting as a mentor like in the society of the cooks to the new cartographers. By posting here first, new and incoming map makers can get the advantage of having a big name and a teacher.

this is the best way to end the elitism in the CC Forum because it addresses both problem in one mighty blow. By doing so, new members will have a mentor, thus the lack of skill is all but gone, In the event they need to accomplish something difficult, they can be taught how soon and by someone who is knows how. At the same time, people will very gladly post into these new sponsored maps because if an infamous map maker is going out of his or her way to promote a new comer, then they know the map is going to go far int he foundry. In fact even if the new comer bails out last second, the veteran cartographer can finish up the loose ends. Thus we have no lack of skill and no prejudice assuming failure.

Does this end the elitism? No, i will not be naive enough to say that elitism will go away. there will be new comers that wont get funded because of a lack of presentation. However what this does do is it focuses the elitism into a more productive form. Now instead of it being a battle of new members against old, we are forcing new members to fight amongst themselves for the attention of the Map makers that CC holds in high thought. meaning that instead of the elitism causing us to lose track of great artists that just dont have a niche in CC, it is causing us to actually look directly at these people. Imagine this, a map made by an unknown name, but is backed by some great cartographer that made that last map u really had fun playing. wouldnt you go look at that one before you looked at the map that was made by some guy that doesnt have a backing?

now i would like to re emphasize the point that i am not getting rid of elitism in the foundry, but forcing it to exist mostly amongst new members, so that we create our own natural selective force which will actually help us find new talent and ignore those who only stop by for a quick thrill.

-A.Sub

p.s. its 12:30 here so im going to take off my devil's advocate hat and get some shut eye

[a.sub]

oh and just to prove elitism doesnt exist
everyone should go visit my map
btw its here http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=241&t=77141

[oaktown]

You make a lot of good points and you make them well, a.sub, but here's where you lose me...

If at this very moment a new comer were to make a map, the odds are that it would be ignored, not because of a lack of interest but because of an expectation of failure... If a well known map maker were to make a suggestion that was unpopular or held little interest the community will almost immediately jump to a defensive stance and discuss ways to improve the concept into something that is enjoyable and usable.

If institutional elitism (which is what you are talking about above) exists in the Foundry, than the assumption would be that the "elite" mapmakers - those with the most time spent in the Foundry and with the most maps under their belts - would be actively supporting and protecting their fellow "elite" mapmakers.

This is NOT what happens in the Foundry.

Rather, it has been my observation that the "elite" mapmakers are routinely critical of each other and their work, while it is the less seasoned and less experienced members of the Foundry who are blind to the needs and flaws in the work of the veterans. If you look through one of my threads, or cairnswks', or RjBeal's, or edbeard's, or gimil's, most of the posts by novice foundry-goers look like this:

forge it

While on the same page of this same thread a more veteran member of the Foundry writes this:

Could lighten the legend text for the Challenges and Cities to match the lighter/softer icons above the text, or vice versa darken the icons a little to match the text.

Is this elitism? No. It's idolatry. And this is going on all over the Foundry. The veteran mapmakers don't give each other a free pass, its the less veteran mapmakers who do. Meanwhile, I'd say that I am more critical of edbeard or gimil or cairnswk or qwert than the average poster, because I have especially high expectations for their maps.

The reason you perceive there to be elitism is that the veteran foundry-goers also go into map threads by new mapmakers and dare to be critical as well, while less veteran members are more likely to post fluff that makes the mapmaker feel good... here are two posts by sailorseal from the conquer crater map thread:

Love it, set up perfectly

I would like to see more special territs and maybe starting positions

Great idea!

And two posts by me from the same map thread:

alright, here's my honest opinion...

The graphics have come a long way. The visual side of the map still lacks some sophistication - the black legend is uninspired and makes poor use of space, the text on it looks quite bad - but some nice work has been done on the look of the crater. The elements are getting there, but the bright primary colors don't work for me with the dark background.

That said, I think that the graphic efforts are being wasted on an idea that is mediocre at best. Let me go back to what I said a over month ago...

Thematically, I'd love to see you guys some up with more than just a bunch of craters. Seems to me that the crater theme was an afterthought that you chose just because craters are round and can be clustered together like your mock-up. You could just as easily have gone with such equally bad ideas as a game of marbles, a bowl of cheerios, or a fruit salad.. call it "Capture the Pear!"

So now you've got a single big crater with some colored cotton ball blobs and a Conqueronium in the middle. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'm not a huge fan of maps with entirely fabricated back-stories, especially when the map could just as easily be something else. "Somebody spilled a box of Lucky Charms in a pot hole - eat the purple horseshoe and win!"

Assuming I loved the graphics and the idea, we'd get to questions of gameplay... putting 30 on the center space means players will probably opt for take-outs rather than the victory condition. In fact, I'd say most games go to whomoever is lucky enough to roll well early and hold a bonus. Really, why would anybody fight their way inside when you can just mop up the outer ring and win the game?

As for starts, you wrote that "each player will have 2 territories on the outer ring, spread out from others as much as possible. " I'm not sure this is possible given the current XML limitations of the site. You can code starting positions, but the number of start territories any one player will have will differ based on the number of players. If you code eight starts of two terit's for eight player games, each player in a four player will start with two of those start positions, which means four territories.

Note also that since every start position will be next to somebody else (you can't really space out 16 starts when there are only 20 outer rings territories) the players who go first will be able to knock out later players before they get a turn. This is an undesirable starting condition.

just a thought, but if you zoomed out a bit from the crater and showed the surrounding terrain it would give a sense of scale. Right now it could be a crater the size of a mountain, or a pot hole in the street.

Also, if you zoomed out you could set the scene - a city devastated by a meteor's impact would look pretty damn cool, and immediately put players in a certain frame of mind. Ooh, and players could start on the OUTSIDE of the crater and make their way in... holding a portion of the city would make more sense than holding a quarter of the outer ring of glowing spheres.

Suddenly you have a story...
New York (or whatever) has been devastated by the impact of a massive meteor. Now scientists are racing to be the first to collect rare specimens (spelling?) of the extra-terrestrial material left in the crater. But beware of radiation (you could have players bleed armies as you approach the core).

Hmm?

Tell me, was I being elitist by pointing out areas of need and then coming up with suggestions? Some would say yes, and that I was overly harsh, but maps aren't going to get better if all we do is go into a thread and say "Perfect! I love it! Quench!" And when maps don't get better they sit around in the Drafting room for months, and then people say that the Foundry is elitist because we only advance the maps made by veteran mapmakers. So if I post my honest opinions I'm being elitist, and if I post nothing I'm ignoring the newbs and thus being elitist.

I guess from now on I should just go around posting pleasant but useless crap and everybody will like me.

[sailorseal]

Maybe the elitism is calling two members who have been here for a year new?

[sailorseal]

Also oak the thing is there that sometimes someone needs a little encouragement

[owenshooter]

I just wrote in another thread that the Foundry is different than other CC forums in that it is a place where real work is being done, and that everybody who posts in the Foundry needs to recognize that they have some responsibilities. Maybe what we need is a Foundry code of conduct so that the behaviors that we most abhor are discouraged and even punished. But you know what will happen if we come up with a list of conduct that the Foundry won't tolerate? The rest of CC will call us "elitist."

i think this is a great idea and an actual start to helping people better understand the foundry and it's regulars. it is a far better fix than moving it up the forum list... this is a great idea. what sort of things would you place on this code of conduct? and eventually, if more people agree with your idea, you will obviously need a separate thread. great idea... why am i not shocked that it is from THE Oak?!-0

[AndyDufresne]

Hm, oaktown...and others---we had a post somewhere about "Giving and Receiving Feedback" ---thinking about that now, that almost seems like it could fit into an etiquette guide...remember what I am talking about?


--Andy

[a.sub]

hmmm oak i completely agree with what you are saying, a new comer does tend to post useless crap, but i do find that some useless crap can be nice. as a new map maker myself, when someone posts
"nice map"
i dont get anything out of it, but it is great encouragement that someone likes what i am doing
how about a suggestion for veterans for a try
instead of commenting like you would for other elites
comment on minor changes that can be done then work your way up to the more nick picky stuff
it takes longer to get done but will still encourage them to go on


however for the elitism of attention given to new comers i still stand by my suggestion of a new optional forum to gain support of vet cartos

[captainwalrus]

Part of the reason that it seems eliteist is that people don't realize how hard it is to make a map. I have tried to make a couple maps and they all have failed, somethimes because I get tired, but mostly because there is no support. This can seem a little unfair when there other maps getting tons of comments, and new people don't realize that their map is way worse. Usually if there is a good map, even by a new mapmaker, then it still gets a good reception. I think that this keeps out lots of really bad maps, and keeps it so we only have good maps on CC. I would rather have a map by carnis or somebody else who is realy good than have one of my bad maps quenched.

[oaktown]

Maybe the elitism is calling two members who have been here for a year new?

Sorry sailor (and you whitestanz), I didn't mean new... but I've never seen either of you counted among those who are accused of being "elitist." That's the distinction I was trying to make, but in my haste I used a poor label. I recognize both of you as being active in the foundry and dedicated to seeing good work done - yours just happened to be the first two examples I came across of succinct posts by the non "elitist" foundry goers.

A lot of good points brought up since my post...

Encouragement: it's good and needed. New mapmakers need encouragement. But I would like to see encouragement be accompanied with suggestions for next steps... just saying "awesome map" might make a mapmaker feel good, but it doesn't help them get out of the Drafting Room.

Foundry code of conduct: I said that partly in jest, because as soon as we create our own special Foundry rules of conduct we'll be accused by the GD people of being Foundry snobs who think we are better than everybody else. (See how we can't win?)

Veterans giving "minor feedback": part of why I turned in my moderator bagde was so that I could tell mapmakers what I think needs to be said without having to consider how my comments sound coming from an "official" source. Using the example of the Conquer Crater map, above, I felt that there was a fundamental problem with the map idea and that it was never going to get the kind of Foundry-wide support that those mapmakers want and deserve. I could have told them "nice job, try muting the element colors a bit" and let them keep spinning their wheels on a map that will never get stamped, or I could tell them what was wrong with the basic direction they were taking and help them on their way to the main foundry.

How hard it is to make a map: yeah, it can be quite an ordeal. For me the hardest part is when you get to that point where you have to decide if the project is worth committing the next six months to, or if I shoud scrap it - and for the record I've scrapped way more maps than I have quenched. The reason it is so hard is that when I start a new map there is usually a breif period of blind support, followed by a long quiet stretch in which I wonder if I should go on. It's at that point that I wish somebody like Cairnswk, gimil, Widowmakers, or MrBenn would just leave me a post saying "yo, oaktown, this idea is steaming pile - consider finding yourself a better project to work on." That way I'd know it was time to drop it. We need some steaming pile guys around here - and we need people to accept when their map is crap.

I'm just blathering on about any old thing now... again, the conversation gets circular. What was your veteran support forum idea, a.sub?

[TaCktiX]

Hm, oaktown...and others---we had a post somewhere about "Giving and Receiving Feedback" ---thinking about that now, that almost seems like it could fit into an etiquette guide...remember what I am talking about?


--Andy

Written by myself and edbeard, and sitting in AADOMM for a few months now as I recall.

[a.sub]

my idea is simple, we restructure the foundry with one new forum

right now the process is
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
the red places being possible starting points

i say we allow for another forum to make the process easier for new members but has no extra burden on older members that just wanna make a damn map

it would be
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
OR
Mentor Finder Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
*note how the drafting room isnt a starting position

the Mentor Finder forum is an ideas page for new members, only instead of a thumbs up their main goal is to impress a vet member to monitor, help, teach, and guide them as the co author.

[ender516]

my idea is simple, we restructure the foundry with one new forum

right now the process is
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
the red places being possible starting points

i say we allow for another forum to make the process easier for new members but has no extra burden on older members that just wanna make a damn map

it would be
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
OR
Mentor Finder Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
*note how the drafting room isnt a starting position

the Mentor Finder forum is an ideas page for new members, only instead of a thumbs up their main goal is to impress a vet member to monitor, help, teach, and guide them as the co author.

Nice concept, but you still have Drafting Room in red in the sequence starting with ideas and suggs. Would it still be a starting position for those eagles who dare, or no? Perhaps some posts in ideas and suggs could be encouraged to take a side trip to Mentor Finder, while others were sent directly to Drafting Room ?

[a.sub]

well i figured advanced map makers could jump strait to making a draft

and obviously a user can be moved to the mentor forum if asked

[ender516]

Okay, it's just your little footnote said "*note how the drafting room isnt a starting position". It would be for some folks and that's fine.

[oaktown]

Hey a.sub, for starters there is a minor glitch in your flow chart:

right now the process is
ideas and suggs Drafting Room Main Foundry Final Forge Start a Game page
the red places being possible starting points

The Ideas subforum is not a part of the mapmaking process. It CAN be, as in "I have an idea that I want to discuss before spending time on a draft," but most maps start in Drafts.

So rather than altering a step, you are proposing that we add a step, but only for new mapmakers. Veterans get to skip a step and thus move through the Foundry faster... which is exactly what folks are complaining about when they point to the foundry and cry "elitism!"

Apart from aggravating the problem of foundless cries of elitism, I see two problems with a Mentor Finder requirement. First, who are the mentors? I spend about as much time in the Foundry as I have to offer... yes, I could better use my time if I didn't waste two hours every week debating whether or not the Foundry is elitist, but I'm not sure that I have the time or desire to hold somebody's hand through the mapmaking process. This is a serious commitment.

The second problem is that there will be map proposals that don't pick up a mentor. Let's face it, most of the new map ideas are bad, regardless of who is coming up with them. I've had some losers in my time, and we've got some really bad ideas floating around right now. So, when a new mapmaker posts his intention to make a map of the male reproductive system and no veteran mapmaker volunteers to assist, what happens? Is there a committee that tells him that his idea is crap? Is there one Foundry Helper whose job it is to break the bad news? Because at some point a rejected mapmaker is going to go postal and start posting threads around CC crying "Why did the Moon map get a mentor and I did not? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? The mentor system doesn't work and the Foundry is elitist because nobody commented on my map."

Oh, and that last quote includes lines culled from actual posts... why make shit up when you don't have to?

Anyway, gimil and I have been talking for a while about a less time-intensive system that might give assistance to new mapmakers... if I can pull myself away from these conversations I'll devote more time to it.